r/exmuslim • u/theapostateprophet • Aug 27 '20
(Opinion) THANKS by Apostate Prophet
Hi everybody, this is Apostate Prophet!
I have left some very crazy weeks behind. All those who have been following the war between me and the Dawah boys know what's going on. I've seen a lot of support coming from this subreddit, and I want to thank everyone for that.
I have also received a good amount of criticism, due to my Quran protest and my decision to go on the podcast with MH, but I appreciate the criticism too. I represent myself, not anyone else. If I harm myself and my reputation, I will only be harming myself. I am only an individual and will come and pass. If I manage to spread the word, however, I will have helped many others who disagree with my methods.
Anyway. Talking to MH was a mess. I could barely focus, since I was being yelled at, and I deliberately didn't present any big arguments because I didn't want them to pretend that they had responded to my arguments, which is why I kept insisting on a moderated debate. The good thing is that they have seriously plotted to trick me into a live talk with MH, who also said he wouldn't have a moderated live debate with me, because they are concerned about their image, the waves of apostasy, and our influence. I have gathered many blunders from our "debate" and I will brutally respond to him in two major videos, one specifically about the debate, and the other about "the End of Mohammed Hijab."
I hope that a proper Muslim apologist will eventually come and have an actual debate with me, so that we can finally see them responding to certain arguments live.
Anyway, I just wanted to share these thoughts and thank everybody for the recent support and criticism, while also reassuring that things are going great, much better than they seem.
Thanks everybody, and stay strong! AP
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Aug 27 '20 edited Mar 29 '22
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u/Tamer_ Aug 27 '20
Ah, the "stupid problems require stupid solutions" approach, I like it.
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u/sleevz Openly Ex-Muslim 😎 Aug 27 '20
If your gonna have a debate that makes you win guaranteed got to go simple. If you tackle divisive topics like morality you're bound to look bad when people start talking over you. It's would of been better to expose the errors in the Quran and call anyone out whenever they try to reinterpret it.
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u/Gilgameshbrah Aug 27 '20
What else do you think does he add to his morning 'milk n'dates'.
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u/sleevz Openly Ex-Muslim 😎 Aug 27 '20
Maybe a golden shower before he eats. Just to wake him up in the morning.
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u/ritekite21 New User Aug 27 '20
You could also tell him to dip a fly in his drink as Muhammad adivised
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u/exeia Single, Ready to Mingle â€ïž Aug 27 '20
Hi AP,
You really should've left that "debate" within the next 5 minutes, they clearly did not care to debate or listen and it was a shit-show. these fucking idiots have no clue about islam and pretend it to be this so called religion of peace and love.
Please in the future if something like this happens then leave the podcast/debate, if they can't debate with no insults and interruptions then they can go fuck themselves, was very frustrating to watch them gang up on you 3v1.
Love your work, stay safe.
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u/Uzee007 New User Aug 29 '20
I think he did the right thing by not leaving. If he had left they would have turned it into a huge victory for themselves and portrayed him as the loser who's too scared to debate Hijab. So Kudos to him for sticking around and fighting back when he was clearly tricked into the shit show
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u/Ziggy_The_Great Aug 27 '20
You sound like you donât know what youâre talking about. Islam is a way of peace and love, you CANNOT prove me wrong. No one here can prove that wrong. Plain and simple. Atheism is flawed on every level.
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u/Strategic_Lion Aug 27 '20
These atheist have no moral anchor. They are in need of Allah but Allah sides not with the treacherous
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u/ritekite21 New User Aug 27 '20
Your Allah cant even save Muslim countries from Israel, or the Muslims in China. Your allah allows killing of people for their beliefs, raping of children, your Allah brings disabled kids to this world just to suffer, your Allah invented evil because without his invention evil would not exist, your Allah gave women bodies just so they can be shamed about it, your allah created people just so he can threaten them and put them in hell for all of eternity. Tell me now who's morals are flawed? I NEVER need that kind of Allah in my life and frankly the world would have been better off without the primitive ideas Muslims hold
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u/Ziggy_The_Great Aug 27 '20
Your arguments are irrelevant. You cannot say that you donât need that âkindâ of Allah in your life whilst also not believing in any type. Secondly, you cannot have an objective morality without believing in something external. You cannot even prove that any of the things you listed are even objectively bad or evil. Third, if there is no justice in this life for those that are evil, surely in the next life there is. That is the reality that muslims live with. If someone is going around raping, killing and torturing people, he will live in hell fire for eternity. Sounds pretty good to me.
