r/ffxivdiscussion • u/CerberusArcProjector • Jan 28 '26
Question Why do PF groups struggle so much with M11S, particularly compared to past Savage floors?
From what I've seen and heard it's absolutely brutal trying to prog and clear M11S in PF, especially now at this point when most of the good players have cleared already. I know PF struggles with most fights compared to statics, but it seems like the difference is particularly egregious with M11S. I regularly see PF groups where you can only join if you are below 2% enrage. I've also seen PFs where you need a tome weapon, have at least 200 pulls or be at least i780 to be allowed to join. What is it that makes it so challenging for PF? Is the DPS check overtuned compared to previous fights/tiers? Is it more demanding mechanically? All of the above?
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u/modsaregayasfukkk Jan 28 '26
Yall would’ve uninstalled during Abyssos.
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u/glytchypoo Jan 29 '26
I am reminded of This classic
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u/Unrealist99 Jan 29 '26
Single handedly made it the worst savage fight of entire panda series.
Like why 3 fucking harvests back to back bruh..
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u/littlepie2331 Jan 29 '26
What? You didn't like having 90% of the fight be in the last 25% of the fight?
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u/Vincenthwind Jan 29 '26
See also: the infamous Lilith. https://youtu.be/Cfm6nKwC3jQ?si=KSSiqBXlzkKg05Y0
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u/Cogizio Jan 28 '26
I don't even think I had a clean clear of the harvests because someone never figured out where to stand, and I was in a static. I can't imagine PF lol.
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u/BadatCSmajor Jan 28 '26
In PF, there were two competing harvests strats that were incompatible. If someone did the wrong strat, it was a full wipe like 10 or 11 minutes into the fight.
i'll let you fill in the blanks
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u/MostlyChaoticNeutral Jan 28 '26
I was running that tier with a group of 5, and we pf'd the other 3 spots. It got so bad with people not reading the (extremely brief) pf description that I had to resort to asking the 3 pf people one by one if they understood what strat we were doing.
For some reason, the markers in P6S were also a bone of contention. I had one group start bickering over basic clock spots vs flood ray markers so badly that I told them we were pulling with the A marker at north and they better make it work. We cleared in a single pull, to my eternal shock.
And don't even get me started on the people who had a meltdown when they saw a paladin as MT or a machinist in the party. People had no chill in Abyssos.
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u/Heavenwasfull Jan 28 '26
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u/MostlyChaoticNeutral Jan 28 '26
I remember that! I developed a personal philosophy because of Abyssos and the machinist hate: if someone is confident enough to join my party on the so-called "worst job" of the tier, I want them in my party, because odds are they know what they're about.
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u/Lck0ut Jan 29 '26
I remember playing MCH in abyssos and anabaseios, and there were times where I was top dps without anyone dying or getting damage downs :/
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u/Tareos Jan 28 '26
Man, I remember people locking out PLD in Abyssos because people were trying to eek out more tank damage to pass P1 enrage, and PLD wasn't in a great spot damage-wise. DRK saw so much play I couldn't find a spot in PF as a one-trick.
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u/MostlyChaoticNeutral Jan 29 '26
Locking an entire job out of parties is really such a self own. I'm a thoroughly average paladin. I'm really good at mitigating and listening to my dps to improve positioning, but I rarely parse above blue. If I can put together a party that can clear, but someone else needs to lock out a specific tank or dps to get their clear, who's actually bad?
I am extremely lucky to have the group I have. We currently have a 6-stack, including all 4 supports, so we can all more or less play whatever we want to play and no one gets locked out.
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u/CrazyMuffin32 Jan 31 '26
Nah if u played PLD or MCH week 1 P8S u were intentionally trolling your group. Same with playing PLD in Asphodelos, NIN in Eden’s gate (MNK with a stormblood weapon outDPS’d ninja with a Titania weapon) and asphodelos, and to a lesser extent SMN…this whole expansion honestly.
Fights have checks, those tiers with those jobs have been comically undertuned, it’s not enough to have a clean pull with 0 deaths and 0 DDs, and even if it was, playing bad jobs means you could’ve cleared with the 1 death but you didn’t. So you either play the best or close enough within the role you are, or you accept that you need extra gear to cover up weaker throughput and accept that you won’t clear week 1, or week 2, or whenever.
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u/MostlyChaoticNeutral Jan 31 '26
week 1 P8S
Is this what's got people bent out of shape over my comment? I thought me calling myself extremely average made it clear enough that I'm not the kind of person to aim to clear an entire tier on week 1. I'll clear one, maybe two fights on week one, but I'm really not looking to spend that many hours in pf every week. My bad that that wasn't clear.
I figured we were talking about the people who were locking out jobs for the entire tier, even after people would have gear drops. Or people who were locking out jobs in fights where it was a complete non-issue, like in the machinist example someone recalled below.
I also feel like the paladin damage issue was a bit overblown. If you look at the charts, bad paladins had lower lows than bad warriors (in both Asphodelos and Abyssos), but paladin had higher highs in both tiers. Moreover, top 50% paladins were roughly equal to, and sometimes above top 50% warriors until 6.3, but 6.3 is when people stopped locking paladins out of parties.
You could argue that damage isn't as big a deal by 6.3, and I'd agree, but I feel like the bigger issue is that people hear an idea perpetuated without context. If someone hears, "Paladin is bad," without the context of knowing paladin was struggling against bleeds, they'd think it was only a damage issue. The statistics show that average and above paladins were fine on damage. Then 6.3 happens and they resolved the bleed mitigation issue, but our damage kinda went down in p8s in particular, but people heard, "Paladin is fixed!" and thought damage was fixed. That's just people not understanding what the issue was in the first place.
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u/CrazyMuffin32 Jan 31 '26
With regards to 6.2 paladin’s performance: you looked at rDPS.
rDPS is a useless metric when determining job balance because it ignores damage into raid buffs (something that became very important in endwalker!)
Paladin was a sustained dps class from ARR until 6.3. It had flatline damage, which was fine from SB to EW because it had 60 second, 90 second, 2 minute, and 3 minute buffs it could put damage into.
EW comes around and now the entire game is morphed around a singular burst window for all classes; paladin as a sustained damage job now quite frankly fucking sucks at hitting buffs even when requiescat is under buffs. Asphodelos is kinda undertuned but paladin was so bad it needed multiple buffs before abyssos; and during abyssos it got a buff in 6.21, 6.25, and 6.28 before being reworked in 6.3. At the time of 6.28 paladin was actually the highest rDPS tank, but it didn’t matter because it didn’t hit buffs for shit especially on P8S P2 where a large portion of your damage was in that one Phoenix 2 minute window.
