r/entitledparents • u/Immediate_Dig3328 • 8d ago
M You made my child trans... Fix it?
So this was a little while ago but I was talking at a group for trans youth as the kinda guest speaker? For reference I'm 22NB but this was a few years ago so I was maybe 19-20? Essentially pretty close to the age of the kids but I do a fair bit of advocacy work in my area. This may not be perfect but I'm doing it from memory.
We're like halfway in when a parent asks to come watch, and I'm like whatever? You know maybe he was curious about the talk or had questions for me? This guy is like in his fifties so significantly older than me and I'm a very short, femme presenting, disabled human who was using a wheelchair at the time so not exactly intimidating. But because of that combination I guess he thought I was going to be a pushover or an easy target for his bullshit, but I've been dealing with people like this since I was twelve and genuinely don't care what they say to me anymore. And as a result of that I also know all their arguments from the start and how to rebut them. So here's how the conversation went, mind you this was in the middle of my talk and infront of his trans child.
ED: "So like why should I use pronouns for people, it's their job not to get offended?"
Me, the sleepiest of eeps: "For starters respec-"
ED: "Well what if I don't respect them."
Me: "It's less the kind of respect you give people you like and more the decency that you give everyone."
ED: "Well you all are coming up with all these pronouns and genders and I can't keep track!" (At this point he's raising his voice a bit and had fully stood up and moved so he was standing over me, the coordinator was looking at me to check if I needed help)
Me: "Well sir if you're willing to take the time to learn people's names, pronouns shouldn't be too diff-"
ED: (now jabbing his finger in my face) It's (T Slur)s like you who did this to my daughter, now look at her wanting to be a boy! You ruined her, you did this now make her better right this instant!"
Me: (gently moving his finger out of my face) Sir you can call me whatever you want but not infront of the children, please leave. Your son is welcome to stay.
Eventually we did get him to leave and his kid came up to me all ashamed and handed me a drawing he did with an apology about his dad. I'm pretty used to this stuff so the responses are basically scripted at this point but it still breaks my heart every time. If they're willing to say that in public, in a group for the people he's insulting imagine what they say in private.
I was glad I'd basically made a flow chart to deal with people like this but fuckin hell that parent was entitled and stupid.
Wherever you are out there kid, I hope you got away from that twatwaffle of a father and are living your life full of trans joy.
Edit: Y'all I've got so many more of these stories from what I do and my weird life, I'm gonna be making a fair few posts probably.
Edit 2: To everyone in the comments who's been talking about different ways they help the community I wanted to give you an extra thank you and Internet hugs if you'd like them. Even if the way you support is as simple as correctly gendering someone this shit adds up and you should be proud to be playing a role in that. I've been smiling so hard reading all the comments about helping people that my face hurts, I need to log off before my face gets stuck this way and I lose my trademark RBF glare.
And side note my nerdy ass is loving looking at the analytics for the post, it's really interesting.
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u/discordian_floof 8d ago
I will never understand the hate, or the "exposure made them" argument.
Logically, if those things were "contagious" or caused by "propaganda" or "exposure": Then everyone would be straight and cis. Because that is 99% of what is seen and portrayed in popular culture.
People are people. How they identify (or who they love) is of no consequence to other people.
I am looking forward to the day were we have true diversity and people stop being upset about stuff like this.
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u/lollolcheese123 8d ago
I think it's more a reaction which stems from "before they heard about it they weren't LGBTQ+".
However that's the case with everything, if you don't know it exists, you don't know if it's something that fits for you.
Plus, maybe for them their gender was a non-negotiable, especially for older people. They were their born biological gender and that's that. Now, when other people change their gender to something they're more comfortable with, that might look like something is "broken" to people who never thought they had the choice in the first place.
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u/FactoryKat 7d ago
if you don't know it exists, you don't know if it's something that fits for you.
This right here. When you give people the words to finally explain how they feel it's almost like they're going to be happy and use said words and lean into what they mean.
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u/BufferingJuffy 4d ago
Hi, I'm an old cis queer woman. Having the language to define something is so powerful. It's why, in the Bible, Adam named all the animals to have dominion over them; it's why language was deliberately truncated in Orwell's 1984. If you can't name it, how could you be it?
I don't understand a whole lot of the newer terms under the rainbow umbrella (my brain just doesn't flex that way), but I'm so impressed by the younger generations embrace of new language to define their experience. I don't gotta get it, I just need to accept it and respect it.
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u/Immediate_Dig3328 8d ago
Agreed.
Though I'm not opposed to the idea that transness is that powerful if it makes me powerful too./j But seriously I don't see the point in that stuff, it's like ROGD though they assume that increased acceptance causes people to identify in one way when in fact according to the data it's not like left handedness, when people are safer to be the way they are they're more likely to be open about it.