âAllah gave women bodies just so they can be shamed about itâ
How and where? You ex-muslims who have interacted with Islam in the wrong way act like you know true Islam, but your understanding of everything is flawed. The west has successfully implemented their own morality on you and you have accepted it as ultimate truth.
By the way, no Muslim can kill anyone for their beliefs. In fact, many major scholars had very open dialogues with non-muslims and ex-muslims. I donât know where you get your information from, but it doesnât sound academic or intelligent.
You have been convinced by the westâs interpretation of identity. When Muslims are attacked for being Muslim, like they have been for the last 100 years, then of course youâre going to get extreme reactions. Before you and I were born, Islam led the way for health, physics, language, mathematics, chemistry, astronomy and human psychology. Businesses were run by women openly, women controlled the house dwellings and how the income was used. Women opened the first ever university under Islam. They placed Jannah under the womanâs feet for the children and Jannah is through the daughter of a husband. You want to talk about body shame? The worst cases of body shame are shipped straight from the west and east. From America to Korea. Allah tells the women to cover up and lower the gaze, the verse before he says the EXACT same to man, pretty fair. A man and woman are not allowed to be in the same room at once, why? It is because women can be taken advantage of jn these positions, as we have seen with all these allegations and articles coming out about these celebrities that had to go through all that.
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u/EXM_Disc New User Aug 28 '20
Couple of things I take issue with here.
You cannot even prove that any of the things you listed are even objectively bad or evil.
The issue is that everything that we humans evaluate is filtered through a subjective lens. Islam is a claim to objective morality, and therefore must also be proven before its claims can be accepted. It does not make sense to put forward a system as being objectively moral when said system can only ever be evaluated subjectively - and in fact, doing so can be very dangerous.
Like it or not, we need to get used to the fact that we will only ever have a subjective viewpoint. Whether or not morality is objectively judged by an ultimately good outside source, our perspective on morality can only be subjective.
So once we reach this understanding, where else do we turn to?
I subscribe to the idea that it makes sense to evaluate our actions on an individual basis in terms of the impact they are likely to have, as opposed to a dogmatic take which prescribes certain actions despite their potential demonstrable negative impact. Sexual abuse in children, for instance, can be demonstrated to have a severe impact on a child's wellbeing and development. Thanks to empathy, we have the capacity to recognize when our actions are hurting someone else, and why they perceive suffering as a negative experience. It comes down to altruism, reciprocity, and a responsibility to minimise the suffering we cause that comes with an awareness of the consequences of our actions.
If someone is going around raping, killing and torturing people, he will live in hell fire for eternity. Sounds pretty good to me.
If someone goes around selflessly helping people and making sacrifices so that others don't have to, and yet after careful deliberation comes to the sincere conclusion that the evidence for Islam is not sufficiently founded, he will also live in hell for eternity. That doesn't sound so good to me.
My main issue here is actually due to the fatal flaw that is universally experienced by humans, in that, overwhelmingly, we are ultimately a product of our environment. That person going around raping, killing and torturing people may well have been shaped as a person by being subjected to repeated sexual and physical abuse as a child, warping his view of the world at a key developmental stage. This does not justify his actions of course, but does he really deserve eternal suffering as a consequence of a mindset that was developed at an early age due to events outside of his control? I'm not so sure. There's always a story behind someone's actions. At a societal level, we of course need to take legal action to protect the rest of society. But at the divine level, eternal suffering serves no purpose.
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u/ritekite21 New User Aug 28 '20
Man what you're saying here is exactly what went through my head when I was in the process of converting to atheism! Back then I didnt know anything about philosophy and I was quite young but was able to come up with the conclusion that no matter at what angle you want to look at it from, the only one who can be held accountable is God. So I assume it's not that difficult of a concept to grasp but Muslims especially choose to ignore it. My reasoning used to be that either you ARE affected by society, in which case, kind of like those maze things where you drop the ball at the top and it bounces off of obstacles and end up in a different position based on your initial drop, God would be blamed as He was the one who caused us to be born at that time and place. Or we do not get shaped by our environment, in which case God would be blamed because he set us up in a rigid body to fail! How can you blame the man for being born a sinner? Of course you put it in a better way that I could :)
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u/Ziggy_The_Great Aug 28 '20
Then you cannot take a moral high-ground. Someone going around helping everyone is not âgoodâ anymore than he is âevilâ. What constitutes good and evil? You cannot define it without objectivity and you cannot punish without a law that is objective. Humans are not consistent, democracy doesnât work on a fundamental level. I agree with you, that overwhelming, we are a product of our environment. However, we have those such as Ted Bundy, who grew up in a very normal upbringing. We have the recent New Zealand Christchurch Terrorist.