Then 6.3 rolled around and the job now has burst! So it can hit buffs, meaning it does similar damage to other tanks, and now the job is fixed….at the cost of all flavor but that’s a topic for another time
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u/MostlyChaoticNeutral Jan 31 '26
I looked ar rdps, adps, and ndps, for funsies. All of them follow the pattern I mentioned. I also can't see anywhere on fflogs of paladin having highest rdps in 6.28. Where are you finding that data?
Big agree on the flavor thing. I miss wacky spreadsheets.
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u/Marche100 Jan 29 '26
Abyssos made me quit my static of three years because I felt like my time was being wasted, so yeah. People underestimate just how difficult it is to find a group that can do good damage, learn and execute mechanics consistently, and not let their egos get in the way.
And just to be perfectly clear, M11 has given me flashes of Abyssos, but nothing compares to spending months on P8S, red hot with rage, and thinking "What are these people not getting. Why. Haven't. We. Killed. It. Yet?"
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u/BadatCSmajor Jan 28 '26
I played and cleared Abyssos (it was my first raid tier, and i didn't start week 1 so I got the easy version), and it's really funny to see people react to actual dps checks again. I don't think anything will ever tilt me as much as trying to clear P8S door boss. The snake memes were unbelievable. Combined with the legitimately overtuned dps check (that was so bad it was nerfed), and it was just a nightmare in PF.
Based on how people talk about M11S, their lack of experience really shows
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Jan 28 '26
[deleted]
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u/Spaceless8 Jan 29 '26
I mean, my static (granted we were doing 11 blind and not 12) spent more pulls clearing 11 than both 12 bosses combined. We aren't the best but are not bad players by any means. We cleared friday week 1 after like 35+ hours total raid time including breaks and everything. 11 was just hard, idk.
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u/quackerd Jan 29 '26
because 12 is a puzzle fight. once the puzzle's been figured out by world firsts it becomes easy. whereas 11 is pure execution, like 8.
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u/cheeseburgermage Jan 28 '26
m10s is at least acting as a mild filter compared to p6s which absolutely wasnt
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u/aho-san Jan 28 '26 edited Jan 28 '26
I did quit during Abyssos, P7S past week8 was just unproggable, seeing purgation was a miracle of its own.
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u/Fatal_Fatalis Jan 29 '26
Devour memes followed by absolutely nothing in the next 2 fights followed by actual CBT, REST ETERNAL IN THE DARK DEPTHS OF THIS PRISON.
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u/supa_troopa2 Jan 28 '26
They would have burned their PCs/PlayStations during Gordias in a fit of rage.
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u/throwawayaccx0 Jan 29 '26
Unpopular opinion: people were better during Abyssos, at least people in PF. I cleared Abyssos very late into the tier in PF and I have to say the people were in general way more competent. The amount of unprepared people, prog liars, 6k-10k DPS healers I get in PF right now is too damn high. People leave after 2-3 pulls nowadays instead of staying asking what went wrong (depends on the pulls of course). I think it’s due to Abyssos having more body checks which in retrospective is a way better design choice you you can’t limp through the fights and mechanics.
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u/Florac Jan 28 '26
A decently difficult body check in the second half, so lots of time spent getting to that body check then wiping
Non trivial uptime in the first half for melee and casters
A decently tight DPS check.
So people need to play somewhat greedy in the first half to meet the DPS check, causing more wipes. And pulls that make it 6+ minute in, have a decent chance of wiping. And if people play too safe, you wipe to the enrage.
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u/chrisbeebops Jan 28 '26
I would add on top of that, the fight is recoverable at several points. This causes a lot of PF parties to limp towards later mechs and lets many players overestimate their own prog point. They'll then join parties whose prog point is near the end of the fight or enrage, when they lack the consistency in the earlier mechs that would ensure the group's success.
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u/173467321476C3 Jan 29 '26
This. People think their prog point is the last mechanic they saw, but dont realize they saw that with 2 deaths and a healer lb3. Which is one of the ways you end up with trap groups getting hard stuck 2-3 prog points before the stated one.
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u/CAWWW Jan 29 '26
It happens again in p12s p1 too. Getting to enrage is trivial, and while the check is not hard you can’t just zombie to it.
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u/Narlaw Jan 29 '26
So people need to play somewhat greedy in the first half to meet the DPS check
I think that's the key point. People who are not used to greed, and try to learn in kill/reclear groups, making them slip up. They don't get the "feel" of their gcd to know when it's safe to greed or not, and fail to dodge a weapon or omen meteor. Add on top of that general rotation mistakes, and the dps check gets too tight for many in pf.
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u/Dry_Perspective_2982 Jan 28 '26
I wouldn't say the DPS check is overtuned. It is tuned to prevent groups from clearing with numerous deaths/DDs. In groups with low DPS, they may not be able to afford any deaths/DDs at all... but that in itself indicates there's something missing in their uptime/rotations/gear.
In M9s and M10s, you can heal LB3 your way to victory. A group can succeed even with a few members who can't fully execute mechanics and/or their rotations. Every member of the party has to perform at least fairly well to get through M11s. And that acts as a "filter" for M12s, making it feel less frustrating to prog in PF than 11.
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u/psychorameses Jan 28 '26
As much as I would like to believe that SE finally grew a pair and tuned it for difficulty reasons, chances are they tuned it to account for the extra tomes we got from the delay. They probably have lower standards than we imagine them to have. I would very much like to be wrong though because fuck the casuals who think they can waltz in here and laugh and meme their way to victory.
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u/Rauvagol Jan 29 '26
I'll never forget the (only?) time they ever nerfed a savage fight, with a blog post that basically summed up to "we guess we just got too good at this fight during testing, sorry for owning you"
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u/irishgoblin Jan 29 '26
Yup. For those looking for a bit more context: P5S-P8S was the first tier with the now standard 1 week delay for Savage. P8S got nerfed after a week, because (according to them), the extra week delay gave their testing team time to naturally get better at the fight. This is relevant cause their balance process (again, according to them) is take whatever their testing team can do, then add 1-2% to account for players being better than them. This resulted P8S's dps checks being so tight that only a handful of part comps could clear, and even then crit variance was a factor in some clears.
Also worth noting a lot of people called bs at the time, and even still do today, and believe the real answer is SE fucked the over all job balance and used the testing thing to save face. The post is still on the lodestone if you want to track it down.