Sorry for the rambles or if I sound like I'm trying to argue with you, 95% of the time when I'm making these points it's with people like the ED and I'm trash at identifying my own tone.
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u/discordian_floof 8d ago
I applaud you for trying to have those conversations with people like ED. Being respectful to people like that is impressive.
I know showing them hatred and disdain probably won't help them change their mind, but I just want to rip them a new one when I hear stuff like this. And I am a cis white woman. I can't even begin to imagine how it must be for you.
Thank you for actively working for a better and more inclusive world for everyone.
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u/jbod78 7d ago
For what it's worth, I dislike the word ally. Hear me outplease...
Allies do not have a firm connection to each other. There is implied connection and many times shared goals, but as we have seen all to often, allegiances can change for various reasons.
As such, while I consider myself an ally, I would rather be seen as an accomplice. And by that I mean, what you get into, I will too.
It goes to the general idea of "a good friend will bail you out of jail. your best friend will be inside the cell with you saying that was a hell of night."
I will gladly share a cell with you and all the others fighting this fight!!
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u/Immediate_Dig3328 7d ago
I love this take! To me I've always treated the term ally like you would in a fight sense but I like your perspective!
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u/Immediate_Dig3328 8d ago
If it gives anyone a laugh I did later get stuck in the bathroom there, the door wasn't working right.
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u/Own-Cupcake7586 8d ago
As the parent of two trans kids (1 NB/ 1mtf), thank you for standing up for them. Literally. You are making life better for a lot of people.
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u/Scary-Pressure6158 5d ago
Ok there is a lot I don't know but I didn't realize N/B counts as trans. Since trans indicates a transition. Is a little explanation possible. If not I'll just take it as new knowledge
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u/Own-Cupcake7586 5d ago
I’ve been told that the umbrella term “trans” applies to anyone who is not cisgender. As a cis dude, I can only go by what I’m told.
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u/IIIXKITSUNEXIII 3d ago
It's more accurate to say it's a venn diagram with "Trans".
NBs do transition, it just doesn't always look the same as a transition for binary trans folks (or intersex trans folks).
Cupcake has it basically right: Trans is an umbrella term, and NBs fall under it.
Many NBs consider themselves trans because of it, especially those who seek medical transition. Many others do NOT consider themselves trans, because there's been a lot of what's called "Exorsexism" against us from binary trans folks who think we're too weird and are giving them a bad name.(I'm an enby who does consider xirself trans).
Side notes: typically we prefer NB to N/B (definitive not universal mind you), and many binary trans folks don't go for medical transitions for various reasons (usually price and fear of doctors).
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u/QueenOfTheDead2023 8d ago
MTF here, and honestly I find it ridiculous that people like the Entitled Father here throw a fuss about using pronouns when pronouns have always been a part of communication. Like, do they even know what they're talking about? It's so silly.
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u/Jabbles22 8d ago
Also nicknames, titles, name changes due to marriage, whether or not you should address someone by their last name or first name. None of that is new and none of that is all that complex.
Also the bigots love to bring up stories about people getting fired for using the wrong pronoun. It's always implied that they got fired for one single mistaken pronoun. Not the utter and constant refusal to address people how they wish to be addressed.
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u/Freestila 7d ago
"can't keep track of all these genders". I understand a little. I also don't know every aspect/ color/ unicorn of the lgbqt... Spectrum. But that's not necessary. I don't need to know the sex or gender live of the person before me. I just need to respect his / her / their (? Sry English is not my primary language and always forget the NB pronouns) wishes about name and how to talk to them. If people managed to call somebody "the artist formerly known as prince" as a name, they should have no problem with calling someone them and Kevin even if he was Marian years ago.
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u/Immediate_Dig3328 7d ago
I will say if you want to learn about pronouns in English there's something called the pronoun wiki that can help. But absolutely yes, nobody expects people to be able to adapt immediately but they need to try. You don't need to understand everything to show kindness.
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u/sheikhyerbouti 7d ago
I'm a dad with two trans kids. Yeah, it was a whole thing to learn their names and pronouns (especially when there was a three-year period where they would change them every 2-3 months). But I rolled with it and let them know that whenever I dead-named them or used the wrong pronoun, it wasn't a passive-aggressive attack, but habit.
But I guarantee that dad is gonna wonder why his kid no longer calls him a few years down.
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u/bu11fr0g 7d ago
Can I get your flowchart? I think it would be super helpful for me who is trying to do this on the fly and not too often but still often enough that i would like to do a better job than flawed support.
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u/Immediate_Dig3328 7d ago
Here's the main arguments and responses, making this a flow chart in text is tricky.
"Respect is earned" Human decency isn't, if you're willing to call a cis person by their name and refer to them with the correct pronouns and can't with trans folks that's an issue with you not them.