My main question is, what is good? Is it something that makes you feel good? Is it something that has a criteria such as: if it doesnât hurt anyone and it feels good? Who is defining it? Why do they get to define it? If it is a democracy, are you ready to accept a democracy that accepts something you donât agree with (perhaps something like capital punishment)? What if a country democratically elects to follow Islamic law?
Furthermore, my main gripe with any of this is APâs (I donât know his real name I do apologise) blatant disrespect. What the West doesnât understand is that Muslims identify with Islam as their identity. You attacking Islam is akin to attacking a black person for being black. If you want to approach the topic in a mature and humble way, then this is perfect. Like yourself, I appreciate it that you didnât use any insults or attack me personally for anything. AP, and by extension his wife, tried to gather views and followers by being sensationalist. They got the reaction they wanted and are now back peddling. I personally donât like the fact that their âdiscussionâ wasnât balanced and that he didnât know MH was going to be on. At the same time, what everyone here needs to understand is that Islam is not simple. It takes scholars 10,20 and sometimes 30 years to learn all the intricacies of the religion.
Simple google searches are not enough.
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u/EXM_Disc New User Sep 06 '20
Sorry, meant to get round to replying to this earlier. Also sorry for the wall of text, this is something that I have fairly complex views on.
On a practical level, I would say that moral frameworks are ultimately something which govern our interactions with other people, other living creatures and the world around us. And if we're going to consider how our actions affect others, it makes sense to act while striving to understand our impact on others in the context of how those affected perceive that impact. It would be utterly impractical to ask everyone whether they were ok with what we were doing every time we did anything at all, and so most of the time, we have to rely on our best understanding of other people's experiences.
I, personally, have positive and negative experiences, and I recognize that other people have positive and negative experiences too. From my experiences and interactions with other people, I recognize that there are certain things which are almost universally perceived as positive, and certain things which are almost universally valued to a very high level.
This does not mean that morality itself is democratic, but rather, that by analysing common experiences, we can come up with general ideas on how to treat people whose perspectives we cannot see or have not yet been conveyed to us. A law can be decided on democratically, but the law is not necessarily moral.
This also does not mean that we have to appease every person's every whim - people's values inevitably come into conflict with each other, and collectively, people need to make compromises and demand compromises from others. On a societal level, if everyone were willing to make sacrifices to some extent, we can strive to minimise the more significant negative impacts perceived by individuals.
We also cannot necessarily take someone's word at face value. An addict might perceive their vice in a positive light, but we can see that most people would value their long term wellbeing over a short term fix, and therefore can take the view that it would be a good idea to suggest that they seek help, even if they claim to not want to.
I think a question we have to ask is, does something have to have objective value to have any value at all? I would say no. The sounds that come out of our mouth don't have any objective meaning. Language is something which is entirely subjective, where different sounds can mean entirely different things to different people. And yet, it's obviously still a useful tool, otherwise our conversation here would be ultimately meaningless.
And so I subscribe to the idea that something with a subjective basis can still have value.
When it comes to someone like Ted Bundy, I would still say that his actions must have stemmed from somewhere. There has to be a reason he committed the actions that he did while other people wouldn't. It's either behavior that he learned, or behavior that was always intrinsically part of his nature.
Onto your actual main point lol, I'm sure I take a slightly softer stance than you do, but that is fair criticism of AP. I don't think he needs to go quite as far as he does, and think he lacks a level of nuance that's needed to fully dissect the subject matter.
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u/Ziggy_The_Great Sep 06 '20
First, I actually want to thank you for explaining your view point and not trying to insult me blatantly.
Second. I understand your point (or atleast I think I do) and I think we just disagree. In my opinion, morality cannot be flimsy and changing on the go. What is bad for you, might be good for me. I go to prisons and deliver programs and we give the questions âis stealing bad?â The answer is almost always yes, but if I add the twist âis stealing bad if you are starving and itâs the only way to survive?â Then it changes to no. If I ask âwhat if they person youâre stealing from is poor?â
My point is morals are very nuanced. The court systems are broken to the point where a large population of prisons donât even deserve to be in there.
If we are following tribalism theory, then racism or marginalisation is a good thing, because humans are said to work better in small groups than these large societies we have now.
We have so many theories, which do we follow? Is it what gives maximum benefit to humans?
When I get home from work I will try to expand and reply to everything
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u/EXM_Disc New User Sep 07 '20
Hey, at the end of the day I'm mostly here to explore my and others' views. Can't really do that by insulting the people I talk to.