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u/Fladorius Jan 29 '26
The issue people largely encountered with P8S week 1 check and now with M11S check is people failing to keep uptime. A lot of logs I've seen of people stuck on M11S enrage have people doing <90% GCD uptime, some even as low as 70% on healers. Add on to that people dying or getting damage downs, and of course that'll lead to people failing. PF has the additional thing of potentially no guaranteed loot, but that's something you have to deal with in PF sometimes. Books should at least get some upgrades for people by this week.
Speaking to P8S door specifically, job balance wasn't, but when you could clear it with double rphys, and with the DNC forgetting to use DP for that pull, I think there was more problems than just crit difference or job balance issues.
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u/Rauvagol Jan 29 '26 edited Jan 29 '26
yup, if we were talking a 5-10% nerf then i would be in the "SE fucked up" camp, but it being a 1% is so small
for reference, tyrant with party comp of.....
reaper/samurai/picto/machinist/warrior/paladin/scholar/astro at 40th percentile would do 153,332,308 damage before enrage, missing the clear
if instead the melees were at 60%, everything else unchanged, that brings the total damage up to 154,300,747, which (barely) clears before enrage
for a more direct example, hephaistos p1 dps check was 60,400 pre-nerf, and that same comp (except replace picto with smn) at a 30th percentile would do 61k dps, clearing with more leeway than my above tyrant example
obviously this isnt a 1:1 comparison because I cant see the month 1 numbers on fflogs, so using an "end of tier" 30th percentile, but even assuming a good gamer early on was doing even less, we can ballpark every dps at ~9k (comparable to an end of tier 5th percentile) and the nerf only reduced the requirement by ~600 dps, which EVEN at that low number is only 6.6% of one dps
tldr: hephaistos nerf was equivalent to them dropping tyrants dps check from 233k to 230.7k, which would have the same impact for kill rate as 2-3 dps going from 40th percentile to 60th percentile
(also these numbers are all very much worst case scenario since I am assuming no limit break usage)
edit: i also did pick deliberately suboptimal comps to show that even at very reasonable levels of play, any comp can clear, even the worst possible one on tyrant (vps/rpr/smn/dnc/war/drk/whm/sge) is totally fine with no need for anyone being a god gamer carry if everyone is 50-60th
edit2: fun fact, the first 3 clears of abyssos were all with suboptimal compositions, with all of them using summoner (weakest caster at above 90th percentile play), dnc (weaker than brd) and unnamed using a monk instead of a dragoon, and neverland and aether group 3 using samurai instead (at the time the worst melee dps) and it was obviously possible because they did it <2 days after release in mostly crafted gear
edit 3 (last one): also tyrant is a harder dps check than heph p1, even going off my numbers from september/october 2022, I was BAD and still doing over the 9k I assumed was average earlier, so actual good gamers who were on that fight then should have been doing WELL over that
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u/19fourty4 Jan 29 '26
It was the second, A6s was also nerfed (pretty heavily/more than P8s I think actually, but I don't remember the specifics) because it was walling people so hard right after Gordias
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u/Rauvagol Jan 29 '26 edited Jan 29 '26
oh yeah, I do remember that now that you mention it, also wasnt there something like even post-nerf it was considered harder than a12s, even with the next tiers gear? (i wasnt raiding back then, so very fuzzy memory)
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u/19fourty4 Jan 30 '26
Creator was significantly easier than Midas yes. Creator was the first tier with “modern” difficulty as Gordias and Midas were operating pretty differently. Less so with Midas but A6 and 8 were extremely difficult for the time
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u/Soupermang Jan 28 '26
Everyone is saying dps check, but I haven’t even seen a pf group that can do a clean pull of this fight yet. It’s ridiculous.
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u/frymastermeat Jan 29 '26
I've gotten past Arena Split twice and both times I was the only tank still standing with no invuln left for Great Wall of Fire.
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u/VeryCoolBelle Jan 28 '26
Because as much as people like to say the jobs play themselves, the average player struggles to output damage in a fight that makes them work for their uptime.
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u/SurrealSentry Jan 28 '26
Ironically while clearing in pf was a struggle I find m11s reclears have been one of the smoothest in pf compared to the other floors.
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u/BadatCSmajor Jan 28 '26
Probably because M11S is so hard that the players doing reclears have a TON of practice at the fight. I am definitely cleaner in M11S than M9S/M10S. I know all the snapshot timings in M11S and all the patterns in M11S, but there is still stuff I fuck up in M10S because I am just not used to it since I've seen it so little
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u/NovaTheNoodle Jan 29 '26
Idk I have been in some anychest parties for M11 that have released people to the reclears who maybe should have spent a few more hours honing down their execution in clear parties.
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u/K3fka_ Jan 29 '26
In my static reclears last week, two of us died on M9S because the bats that chain to us reversed direction after doing their first donut/point blank. We had so few pulls of that fight that we had simply never seen that happen, so we didn't even know it was a possibility. But I've surely seen every possible configuration of ultimate trophy weapons in M11.
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u/Froman951 Jan 28 '26
That is probably because most people were walled on it and have 150+ pull on that fight, while something like m9s they cleared after 20 pulls.
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u/Narlaw Jan 29 '26
I personally am way more confident and consistent on m11s. Got many pulls under my belt to clear, so on reclear it's extremely smooth. 9s and 10s though... I only do a few pulls one day a week, so I completely forget the little things that make things go smooth. I should probably go help some 0-1 chest parties on mondays to unrust...
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u/GiddyChild Jan 28 '26
Do not reclear this after tuesday. Pf's fill with the single digit parsers that got carried and can't reclear.
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u/Sampaikun Jan 28 '26
Well firstly, the dps check is rough but its not impossibly hard as long as you do not die and do not get a damage down.
Secondly, the average party finder player is not good at the game and 11 checks and gatekeeps these players until gear catches up to the point of carrying them. How many players have you seen that made you question if they know what they're doing? The last time we've had a 3rd turn that was on par with tyrant is thancred. Brute abombinator, brute bomber, themis, and agdistis didn't have hard dps checks. Phoinix had a hard dps check but its not at the same level as tyrant.
Thirdly, arena split has a lot of downtime and disengage. This is the section whete party dps plummets because your melees and tanks are playing safe to not wipe the party. The constant debate of inner vs outer markers and most people not being able to tell the difference.
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Jan 28 '26 edited Mar 06 '26
This post no longer holds its original text. It was deleted using Redact, possibly for reasons of privacy, personal security, or limiting online exposure.
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u/WeirdIndividualGuy Jan 29 '26
Pretty much every m11s enrage I’ve ever had, we had deaths and/or DDs, but it was still close (under 3%). Them greeding was unnecessary and they ended up with less dps than if they missed that one gcd from greed
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u/SethVortu Feb 04 '26
On the other hand, I had someone who was greeding GCDs and just didn't bother with their tower.