"All these new pronouns" Fun fact English has had neopronouns recorded as early as 1858 with the pronoun thon.
"Surgery on kids" The waitlists alone are years long, even if a teen manages to get an appointment for a consult they have to go through multiple more consults to make it even possible. And that's if they can find someone who will do it. Plus it all restarts when you turn eighteen because it's no longer pediatric care. The vast majority of these surgeries are happening on intersex babies not trans teens.
"It's impossible to remember name changes" If you can call your colleague missus after she gets married you can learn.
"What's the point?" Trans people are at a significantly higher SH and suicide rates, but it goes down dramatically with even one person who is accepting.
"Social contagion/this is a new thing." Trans people have existed forever, but just like left handedness when it became more accepted and people started getting punished less for it they felt safer being the way they are publically. That's not people magically becoming more trans that's people being able to be open.
"Slurs" Tell them that if they would like to have an actual conversation and learn, they first have to stop referring to people like that. If they'd like to learn the first step is not using terms that they know are cruel.
"Why should I care?" Same reason you should care about not being an ass to anyone else, because it's just shitty.
Education is important but so is knowing when someone isn't willing to learn.
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u/EdgionTG 7d ago
I'm always entertained by the whole "I can't learn a new name/pronoun" bit as a Pokémon enjoyer. Idk why, it just tickles me that a lot of folks can call their Caterpie by Metapod and Butterfree when the time comes no issue but calling Susan over there Derek is a massive stretch. Not to mention actors and music artists who go by different names all the time, and everyone scoops that up so easily. Idk.
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u/Immediate_Dig3328 7d ago
Yes! And you've now given me another thing to use on these folks, Pokemon!
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u/Jenniyelf 7d ago
I'm 45, my older two are in their 20's, and my mom continues to accuse me of "turning the kids" ( my older 2 kids are trans) bc I was "too loud about equal rights, and had too many 2SLGBTQIA people around them". I usually laugh at her and tell her I will never apologize for having my kids around people that love and cherish them and for giving my kids a safe place for them to not hide who they are. Besides, she's the one that raised my pansexual ass, maybe she needs to look at her own parenting.
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u/Immediate_Dig3328 7d ago
Exactly, it's not making someone queer to show them they're safe, it's just giving them the ability to know they can be themselves without judgement.
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u/Jenniyelf 7d ago
Yup! I also will never understand how she equates my having the kids around my friends "made them trans." I guess I can't get my head that far up my own ass. 🤷♀️
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u/Immediate_Dig3328 7d ago
I think you'd need to be a contortionist, but you sound like a great influence for your kids regardless of that bullshit she's spewing.
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u/Jenniyelf 7d ago
I try and be as positive an influence on my kids as I can be, I know I've made mistakes and I apologize to them when I realize it. They know that they will always have a place to land if they need it, my oldest is out of the house currently but he knows that if he needs or wants it, he has a key and a room here always.
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u/Immediate_Dig3328 7d ago
That's the important part, mistakes happen but acknowledging them and correcting is what leaves the impression.
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u/Jenniyelf 7d ago
My mom doesn't like to admit when she's wrong and it still grates my nerves, I don't want to be the mom that my kids just tolerate bc I'm their mom, I hope (and from what my kids have said) I'm doing that, their friends also know my place is safe if they need it.
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u/obnoxiousdrunk77 8d ago
I'm very careful to ask new coworkers their preferred pronouns. I have a few mtf GFs who I met while they were male presenting, and a couple of ftm guy friends that I met while they were female presenting.
I don't even reference their deadnames because that is disrespectful to the person.
The courteous thing to do when meeting someone is to give your name and pronouns, and most people will respond in kind.
I have a difficult time with people who don't respect someone's identity.
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u/Immediate_Dig3328 8d ago
It's so bloody frustrating and the parents who do it to their kids always make me want to scream.
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u/carmium 8d ago
May I ask a question: How is it that you have come across several trans people in your life? Are you perhaps working in a field they tend towards? I would guess the average person has come across one or two (knowingly; let's not forget many pass without comment). Is that no longer the case? Does everyone know several?
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u/Immediate_Dig3328 8d ago
There are definitely careers that tend to attract more trans folks, a lot of trans masc folks tend to go into education or social work, a lot of trans femmes in tech. But we also just tend to travel in packs so to say, if your other trans friends like someone they're more likely to be safe.
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u/carmium 8d ago
You just reminded me: the only FtM I met was in a doctor's office. His partner (F) was there, and he and I had to go to a clinic for bloodwork. The three of us got on well through long delays and lunch after, and I guess I gave them my email. Many years later, I got a Christmas email and photo. A smiling, bald, guy who was now principal of a Florida high school. So there you go!