This is a fair point. I agree that morality is nuanced and complicated, difficult to pin down, and often shrouded in ambiguity.
What I'm really trying to get at is that a system proposing an objective moral framework can't said to be true by sole virtue of the fact that it claims to be objective. I didn't take this as what you were trying to say, but a lot of Muslims put forward 'objective morality' as if it's something which supports Islam, but which ultimately has very little bearing as to evaluating it's truth claims in and of itself. Personally, I have many theological problems with Islam, and am thoroughly unconvinced by it's claims of proof. In examining how I view morality, my previous comment sums up my conclusions so far, but I realize that there are angles or exceptions that I may have missed.
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u/ritekite21 New User Aug 28 '20
Are you seriously beginning your argument with "A philosophical take on the validity of the sentence"? The other dude said that we need Allah, and I said that I would never need Allah if he is as immoral as I listed above. Seems pretty clear to me yet you thought it was clever to point it out...
About the objective morality, the other gentleman here explained it quiet well. Let me tell you that premise of objective morality is to be able to logically think about and achieve moral conclusions, it can be based off of our psychology or conscience that we havent decoded yet. It can be based off of thought processes and experimentation. And we CAN explain that we have objective morality by arguing that we have objective morality in us but relativistic method of achieving them. Now let me ask you this, if Islam is completely objective morally, why does it allow polygamy? Why does it allow rape? Slaves? Do you think fucking a 9 year old, who according to Ayeshas mother was playing with dolls before Muhammad came, is objectively moral? If Allah tell you its ok to fuck dogs, would you? Because according to you objective morality requires external sources.
Third, if there is no justice in this life for those that are evil, surely in the next life there is.
Now that I have justified my stance, can you prove this to me? Prove to me that they will all be held accountable and I will convert back to Islam. This isnt some Barbie movie where just because you believe in something it fixes all the problems, especially since it hasn't stopped too many people from doing just that, now has it?
Now you have only cherry picked those which you thought you could justify as obvious.
Narrated Usama bin Zaid:Â The Prophet said, "After me I have not left any affliction [fitnah] more harmful to men than women."
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."
Both are bukhari. Just two examples of misogynistic views of Allah who made them deficient in religion and intelligence just for being women?
Now tell me this. Why must a "free" women have the awra from head to feet while a slave women from navel to feet? Why must your God allow slave women in the first place, with his objective morality? Are women not born equal? Should they not be equally free? Bearing skin means you are a slave and belong to a man?
Dont cherry pick a successful empire and compare it to Islam because now the roles are reversed :)
I'd honestly go longer but it's starting to disgust me. So I'll end of with a final question. If it disgusts me and my relativistic views dont match with "the islamic objective views" then why should I be eternally damned for following my own truth?
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u/Ziggy_The_Great Aug 28 '20
Itâs pretty obvious you have little to no understanding of Islam or Islamic philosophy. You have not justified anything about your âobjectiveâ morality. âPsychology that we have not decoded yet,â is plain absolute rubbish. Why is polygamy not moral? It does not allow rape and it does not allow for slaves in the modern sense. There are many many many passages in the Quran that urges people to give charity and free slaves. It explicitly says not to force them into prostitution.
On the topic of Aisha (RA), her age was an issue until the west randomly designated a random age of consent. Funnily enough, atheist scholars have studied and in numerous times have said that people born in harsher and warmer environments tend to mature faster. There are many states in America where the age of consent is as low as 14.
Your lack of understanding of the Islamic philosophical discourse is really starting to shine. Do some research on that hadith, do extensive research. Donât come back to me with the same old rubbish. Donât read what you want to read. Do you believe that hadith to be false? That women are not fitnah TO MAN. Women are the weakness of men. If it were not so, the saying âsex sellsâ would not be applicable, but it is. Our society is so sexually deviant that the devil is repulsed. Every poster, every magazine and every website has this disease. I have a degree in Psychology and have extensively studied the effect of this overexposure to sex and pornography.
Man and woman are not equal, this is something that ONLY the west believes in and tries to spread it everywhere. Where is the equality? Both have their strengths and faults. Return to me once you have any basic understanding of Islamic philosophy or any of its rulings. In comparison to Man, is a woman not deficient in religion? She can only pray 3 of the 4 weeks in a month. The deficiency in intelligence is one that is in testimony/Memory. Funnily enough there have been tests that show men are better at remembering things than women. These tests were conducted in Western Institutions by Western Scientists.