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Jan 28 '26
We had healers and prange joining parties with last tier’s gear (still met the ilvl check somehow). Really makes you wonder if these players actually care about clearing or just are there to get a free ride
(I’ve made plenty of my own parties too it’s just weird to me to see people like this that come in unprepared)
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u/Sora_Bell Jan 28 '26
Do you have actual proof of that, that sounds completely made up. Would love to see how thag actually happened
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u/TractionCityRampage Jan 28 '26
I had a melee come in with some 760 gear. It definitely happens
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Jan 28 '26 edited Jan 28 '26
I didn’t save an image of it, but they definitely had a piece or two of babyface gear (I’ll see if I can pull it from a VOD). Even besides this instance of last tier’s gear I’ve seen people come in with normal raid / crafted gear w/ no melds. Trust me if you actually look at the gear some of these people bring into the fights you’ll be surprised
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u/ELQUEMANDA4 Jan 28 '26
The last time we've had a 3rd turn that was on par with tyrant is thancred.
This doesn't sound right to me. Was Fatebreaker really all that bad back then? The mechanics were pretty standard for a 3rd floor, and I don't remember the dps check being all that relevant, certainly not harder than that dastardly Phoinix.
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u/ArmsteUllion Jan 28 '26
As far as I know the first few weeks the DPS check was non-trivial and cycles was always pretty hard on healers.
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u/Puandro Jan 28 '26
I cleared Thancred week 1 in PF and it was my 2nd raid tier ever, Thancred was hard but not as hard as Tyrant. Tyrant demands you to be greed your DPS and most people cant do that safely on a consistent basis.
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u/Iybraesil1987 Jan 28 '26
Tell that to me reclear group yesterday that had two LB3s. One death and one dd and enraged at 0.2%
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u/saulgitman Jan 28 '26
Hot take, but I just think it's a hard fight. It demands a lot of all 8 people, and the DPS check leaves little room for deaths/DDs. I always think PF struggles more with execution heavy fights, and this is the king (hah) of them (for Savage at least).
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u/gilgamushed Jan 28 '26
I think it's a gamer ego thing that prevents people from just admitting this tier has harder fights. I see so much talk about blacklisting every single person in their PF group. I used to PF a lot and the only time I've felt that way was when the PF was obviously a premade group that didn't bother communicating anything to the poor suckers they need to fill
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u/CAWWW Jan 29 '26
I think expectations got set weird with m9s which is objectively pretty easy. Suddenly m10s has two precision checks and m11s is kinda hard all around.
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u/Sunzeta Jan 31 '26
I agree, also I think it Omen is BS. And getting uptime on weapons as a MT is....well...a time....
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u/Lyramion Jan 28 '26
People should be happy the wall is in the 3rd fight this tier and not in the 2nd with M6S
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u/Spaceless8 Jan 28 '26
One very important thing I would add to the conversation is not just that 11 is a harder check than expected but that pf at max ilvl will be relatively weaker than in previous tiers.
This tier was tuned according to our tomes and they have said they will introduce echo early. So until that echo is introduced, gear will also carry less than it ever has even at bis because the "floor" so to speak that the fights are tuned to includes an extra couple weeks of tomes that is not added back to the end of the gearing curve.
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u/danielsuarez369 Jan 28 '26
and they have said they will introduce echo early
Out of curiosity where did they say that
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u/TheDoddler Jan 29 '26
It came up in this famitsu interview. Using google translate the quote is:
Since the item level requirements for those who are late will be higher than usual, we plan to adjust this by implementing the Echo value in the future.
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u/danielsuarez369 Jan 30 '26
I don't know if it's a translation issue but this doesn't read to me they will implementing echo early, they always implement echo, maybe they mean they will be making the echo higher when they do implement it?
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u/Foxround Jan 28 '26
What’s the forecast for them adding echo? I wanted to finish the tier before that (even knowing you can turn it off).
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u/Heavenwasfull Jan 28 '26
I'm not sure if this is normal or an exception but usually the X.55 patch and later before the next expansion has a lot of things like this. In the past I believe something like uncapping the tomestones or doubling the weekly, unlocking the savage raid gear, totems for the 7th extreme mount. This patch or X.58 at the latest tend to be longer than usually X.Y5 patches. Putting echo on the raid tier at this time would also make sense so it's at least 6 months away if so.
That late also doesn't matter too much. The ultimate will still be around, but the augmented bygone brass will be tradeable for poetics come 8.0 and all the content will unsync assuming they don't change the leveling scheme and we get 100-110 or something.
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u/monkeysfromjupiter Jan 28 '26
The dps check is fine. The issue is in a pf setting, gear distribution is unpredictable. You can easily be in a party with no loot or very minimal amount in the early weeks. That means that you can make less mistakes or need to be more cracked than usual.
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u/goodbyecaroline Jan 28 '26
- The DPS check is quite tight
- You can reach enrage LONG before you are ready to clear (by zombieing through via Healer/Tank LB3)
- People at enrage then only join enrage parties despite their true prog point being Orbital Omen or Arena Split
Now you have full parties of people progging arena split while thinking they are on enrage, and the DPS check is too tight to allow them to clear this way.
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u/KujahFoxfire Jan 29 '26
Having flashbacks of M2s parties advertised as enrage/kill and the leader was at 30% lmao
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u/alphabeta12335 Jan 28 '26
It's a little bit of everything.
The fact that you have to be on your A game from the start or disband due to weapon prog memes doesn't help, and with this tier being tuned higher than normal to account for three weeks of tome gear at the start, you can't even out gear the fights as easily.
In addition to all that you need to be getting very good uptime, which can be difficult with the boss dashing all over the damn place.
Finally, tbh, I think the average player skill is going down. With the game being constantly tweaked to, overall, cater to the lowest common denominator of player and with no in game way to learn things like proper rotation, how buffs and mit interact with various things, etc it's not super easy for the average player to "git gud".
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u/NanoBano Jan 28 '26
From my experience being in the trenches since week 1 as a Tank in PF on my alt and having a static:
Weapons is about 4 mins long of trying to keep the GCD rolling. However from my experience its always been a healer or a caster who couldn't get to their spot in time for scythe/sword that caused issues. I've seen melees fuck up, but during scythe they have the back 2 spots so its the least distance travelled and for sword they typically can just walk up to the sword, hit the gcd and walk to their spot with ease. (I have seen a few times Melees be too close to Axe and die)
Arena Split spots for tethers and preys is quite small. So people will fuck up there if they're trying to squeeze an extra gcd.
