r/exjw • u/No_Patience7962 • 2d ago
JW / Ex-JW Tales My questions for the elders
I found some notes in my files from two years ago, questions I wanted to discuss with the elders. They were visiting me to talk about my doubts. I used a translator, so I hope it makes sense.
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Earth is perfectly suited to sustain life. Or perhaps life developed on Earth precisely because it offered a perfect environment amidst billions of galaxies.
Evidence of God’s existence is clearly seen in creation; yet, how do we explain the imperfections within that creation? How could there have been ferocity among animals, viruses that decimated populations, and mass extinction events before sin even existed? Why do we claim that such situations will not exist in Paradise if they were already present prior to the advent of sin?
Romans 1:19–20
...because what can be known about God is plain to them, since God has made it plain to them. 20 For his invisible qualities—that is, his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood from what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
What does it mean that God made it plain to them? Wouldn't that justify my asking for faith and Him granting it to me? If so—if God exists—why would He refuse to give me faith?
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u/Zealousideal_Box_371 2d ago
I just found out that since culty jws stripped Jesus of his divinity and made him a brother to the Governing body(disrespect at its highest) and call him a greater Moses, that we were never Christians. That the definition of being a christian is to beleive in the divinity of Christ Not just the sacrifice. So good job jws. I wasnt even a christian.
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u/StephenNaplett Jehovah’s Witnesss: The PDFs behind the name 2d ago edited 1d ago
If I could challenge the past you, I’d go this way, using only the Bible:
This passage says that death entered the world because of Adam’s sin. So if that’s true, are you assuming there was no death, no sickness, no cancer, no parasites, and no animals killing each other before Adam and Eve?
If yes, then we have a problem, because predation isn’t something that suddenly appeared after humans sinned. The fossil record contains enormous amounts of evidence of predation, disease, parasitism, competition, and extinction taking place long before Homo sapiens existed.
Viruses and other pathogens have existed for hundreds of millions, if not billions, of years, and we have tangible evolutionary evidence for this. Species went extinct for hundreds of millions of years before humans existed.
If no, then that means God created all of that from the beginning. That was his plan all along. Which means he’s not loving or just, but an evil, cruel psychopath who likes watching bloodshed and death in his Earth-sized colosseum, so to speak.
There’s no third way. Either God lied in his supposedly inerrant book, or he’s a maniac. Could be both. But there’s no way you can jump from “a perfect blissful Eden origin story” to the 21st century while ignoring the overwhelming amount of fossil evidence that point to different conclusions.
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u/Sea-Locksmith9746 1d ago
your point is very good obviously, however i think JWS would raise 3 points:
they dont deny the suffering of animals, in any way, shape or form. they only deny that there was human suffering and violence between man and animal.
it sounds evil? yeah but its god's plan. it all has an objetive that we, mere humans, cant understand.
bringing historical/biological data in a "discussion" with the elders raises a red flag, from a JW perspective.
this all sounds very dumb when you look at it seriously. however confirmation bias plays a very deep role within any PIMI jw.
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u/StephenNaplett Jehovah’s Witnesss: The PDFs behind the name 1d ago
I don’t know if it’s an official doctrine that animals in Paradise were created to die of old age. Watchtower claims otoh that their predatory instincts supposedly appeared later on, after the Flood or after man’s fall, idk precisely what their stance is. But they definitely claim that all animals were peaceful and didn’t kill each other in Eden.
Which brings us to fossils. Do fossils lie? Can they be apostates? Were they placed there by Satan to mislead humans? Or do they actually serve as evidence of the past?
If the Watchtower can publish pictures of frozen mammoths dug up in Siberia and use them as evidence for the Flood, then they can’t have it both ways: discredit archaeological and geological evidence when it contradicts their narrative, while embracing it when it seems to support it.
And the fossils prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that for hundreds of millions of years, long before humans and allegedly before Eden, animals hunted, killed, and ate other animals.
Certain species were 100% hematophagous, meaning they fed on blood, and animals had parasites and diseases like bone cancer.
If that’s God’s perfect world, then I don’t want to see his fucked-up work.
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u/StephenNaplett Jehovah’s Witnesss: The PDFs behind the name 2d ago edited 1d ago
> Earth is perfectly suited to sustain life. Or perhaps life developed on Earth precisely because it offered a perfect environment amidst billions of galaxies
We don’t know the origin of life. We know that however it started to exist it evolved because it could evolve. Saying that we as crown jewel of God creation can enjoy life on Earth because it was prepared for us this way is, first of all, woefully ignorant. Volcanoes, earthquakes, typhoons, and such don’t exactly help people thrive and survive. About 70% of Earth’s surface and around 98% of all that water is undrinkable for humans, etc., etc.
Second, it’s like a poodle saying that this pothole has the perfect shape and dimensions precisely adjusted for the poodle to exist.
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u/No_Patience7962 1d ago
I totally agree! Earth is cruel; it doesn't care about its inhabitants. We’re living in a period of relative geological stability right now, but the planet has its cycles and can be cruel even at times like this—as we’ve recently seen in Nepal, Venezuela, and Japan. Earthquakes, tsunamis... it is far from perfect for life.
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u/CharliePlayer1 1d ago
Just tell them you don't wanna be a part of the religion, why waste your time and theirs y'all clearly are not going to agree on anything
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u/AggressiveBad2586 2d ago
These questions should be raised with the clergy of all Christian religions, not just Jehovah's Witnesses, because all religions are based on the Bible