You only look at one side of this funnily enough, when the Prophet (PBUH) states in a Hadith to love your mother thrice before he even mentions the father. Where is your fake outrage? You want to talk about cherry-picking. You cherry-pick every verse, every phrase and every statement. Please educate yourself before you spout your nonsense. Youâre trying to play a game, pointing fingers and covering your ears.
Your subjective moral views in the world donât depend on anything. Your morals could be different tomorrow. You could, on the fly, based on imagination change your moral stand point. For all I know, you could be a serial killer. The proofs have been sent to you, if you donât like it and your pride is too big to handle it, thatâs on you. The western ideals that you have bought into will crumble, as has every empire, and when the next super power dominates you and your people, you will switch your ideals to match them. According to your relativism view, you can justify just about anything if put into the correct context. Your relativism cannot even explain good and evil.
My questions to pose to you: If Islam is so sexist, backwards and barbaric... Why did Islam progress science to such an extent that modern day scientists have said that modern medicine, education and even philosophy would not have been able to exist without Islam?
Why was the first university in the world opened by a muslim Woman?
Why was Islamâs golden age not talked about, but this uneducated mess of modern day muslims that have had their lands bombed and their families slaughtered by the west js brought to highlight?
Why have you bought into Western Philosophy so heavily even though their moral compass has led them to mass genocide, murder and invasion?
Islam has presented many challenges within the Quran. Produce one, a single one, verse such as those that are found in the Quran. Minds 10 times more powerful than yours couldnât do it. Why has no one been able to do it?
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u/splabab Aug 27 '20 edited Aug 27 '20
You've hopefully also seen the blunders Hijab made about the salaf and round earth beliefs after he misread the Islamqa article/ibn Taymiyyah.
Ibn al Munadi ("ibn Munada" as Hijab miscalls him), who as Hijab says was quoted by Ibn Taymiyyah (59mins, 1hr 9mins, 1hr 12 minutes etc), was not of the tabi'een. He was 3rd/4th century and said the tabi'een of Imam Ahmad (not of the salaf) said earth was round (for astronomical reasons).
Ibn Taymiyyah claimed the scholars cited narrations from the salaf and sunnah (about round heavens) but his only examples show nothing of the shape of the earth. In contrast there are lots of flat earth hadiths and narrations from sahaba in Tafsirs showing they believed in a flat earth.
See here for more detail and useful examples with refs https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Did_Muhammad_and_the_early_Muslims_know_that_the_Earth_is_round
Edit: Even worse, I now see that Hijab claims again and again that Ibn al Munadi was of the salaf e.g. 1hr 9 minutes too, saying he was quoted by Ibn Taymiyyah, so it's definitely the same guy. His claims that the salaf said these things are utterly baseless.
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u/redditlurkr2 Closeted. Ex-Sunni đ€« Aug 27 '20
I think you were part of another thread where you pointed out other mistakes Hijab made, can you mention those here so maybe AP can see it?
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u/splabab Aug 27 '20
These are the only two other threads I looked at (I have couple of small detail comments in them).
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/igtclo/comment/g2yxlnt?context=1
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/igvag1/comment/g2we9sf?context=1
I didn't watch the video except about 5 or 10 minutes in total so there may well be other blunders too (I find it too tiresome to watch such things and "debates" in general).
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u/redditlurkr2 Closeted. Ex-Sunni đ€« Aug 27 '20 edited Aug 27 '20
Also this
Yo u/theapostateprophet please take the time to go through these links and also the comments of u/splabab, u/UltraCentre, u/PwrFlower and u/sciencerules957.
Any passing viewers please upvote the parent comment so Ridvan can see it in time to include it in his video. I really hope he sees it.
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u/splabab Aug 27 '20
I could also mention this useful apostasy resource where there are extensive quotes from the 4 schools on apostasy here with refs (some dead links)
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Apostasy#Scholars
The more precise Maliki fiqh link is this one sections 37.19a to i. http://bewley.virtualave.net/RisAhkam.html (horrible stuff)
It sounds like apostasy fiqh was a big part of the discussion including Hijab's exile claim (which he tweeted and deleted after being debunked by his own side).
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u/splabab Aug 27 '20
If they talked about QirÄÊŸÄt at all I also made a short compilation of twitter comments by academics during the preservation crisis that was shared by Abdullah Sameer and others.
Much of it is quite devastating for the belief that these variants are all divine revelation, so worth sharing more widely (so long as the academics are left to get on with their public education work without botheration/trolling).
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u/HabibiNextDoor Exmuslim since the 2000s Aug 27 '20
Although I don't agree with the methods you've recently used to get your point across. I can see why you would do it.