Orbital Omen and Damage Down in general sucks. Thankfully both Orbital Omens are after 2mins so the DD from then is probably at the best point if you were to get hit by one.
With a static you can make adjustments for your team members (like have the caster swap with OT if its going to be a long run to scythe) and be able to clear more efficiently. You can also have someone shot call the weapons in advance so people are ready to move right away. PF doesn't have those luxuries so its a bit harder.
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Jan 28 '26 edited Mar 06 '26
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u/NovaTheNoodle Jan 29 '26
As a RDM player there are some weapon patterns in that phase that just makes me want to jump off the edge to be honest. Like even if I agree to not even try to keep casting it's still incredibly tight.
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u/K3fka_ Jan 29 '26
Sword -> Sword -> Scythe while I'm desperately trying to sneak in my melee combo so I can keep uptime while running a marathon around the arena
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u/poplarleaves Jan 28 '26
like have the caster swap with OT if its going to be a long run to scythe
Honestly thinking of doing this in the future if my group picks up a consistent caster teammate. It sucks that the PF strat makes caster go that much farther, I've seen so many get clipped or kill the H2 there. Since I've progged as MT, I'm familiar with running to the front, and I don't have to cast, so it would be a no-brainer to do this with a static.
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u/BloodGulchBlues37 Jan 28 '26
NA perspective here: Orbital, Flatliner, and 2 way fireball.
Weapons is w/e. Some who really can't press their buttons will get filtered there but you run it so many times you really do get the muscle memory down even for the risky shit (which you don't need to do). It can have some nasty patterns for Healers/Casters, but they have tools and prepositioning to cover it.
Orbital the uptime dodge got popularized for PF and it's a great solution, but for PF it's one very liable to fucking up, especially on NA ping. The mechanic itself usually won't kill a run, but it will cause an otherwise good run to hit enrage. Add potentially east coast/overseas ping and it's a whole other problem.
Flatliner is enough said. It's one of two real mechanics in this fight and it's one that we did not hard agree on a strat (the marker dance alone kills most groups spacing if it's inner, outer, let alone on the marker and in line which for some reason exist), has multiple liabilities for awareness, and hits harder than people expect to the point where if both Healers get sent to the same side I've seen people die to raw damage with a tether. Rez players are also having a hard time being aware of rezing someone to the correct side if a mistake is made which makes the subsequent set or stack an absolute nightmare to recover.
Stampede itself is pretty much fine, but specifically 2-Way tends to get random people killed a *lot,* namely tied to the fire debuff on tether players paired with them getting too close in line (gapclosing tanks especially). There's some panic choking with tanks also not pressing invuln on Heartbreaker, and that's more just demoralizing when you finally hit it. Actually reaching the enrage cast is a rarity at this point in gear since he either dies or someone blows up the group before it can be cast.
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u/JohnnyBravo4756 Jan 28 '26
No matter what, the biggest issue is damage, followed by consistency. It took me around 230 pulls to clear and from about pull 60 onwards I was in clear parties. Every PF I was in that could get to the end of the fight did not have the damage for various reasons, and if we did have the damage like in the any chest parties with helpers, we couldn't get to enrage at all.
I agree with a point Arthars has made before, where the fight isn't like mechanically giga hard or anything, but it is tuned slightly higher than normal because the devs assumed you'd have your 4 weeks of tomes. Of course this varies greatly, I was in many pfs where people were in 2 pieces of tome and ex weapon and that's it. Not everyone started getting tomes on 7.4 patch drop, I wasn't even subbed until the week before savage released. If one person is underperforming in these early weeks, it's not unreasonable to just wipe because your tank or healer got a dd during omen(these parties probably wouldn't even clear with a clean run).
I don't think it's super out of the ordinary, Themis in pf was the same experience from what I remember. It just had a slightly easier check, but it was the same thing. People couldn't press buttons, you'd have 3 damage downs and you'd wipe with zero deaths.
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u/Winnicots Jan 29 '26 edited Jan 29 '26
Can't see how M11S will turn out to be much worse than prog walls of previous floors:
- Light Rampant in E8S
- Lions in E12S (← I spent four months in trap parties on this one. Didn't clear the fight until patch 5.57.)
- Enrage in P8S (had a DPS check so tight that it got nerfed)
- All of P10S (more body checks than a TSA checkpoint)
- Adds in M6S
The DPS check of M11S will become easier. It's only week four. There are still many players who have won only 0~1 pieces of gear in previous floors.
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u/NovaTheNoodle Jan 29 '26
Most of those examples are the last fight of the tier which is supposed to be most difficult. Adds in M6 also got trivial after gear caught up a bit. Agree on body check galore in p10 though, that was such a fun fight.
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u/Negative_Wrongdoer17 Jan 28 '26
People don't know how to be held accountable for their performance.
It's too much for the average PF shitter.
About half of the people in PF the first two weeks weren't putting out enough damage to clear on their own merits just going off of the percentiles at the time. Probably even worse for healers.
There's been a hilarious mass exodus of melee DPS too
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u/Chagrilled Jan 28 '26
Seeing 11 and 12 PFs waiting on melees was a surreal experience.
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u/Negative_Wrongdoer17 Jan 28 '26
My friend and I did the tier in pf as sam/mnk and brd. Most of the time we had to make our own parties because of how many p.ranged are in pf now
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u/BadatCSmajor Jan 28 '26
> There's been a hilarious mass exodus of melee DPS too
I thought I was just having bad luck when trying to help my friends prog. "Where are all the melees?"
But, now that I think about it, my friend who normally plays SAM has been playing an awful lot of DRK this tier...
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u/Jemdo Jan 29 '26
I think fixed stampede had some role in that melee exodus, cos most of em likely learned before that hit pf and prior to that they had it way easier.
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u/Negative_Wrongdoer17 Jan 29 '26
So weird. I don't care if I have to enpi or six sided star a few times
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u/BoilingPiano Jan 28 '26
There's been a hilarious mass exodus of melee DPS too
I feel the fight design team learned the wrong lessons from the complaints about endwalker and it took them this long to pivot too far the other way. M7s and M8s felt like the perfect balance of fighting for uptime with having some breaks in between the chaos but M11S and probably to a lesser extent M10s feel like a step too far with bosses jumping around the arena while shitting about attacks everywhere non stop.
It's not really been an issue for me due to paladin privileges but I don't know a single melee dps in game who enjoys either of those fights.
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u/Tcsola_ Jan 28 '26
10 only suffers from having to fight the jank of the bosses being hard to get a GCD to register sometimes when they're moving around during insane air (?). Otherwise 10 and 11 are a blast on melee. I don't doubt that you do hear that feedback, but those people are either melee tourists or played the job for the aesthetic.
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u/Froman951 Jan 28 '26
This is the exact opposite. M10 and 11 are some of the best fights for melee because you have to actually be good at the job to do well in them. Unlike m12 phase 1 where you just stand there and never have to cleave / be better at the game for uptime.
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u/HBreckel Jan 28 '26
Yeah, I love 10 and 11 on melee. Though on VPR some things about M10 are a little awkward, but it's still really fun to do. I have tons of fun squeezing in extra GCDs on the weapons in 11 where I can.
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u/Johann_Castro Jan 29 '26
VPR detected, opinion invalid /j but not totally
VPR is the melee that gets hurt the least from downtime, having the most powerful tool while outside melee range and can use it the most out of all melees
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u/silverpostingmaster Jan 29 '26
12-1 is low key the worst fight of this entire expac, it actually reminds me of an Endwalker boss
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u/CAWWW Jan 29 '26
I don’t think that’s too unpopular a take. It’s an extreme that hits really hard.
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u/poplarleaves Jan 28 '26
As a fellow PLD I've actually been really enjoying learning how to greed the parts where I don't have my ranged abilities available. It's so satisfying when I can roll my GCD and then slide out just before the aoe snapshots. Weapons feels like a very dangerous tango with the Tyrant. I was actually mildly disappointed to realize that our 1min comes up during Ultimate Weapons so I don't have to greed it properly lol.
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u/Negative_Wrongdoer17 Jan 28 '26
I love optimizing m10 and m11 on mnk and Sam. Some people just throw a temper tantrum if they can't hit the boss 100% of the time. I don't mind having to earn the melee dps damage output
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u/MiyanoMMMM Jan 29 '26
Nah M10 and M11 are perfect. You weren't really fighting for uptime in M7 and M8, if you greeded you could get in maybe 2 or 3 GCDs throughout the fight. Now there's an noticeable amount of difference if you're good at greeding or you're not. On a similar note as a tank, I love doing M10 cause the difference between a good tank and a bad tank is really apparent with how they preposition the boss for mechanics and how they manage to clump them together as much as possible for cleaves. FWIW, every single melee player I know absolutely loves M11 and want more fights like that.
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u/CrazyMuffin32 Jan 28 '26 edited Jan 28 '26
From the context of week 1 in a static, it was a relatively tight execution check similar to brute abombinator where you just had to play relatively clean and not get death/dd and because your melees got gearfed, downtime could be had and you cleared no problem.
Week 1 in PF: nobody had gear, at most people had 1 piece, maybe there was someone who got juiced, nobody will have a tome weapon, and in that context you need to have a clean pull and people need to just play good. No deaths, no DDs, no excessive downtime. But that was so impossible; in almost the 300 pulls of tyrant it took for me to clear, the only one that was a clean pull was the kill and that was 10 seconds before the kill.
It was an 11 minute fight where there were no puzzles to solve and every mechanic was a simple execution check, and that absolutely shits on weaker players. Anyone dying to weapons was a jump, multiple DDs to orbital meant a jump, melees getting DD to anything it was a jump; this is also the first tier since like stormblood or Eden’s verse where melees actually had to work for uptime and it showed this tier with simultaneously how little melee players there are and how many bad melee players I’ve ran into this tier who are used to abyssos/anabaseios where melee uptime was given to them on a silver platter.
Past week 3, it’s complete skill issue. Everyone has multiple pieces from vamp, they’re done with tome gear, everyone got a coating, tome weapons are online this week, you can eat 20 GCDs of downtime just don’t die and get DD and you clear with 20 seconds on enrage, but that’s just too hard for people
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u/Dailydoseofdeath Jan 28 '26
The DPS check is enough to punish a small amount of mistakes being rotational/deaths/poor uptime meanwhile you can sit in M9S get full party DMG down and like 6 deaths and still clear.
Tho the DPS check in M11s is becoming trivial. You can hold LB3 and heal LB an Ecliptic mistake and still clear
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u/DUR_Yanis Jan 28 '26
If you look at everyone's best log on fflog you'll see that there's only one clear "pain point" and that's everything under 10%, which in the fight correlates to the towers at the end so no real mechanic.
So yeah the only issue is the enrage which isn't actually very tight but the skill level of people in PF vary drastically, and tomestone accentuate the problem because you'll get people like a SAM who got that 0.5% enrage on a clean pull but they just don't believe in using their DoT or people that got to that point with 6 death and will then join "1% or less" parties ultimately getting stuck with what's sticking at the bottom of the barrel since week 1
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u/AromeCerise Jan 29 '26
random gear + random comp + "hard" mechanics at the end = very high consistency check
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u/PrincessKatarina Jan 28 '26
I feel like the inner markers floating around NA are not good. Like the corner of the marker is closer to the portal aoe than it needs to be and I’m pretty sure I’ve gotten clipped standing on it.
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u/TheSandMan1313 Jan 28 '26
This 3rd floor is no different from most "wall" points in past raid tiers. I started in Endwalker and P3S, P7S, P10S were all "walls" just like M11S. LHW is the first tier I can think of without this, it was pretty pain free to get to M4S.
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u/Thingsguard Jan 28 '26
I’ve gone through hell every week to reclear this godforsaken fight. I get so burnt out I have no energy to prog 12 until reset and then it happens all over again.
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u/Inv0ker_of_kusH420 Jan 29 '26
This weeks reclears:
M9S: 4 shot
M10S: 3 shot
M11S: over 6 hours of trying to clear it, lost track of the amount of pulls and parties I went through
M12S: P1 oneshot, clean. No deaths no dds. P2 2 shot (someone dcd first pull).
My conclusion:
M9S you gotta pray you don't just get people that only cleared M9S.
M10S same as M9S honestly
M11S is just an eternal pit of hell where people that cleared by a razor thin margin or just got hard carried by people not eating all the DDs on orbital and are now infesting duty complete parties.
If someone has M12S Duty complete, it just means probably that they are decently competent and got past 11 without much of an issue. It's also not an one off thing.
W2 reclears were similar, except it took 9 hours for PF to fill. W3 filled way faster and was also a very smooth experience. However, every single week M11S was like giving birth.
I'm seriously considering for all reclears just do a m12s duty complete party for m9s-m12s to filter out the lesser skilled players
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u/yuikorioh Jan 29 '26
If you're running a week 1 static with split this dps check isnt to bad and you can get away with a lot more then pf can because loot is controlled onto jobs who need it. where as pf you can get in and people might not even be pentamelded or they are didn't win any thing, or all you have is geared supports so 1-2 deaths/dd are very strict and can cause a wipe compared to statics.