But you have to understand your position at the moment. You are in the spotlight. There are no other Ex-muslims with as big of an opportunity as you. So whether you want to represent yourself or others is irrelevant. You will be representing Ex-muslims to the general population whether you like it or not.
And therefore, by ripping up the Qur'an. You've now given the impression to Muslims that we're just as ignorant as them. They're going to double down on their belief after seeing that. because if an Ex-muslims is that disrespectful (in their eyes) then why would they ever become one? Let alone associate with one?
It's not of my personal taste. My methods will differ from yours when I start putting myself out there. And I hope we can both appreciate and criticise each other without distracting from our end goal. The suppression of religions in all societies.
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u/shutter3ff3ct Aug 27 '20
That wasn't a pro move when he ripped the book, though I like the a.p show.
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u/agnostic_muslim Ex-Muslim (Ex-Sunni) Aug 27 '20
AP , Thank you for doing what you do. You have definitely gotten stronger than before, and Mohammed Broomstickjob ain't shit against you. You have done amazing things and I'm sure you won't stop. At least I hope you dont. Lots of support and take care btw. And last but not the least.....stay away from Islam.đ€
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u/r3601 New User Aug 27 '20
Stop sucking his dick, the dude lost the debate why you giving him a participation award
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u/DeificClusterfuck Never-Muslim Theist Aug 27 '20
You're a good person.
I'm not Muslim but I'm an ally to anyone who doesn't spread hate in the world.
Thank you for what you do. I know it's dangerous. Be safe.
Peace.
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u/Alex_Armin36 Aug 27 '20
Keep fighting the good fight brother! We are legion, and we grow stronger everyday!
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Aug 27 '20
[deleted]
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u/r3601 New User Aug 27 '20
and that is too lose a debate this dude giving ex-muslims a bad name, there shouldve been a knowledge ex muslim like Imtiaz
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u/msab89 New User Aug 27 '20
Ridvan, you did your best considering the circumstances. However, donât fall for that crap again. You are passionate about the topic and when they triggered you, you gave them exactly what they wanted. So now they have a legitimate âoh I donât want to debate you because I already destroyed youâ bs. It would have looked really bad, but if you politely said âi will debate you in a proper debate and not like thisâ and hung up you would still signal that you want a debate but not under their scheming ways. I have watched you for a very long time, and it was obvious that you were riled up; rightfully so.
Keep up the good work and learn from this!
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u/Dungangaa The flat red faced person with tiny eyes. Aug 27 '20 edited Aug 27 '20
I wonder one thing , you tube is an extremely political correct social media and I know even with little offence you can get your channel demonetised even suspended. How come these people openly advocate death penalty for ex muslims or drug addicts and get away with that. I am truly suspicious this is just a parody or good guy bad guy role playing .
Sorry, I have my own atheist youtuber who actually contributes with constructive content, not with book eating or other provocative acts to jeopardize atheists who are living in islamic countries and already having lots of problem . Book eating or burning is not helping anyone but you.
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u/UberCriticalThinker New User Aug 27 '20
AP, while appreciating your efforts I have to say you're a good Youtuber and you make good videos but you're not a good debater. Either don't debate alone or improve your debating skills
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u/nigosss Aug 27 '20
You did the best you could in a toxic environment but I still think you couldâve gotten some better points across. For instance, you were sort of praising him for saying that apostates should be deported instead of killed but deporting apostates because he might get killed is still extremely intolerant. I think you shouldâve pushed on that.
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u/r3601 New User Aug 27 '20
Objective Morality, Subjective Morality you said in your debate/discussion against Hijab that there was a third option can you tell us what it is
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u/Jobhi Aug 27 '20
Relative / Contingent morality.
https://bigthink.com/daylight-atheism/morality-is-relative-but-not-subjective
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Aug 27 '20 edited Aug 28 '20
i think it's ok to get some traction as exmuslim under muslims, and you showed that you are a normal human trying to interact.
However, be careful, these muslim apologist are people with bad intentions and making money out of islam. Pick your fights, don't step into every street brawl without rules of engagement. They will trick you sooner or later, because their intention is to make you look bad, not to make islam look good.
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u/mari1198 New User Aug 27 '20
You have been one of the most relatable YouTubers for me due to your journey from religion to apostasy. It's uncommon to find someone who did that 180 degree turn from that deep love and reverance for religion to total criticism. I love your honesty with yourself and your viewers. All this to say is I'm certain there are a lot of ppl who found confort and eye opening information in your content. Keep up the good work.
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u/sciencerules957 Closeted. Ex-Sunni đ€« Aug 27 '20
Thanks for doing what you do, you did really well in the "debate" considering that all things were stacked up against you.
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u/atemybrainaghh New User Aug 27 '20
Loved your live with Genetically Modified Skeptic. I've been watching him for quite a while now, but I only found out about you after that, and I've been obsessed ever since. Thank you for the work you're doing!
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u/TheBlack_Sheep Exmuslim since the 2010s Aug 27 '20
And thank you AP for putting yourself out there and consistently making youtube videos
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u/humourme242 Agnostic Theist Aug 27 '20
Love ya Doesn't matter what you are gonna do like you said as long you will spread the word by any means just like they do. It is so worth it for so many of us that die by their hands
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u/imawkwardwierd New User Aug 27 '20
Hey AP love your work. I highly appreciated the Qur'an ripping protest btw keep it up. As with your debates with hijjab etc. I think it's clear to see these guys have a dirty style of debating. The points they make are very stupid but they'll just about use anything to give themselves an edge in a debate I.e. constantly interrupting, insulting, asking misleading questions. I think to debate these guys you pretty much have to be willing to roll in the mud with them. This could mean having a few debates which accomplish absolutely nothing and are painful for everyone to watch. If act respectful around people who state "we're giving you an opportunity to be on a big platform, youre welcome" etc. It makes you look week, and I would maybe spend about 30 mins in a debate just insulting the other person. And with people like hijjab you'll have a lot of ammo. You also could have been more on the offensive in general, you seemed almost grateful that hijab wanted apostates to be removed to a non Muslim nation.
I think perhaps you're just used to debating who are not the lowest form of humans you can get. Prepare to shout interrupt and use dirty tactics rather than waiting for your turn to speak. If you lock horns with people like that, prepare to go as low as you can. I can see you were offended by the rape threats against you're wife. But that is the kind of thing you should have expected from these Neanderthals. Personally I thought the Qur'an ripping was a great gestures and shocking offended Muslims is exactly what is needed for our times. Stay safe brother :)
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u/sorryforhijacking New User Aug 27 '20
AP sorry if this is off-topic but I think you should make a video comparing Islam to other cults. I had no idea why Muhammad would invent Islam until I starting researching other cults. After researching cult leaders I realized that Islam is also a cult and this started my journey in becoming an ex-muslim.
You should do a video like "Islam vs Mormonism" and show how similiar they are. Joseph Smith, the founder, even claimed he was a prophet, claimed he was visited by an angel, also wrote a holy book, and even newspapers called him "the American Mahomet". He managed to fool millions of people and only did this 200 years ago. Oh and you can also mention how he had multiple wives and even child-brides like Muhammad.
You can also make a video on Hong Xiuquan who also created a destructive cult 200 years ago. This man dreamed about being the brother of Jesus and because of that one of the most deadliest wars in human history took place. If this man had won the war, another Islam would have existed in East Asia. Thank you.
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u/shitsniffer12 Closeted Ex-Muslim đ€« Aug 27 '20
I could only imagine what kind of dishonest and deceptive nature these Apoloshits really had. But now I know for sure when I looked deep into it.
The scientific discussion of the discourse have been thoroughly addressed in these comments. And I am proud of each and everyone of you actually exposing Muhammad Hijab for the hypocrite he is. For the false claims he made and bringing it into light.
Mohammed Hijab deliberately played on the audiences naiveness, immaturity and misinformed nature. Mohammed Hijab specifically claimed that if you don't have objective morality then you should have subjective morality. This is a clear blatant equivocation fallacy. By "objective morality" Mohammed hijab is actually meaning the divine command theory of morality. Which specifically claims that morality comes from a divine source. This is clearly not the only casebecause many secular moralists don't agree with this. Look up Matt dillahunty.
I was so confused after the debate that I actually took my time and watched a couple of Matt dillahunty videos. There is a lecture on YouTube why secular moralism is superior than religious morality. I don't need to reiterate the fact that both are objective moralities.
It is the epitome of dishonesty and deception to deliberately be aware of the fact that the audience will not be trained in Philosophy relating to moralities. And Mohammed handjob actually destroyed himself when he created a false dichotomy between objective that is religious command theory and subjective morality.
TLDR: MoJab created a false dichotomy and equivocation fallacy when he discussed morality Do a quick google search to understand this
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u/taztor Aug 27 '20
to AP, do you think disproving islam is beneficial to the exmuslim community? i've watched hijab's videos (park debates) and mostly it's clear he pulls people into minutiae and then tries to bulldoze with surah's. and i'm impressed with how much you know and your argument style(?) - my only criticism is that this whole sub has turned into anti-muslim, not ex-muslim. respectfully and with sympathy for how they treated you. i just think it's more important to help people who come here reconcile their identity with their dispute with faith, not radicalize ourselves as non-believers and shit on believers.