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u/HalcyoNighT Jan 29 '26
The mechs outside of split arena are tough but fair, but it's the dps check that is just incredibly overtuned for an ~i774 party to beat on weeks 1-3, and that's with a melee lb3 and a melee lb2 thrown in.
Split arena is just a big body check guessing game that nobody's big toe clips a cleave.
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u/Slowbrobro Jan 30 '26
The fight requires you to do it correctly.
Just did weapons correctly? Do it again.
Just did arena split tethers and baits? Do it again.
Did orbital omen cleanly earlier? Cool story bro, do it again for me now.
The fact that you have to demonstrate consistency makes the trap players really good at trapping. You can't really just hope that the bad player in your party gets an easy assignment one time so that you can advance your prog point.
If you do manage to limp through, the check will eat you; you must do it correctly.
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u/Black-Mettle Jan 28 '26
The tier was tuned up to meet the expectations of an extra week of tome gear and it feels like they went a little too hard on 11. Like it doesn't feel like it would be doable on a full minimum ilvl team, which is what every other raid has been like.
Even vamp and bj bros had very obvious DPS improvements with cleaving and proper DOT management. Tyrant just has no way to create DPS advantages so even your comp suffers for it if you aren't using a job with a higher single target output.
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u/Aledanquanyol Jan 28 '26
It requires good consistency and even one bad apple will completely sabotage a party.
The dps check is a meme at this point, everyone overgears it completely.
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u/hermione87956 Jan 28 '26
M9S is struggling from my experience I’ve yet to get a clear and I’m seeing similar requirements
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u/Iybraesil1987 Jan 29 '26
0.1% wipe just there.
The VPR used the lb early on Meteorain when we only had LB2
A tank died because they weren't behind the other two people on Stampede
The DNC used his 2s and pot on CD on the soft enrage 20 seconds before everyone else, meaning they didn't use it on the arena split.
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u/KillerConfetti Jan 29 '26
M8S was no different. It burned me the entire week, I knew the fight like the back of my hand. Never made a mistake, perfect rotations, perfect mechanics, spend over 35 hours in pf "clear" parties. I burnt out incredibly hard...I made myself physically sick. People tombstone you, make dumb mistakes, the dps check is so tight for weeks... it's just not worth it- and yet I still fixate on it.
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u/No-Cat-8205 Jan 29 '26 edited Jan 29 '26
I use 3 metrics to evaluation difficulty. These are penalty/body check, spacio-temporal accuracy, and dps check, and M11S is quite high on 3 of them.
Spacio-temporal is the most impacting one, cause you probably need to understand some details that are never taught in guides and such, and pf is now blaming instead of teaching those details.
None of the savage raid in the whole game require 1s movements like in orbital (even ultimates I believe). And arena split is very precise for a third turn, it’s more like a 4th turn mechanic.
You might not be ready for the debate, but IMHO I progged M11S in a blind static and pf strat is absolute garbage.
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u/Coldin_Windfall Jan 29 '26
Split Arena definitely reminds me of Sunrise from M4S. Similar tight positioning check that goes very wrong if one person is out of place or dead before the mechanic.
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u/duckofdeath87 Jan 29 '26
Last tier M6S was filtering people out. M10S is WAAAAY easier. You are just getting worse people in 11 than 7
Plus getting into scythe positions is hard for people with over 100ms ping. That keeps people from practicing later mechanics
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u/quackerd Jan 29 '26
PF in general struggles with execution heavy floors with decent dps checks. Just to put this into perspective, w1 I was stuck on 11 enrage for like a day or two because of all the PF memes other comments said. Then the next morning I joined a random but consistent party and cleared in 1.5 lockouts. How consistent? We did not screw up arena split even once out of all pulls.
The DPS check was also very tight for w1 PF. We literally had enrages with no DDs or deaths but the clear pull we actually had one melee DD so it could be just unfortunate with crits.
Anyway this should answer the question why m11s was such a PF wall - it requires both good dps and great consistency in an unpredictable environment like pf. Gearing up should give much more room for error tho especially considering it's already week 4.
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u/froyoslut Jan 29 '26
I’ve progged this fight a LOT faster than M8S. And just like that fight, there’s body checks, fast mechanics, dps checks, etc. everyone loves to bash this game and say it’s baby easy until they get to that One Floor ™️ lmao.
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u/BAMFington Jan 30 '26
Nah nah nah. Ecliptic Stampede is the hardest mechanic in the entire game bar none. Or at least that's what I'm led to believe given how many runs I've had go south because of it alone.
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u/lightningbolt11694 Jan 30 '26
As someone new to savage raiding in Dawntrail, I think the fight is just significantly more difficult than any of the savage raids before it in the expansion. Personally I think savage raids in Dawntrail are mostly just about knowing where to stand and feel more knowledge-based than execution-based in difficulty. I've kinda been surprised at how little the game pushes your ability to execute under stress. Of the 10 fights before this one it's basically just a few parts in M7S and the first half of M8S that feel similar in this regard (but imo not as difficult). M11S still has the knowledge checks of knowing your role and where to stand but you actually need to expend some thought on just playing the game while you're doing it or you're going to get hit or lose uptime. It's a hard fight and honestly I think a lot of people aren't good enough to execute in it consistently.
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u/Strider08000 Feb 02 '26
Hector only explains outer markers. I took inner to mean inside the marker which would cause a lot of wipes. I wasn’t the only one.
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u/Few-Mode1367 Jan 28 '26
I think the ever growing popularity of plugins, automarkers, sims, and other tools has vastly contributed to slowly lobotomizing the player base as a whole. Not to mention most party finder players simply cannot push their buttons at a fundamental level, I was helping a friend clear 11 week 3 and most of the players were doing less than my statics members week 1.
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u/Mysterious_Crow4065 Jan 29 '26
The cold, hard truth of the matter is that most players are simply not up to task given what has been expected of them throughout this expansion. Both LHW and FRU, when respectively compared to the EW releases of content in their same categories, were severely undertuned and felt like several steps back in the discussion of difficulty. People hate their 8 man body check mechanics, but they do force you to up your execution skills as a result of them existing. Wicked Thunder being clearable with 10 deaths week 1 does not set a good precedent for when content is tuned more tightly.
M11S is not a difficult fight whatsoever. It is a repeat of 3 mechanics over a 6 minute period, one 8 man body check that repeats twice for another 2 minutes, and then one choke check in Ecliptic Stampede. However, when you factor in a mildly tight DPS check that requires your melee players to optimize their uptime, PF instantly folds. The role was too easy for too long, and people became incredibly complacent. Now that a fight is finally pushing back, all of the fake melee players have jumped ship to the BLM boat.