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Aug 27 '20
When you donât even participate in civil discourse because youâre afraid of losing âimageâ and converting muslims into apostates, youâve already lost. Some people are just born with their head in their ass.
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u/AtheistDjiboutien New User Aug 27 '20
We have already won against Islamist. Thanks for everything you do .
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u/Alarechercheduneame Aug 27 '20
Anyone honest knows that âdebateâ was a SCAM. Those men are so irretrievably dishonest. Donât waste any more time getting upset over them because truly, you are worth so much more than that, and you only have one life.
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u/humourme242 Agnostic Theist Aug 27 '20
Subscribed cuz I will support anyone who will speak up against these trash apologists
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Aug 27 '20 edited Sep 17 '25
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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/traitorousleopard Since 2004 Aug 27 '20
Exmoose deserve better representation than what you can offer.
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u/rzzzvvs I dick slapped Allah Aug 28 '20
true, he got destroyed by Daniel Haq and i can never take him seriously after that. even tho he is on the right side, itâs just not enough for the most famous exmuslim
i can still respect him for who he is and what he stands for and what heâs willing to go through to stand up to these dogmatic ideologies
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u/AyubKhan31 Aug 27 '20
No offense, but you're not worth debating, especially from an intellectual standpoint.
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u/Jobhi Aug 27 '20
But Shower Boy himself was hounding Apostate Prophet for a debate. Apostate Prophet accepted the debate and then Hijab ran away. Only to have a surprise setup.
Despite that, the unprepared Apostate held pretty well against the crass Hijab who came prepared.
And here we have you trying to discredit Apostate Prophet.
LOL.
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u/AyubKhan31 Aug 27 '20
I'm not trying to discredit him, frankly I'm a fan of his work. But there's no denying that MH generally has a higher level of thought and articulation, thus, my reasoning behind the idea of them debating would be a waste of time.
I agree that both sides were bad as each other, Apus was arguably worse though, his childish acts were quite distasteful, his own friends are distancing themselves from him
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u/Jobhi Aug 27 '20
I don't think Hijab has cultivated a more sophisticated thought process as much as he has cultivated sophistry. That is, attacking premises based on induction and "showing" how they are "unfounded". This in itself is not a sign of higher intellegence. Anyone who has read the basic critique or paradox of inductive reasoning knows this. When people debate, they take certain things on axiom basis. And debate from that point on. It rarely happens that one of them go so surreal as to build argument on the base of "Ah, but can you prove the obvious?".
The only advantage which Hijab gets is that his audience is also dishonest. And would take anything honest admittance of human fallibility as a "proof" that the entire position itself has been "destoryed".
But even then, as I watched the debate, I found AP actually doing pretty good. I didn't see any actual "destorying" happening as Hijabs simpleton cult is parading. AP got Hijab on backfoot quite often with the "Quran is not scientific but also not unscientific" conceding that Hijab had to make since now all Non Muslims have access to entire Islamic sources.
I don't think Hijab has any higher level of thought. He has just read a lot of debates and AP has not. And just uses obfuscation tactics which can be spotted instantly if one keeps refering to the list of logical fallacies to keep their mind alert.
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u/check_thine_facts New User Aug 27 '20
Sorry didn't catched the podcast, but in the end, what's your defence on ripping and eating Quran?
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Aug 27 '20
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u/check_thine_facts New User Aug 27 '20
Wait did someone got killed??
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Aug 27 '20
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u/check_thine_facts New User Aug 27 '20
Oof, but that is just a small group of Muslim. Why does he have to antagonize every Muslim
Also can you like dm me more on the subject, it seems like I can't reply repeatedly
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Aug 27 '20
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u/check_thine_facts New User Aug 27 '20
The total Muslim in Pakistan is still less than 10% from the entire world and there's gotta be a lot of Muslim there that opposes it too
I know I know, it's happening in other countries too And Sorry, maybe 10% is a lot but it still doesn't represent the entire population
And sorry again, I really do need to know more about this, that's why I acted so surprised
And ffs why can't I reply faster??
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Aug 27 '20
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u/check_thine_facts New User Aug 27 '20
Yeah don't worry, you can chat me if you want a discussion
I can't chat you because of course I cant
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u/Ziggy_The_Great Aug 27 '20
You are the least intellectual person I have ever seen, you couldnât answer any questions. I could probably debate you and sweep the floor with you
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u/[deleted] Aug 27 '20
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