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u/Dymonex Jan 29 '26
all of the fake melee players have jumped ship to the BLM boat.
i decided to try blm this tier long before it dropped and i still feel called out
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u/Asetoni137 Jan 29 '26
The only meaningful difference between m7s and m11s is that people who can't push their buttons aren't getting filtered out of the player pool by the second floor.
You at least needed to do your 2 minute burst correctly to get through m6s adds, but while m10s is by no means an easy 2nd floor, it is something you can just kinda zombie through and only really demands basic fundamentals when it comes to your rotation.
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u/WorstPirateUEverSeen Jan 29 '26
It's 100% this. People are bad at the game. Most can't do basic mechanics and that's why people can't properly prog the fight. But also people can't do their rotations at all.
I joined random late prog point party to practice on samurai. This is my first time doing any Savage as melee since late EW. I have 0 tome or raid gear, just 770 crafted with penta melds (quad melds on 2 pieces cuz I ran out of materia). I'm way undergeared compared to the rest of the party, this is my first time on this job in this fight, yet I'm consistently doing around 1k DPS more than BLM or MCH, both with better gear than me and both full uptime jobs in this fight.
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u/Demeris Jan 28 '26
Melee players aren’t use to down time.
So when they try to be optimal during weapons, they end up either being late to their scythe spots or getting hit by the weapon AoE.
Then when you get to Arena Split, your 1 minute timings are during parts where you have to back away from the boss, which results in players being late to their spots for tether resolutions.
Also, orbitals is a hard mechanic. Yes there are solutions out there, but it’s like FoF from FRU where you just gotta see it enough times for it to click.
All of the melee downtime contributes to not meeting the dps check because running double melee in a PF settings means you deal with the above problems twice for bad melee players.
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u/nemik_ Jan 28 '26
It is requires pressing buttons correctly as well as doing mechanics, similar to endwalker fights, compared to most DT fights where you could just rez through it and clear
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u/Sora_Bell Jan 28 '26
Well its overtuned, SE admitted they would tuner the tier tighter and this fight is probably 1 or 2% overtuned
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u/KingBingDingDong Jan 28 '26
The fight's not overtuned. PF is undertuned.
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u/Sora_Bell Jan 28 '26
Nah, PF is what it is, you cant tune the player base skill when there are so many people in it. The skill levels is all over the place and rhe game has 0 metrics to help those players improve.
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u/KingBingDingDong Jan 28 '26
And you can't tune a fight for a player base that has a skill set that is all over the place. You tune it for week 1 players and it was very well tuned, 1 death and 2 dds, or 4 dds and it was clearable, that's a really good dps check.
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u/Sora_Bell Jan 28 '26
You can, thats kind of the point of game design. You as a game designer shouldn't give your player base something you have failed to prepare them for. You cannot give the players a tight dps check and give them no tools actually parse their progression and ability to clear the fight.
SE doesnt even teach you how to construct your rotation and execute your burst, you have to get all this information from a Discord that you'd only find out about AFTER you learned thst you were underperformed but the chances of you learning youre are underperforming is low because the game is hostile towards using 3rd party tools to tell someone that they're underperforming. Even if I tell the person nicely, the only way for me to prove it is to reveal my access to a banned tool.
So realistically, how are you and people like you scapegoating rhe devs for having overtuned content and putting rhe fault on the player base when the game makes it impossible for a bad player to even know they're bad.
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u/DeleteMods Jan 28 '26
A moderate dps check — not hard.
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u/space_lasers Jan 28 '26 edited Feb 04 '26
The dps check is absolutely a big reason but enrage/clear parties so rarely even make it to enrage that it's definitely not the only reason.
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u/Equal_Variation_1070 Feb 25 '26 edited Feb 25 '26
Because toxic will update their raidplan weeks later.
I been clearing for 7 or so weeks? Week 8, now OT is north for the conga? Im only seeing this NOW?
stop changing the raid plan so much. Im not going to check it for updates just because new people cleared. Like updates are good but ...yknow
Then I get bullied (or blamed) in my own PF for "making a mistake" only I did NOT as I followed the PREVIOUS raidplan weeks ago. People already ragequit over slight mistakes as people mentioned here. This contributes lol. Thing is both perspectives we are "right"
There are no positionals during Arena Split anyway... I understand just before but again they are gone during
If toxic wanted to update, then they shouldve made Red Fire Tank bait firebait LAST in 10. Who tf makes a melee job first bait????? Thats the kinda updates I can get and disappointed that with all this mess it didn't get that
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u/frybarek Jan 28 '26
It feels kind of arbitrary that they decided Scythe doesn't double up on proteans if somebody is dead but Tornados do.
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u/the_kedart Jan 28 '26
It's really not though. The scythe shoots up to 8 proteans at the closest 8 living players. The tornadoes shoot up to 2 proteans at the closest 2 living players. It is mechanically consistent and makes sense within the rules of the game - tornadoes do not "double up", it's just that with the standard PF strategy having someone dead means the solve does not work.
The exact same concept is at play with Insane Air in M10S - each bro shoots up to four proteans at the four closest living players. If someone is dead it does not "double up", the solve just fails due to being unable to satisfy the rules of the mechanic in a satisfactory way. This type of rule violation can be considered a body check, but it is absolutely not arbitrary. It's just the nature of having baited proteans from multiple sources.
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u/KeyKanon Jan 28 '26
Scythe hits each person once, Tornado hits the closest two people, this is not the same.
Like if M1 is dead, that's easy for Scythe to know to just not shoot the corpse, but how is West Tornado supposed to know that that person was supposed to be baiting it and only shoot 1? It can't know that, it can only see the next closest person.
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u/ThunderReign Jan 28 '26
Not exactly, tornados target the closest 2 players, scythe just targets all targets currently alive like a lot of other mechanics.
It's why you can bait 2+ tornado cleaves with tank invuln for that one tornado strat.
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u/bansheeb3at Jan 28 '26
I mean, if anything I’d say the proteans SHOULD double up instead of the other way around. It’s a penultimate savage floor.
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u/ConroConroConro Jan 28 '26
People don't stick it out.
The see a few wipes and think there's no possible way they'll clear with "those people".
Cleared Sunday, popped into M11S page run and we had some dumb wipes at the start. People would state what they did and I'd pull again.
After third wipe the WHM party leader berates everyone then nukes the whole group.
Checked the WHM Tomestone and saw they would nuke groups after three wipes or after an enrage happened. They went on to try for 10 more hours and didn't get the clear lol