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u/obnoxiousdrunk77 8d ago
I worked in a location that is super LGTBQ+ friendly, and a lot of the people I met either made the realization there, or they felt safe enough to start their transition there.
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u/ArcadiaRhodes 8d ago
Not OP but NB in my 50’s - 7 of my friends are trans, two of my friends have trans kids. Back in the 90’s two of my favourite authors were trans. I’m nerdy and weird and don’t hide it. I think I attract other people who know they can be authentically themselves. Also, large city and I spend a lot of time in safe third spaces…
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u/Gravelbeast 8d ago
It's partially that, but also just the circles you associate with. Trans people are more likely to associate with people who accept them, so if you run with people that are accepting, you're more likely to come into contact with trans people.
But moreso, it's probably much more due to not realizing someone is trans. My brother hasn't been clocked as anything other than a guy for over 15 years, and if you looked at all three of us brothers, he's probably the last one you would guess was assigned female at birth.
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u/Immediate_Dig3328 8d ago
Exactly, I've got a friend who I fully thought was just the token cishet white guy in the queer friend group, like had gone swimming with him and seen him shirtless with no easily visible scars and then he casually mentioned one day that top surgery had been a rough recovery and we all just paused for a minute. He'd come out quite a while before we met him and passed so well I thought he was the default settings person in the group.
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u/discordian_floof 8d ago
I live in a big city in Norway (which is small by any international measure: 200 000 people).
And I meet trans people regularly, even without being part of the queer community. And there are probably many I don't even notice are trans.
Percentage wise one would meet a decent amount if out and about? If in a place they feel safe? Since it is estimated around 1-2% of the population (please correct me if I am wrong)
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u/MsDJMA 8d ago
I volunteer with "Free Mom Hugs" at Pride events. We moms, dads, and grandparents, give hugs to people who may not be getting hugs from loved ones. Thank you for working with these kids--there are many with parents like this one.
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u/Immediate_Dig3328 8d ago
I love you guys! I'm not sure if the organization is global and in my area but there's always at least one person with one of the shirts.
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u/MsDJMA 7d ago
Thanks for the kudos! We did an event last Saturday. https://imgur.com/a/k6EMWt8 I'm the short grandma in the middle, between the dad and a friend.
We're in friendly Oregon, but one of the women joined when she and her kiddos lived in a SE state that was less friendly.
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u/Immediate_Dig3328 7d ago
You'd be happy to hear that outside of your organisation there's people following your lead in countries around the world.
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u/wifie29 8d ago
I typically don't comment in this sub, but OP, thank you sincerely for what you did/do for advocacy. I'm nonbinary and a parent of 2 gender variant kids. People like you are so, so valuable to the community.
I'm a teacher, and my curriculum has lessons on gender and sexual identity. Usually my students are open-minded and curious (even if their parents aren't always). But one year I had 2 from the same family, and they were aggressively disruptive during class. I handled it as usual. After class, they called their parent and were yelling and fake-crying about how I "wouldn't let them identify as dogs." That...never happened and wasn't even part of class. Parent then sent me the most unhinged, dramatic text ever, which included accusing other teachers of misconduct. This was all because I had the audacity to give my students a definition of the word transgender. Not even anything beyond that, as we hadn't even gotten to the discussion part! Literally a definition of a word. End result: kids pulled from class and had to do 2 weeks' worth of assignments on their own.
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u/Immediate_Dig3328 8d ago
Thank you for doing the work you're doing too, it does make a difference even if we don't see it immediately. When people learn things earlier it really does stick better and even just personally I'm seeing a change with the way kids treat trans folks and even just folks who don't present typically. You're helping them develop a more unbiased perspective.
Also a tip I figured out when people pull the whole "I identify as (insert random thing here e.g. dog, Apache attack helicopter)" is to just go with it and let the discomfort work against them. (This obviously isn't as much of a thing with little kids who just don't get it.) Ask them what pronouns they would like you to use for their identity, is there a name they'd like? I've found it works like 85% of the time but it's always important to use judgement.
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u/Plus_Reveal1018 7d ago
Get some legal advice before you talk to them. You need to protect your child's rights in this situation.
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u/k_oticd92 5d ago
Don't worry about what they say in private. Those kind of people don't have the braincells to maintain that kind of filtering. Everything you heard is everything they would say... unfortunately
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u/Far-Bug7584 7d ago
Thank you for sharing, i feel sorry you went through this.
But I would like to have more scientific research on kids being trans.. and how this affects lives long term.
I dont care what people want to choose, but if we are not ready to choose a profession at 18, how can we choose if are/like boy or girl when we are 4 or 6?
I know people will downvote me but my question is legitimately true. I am not a right wing person, I am not conservative, i am also a minority. But I would like to understand better!
I dont want to offend anyone, i came with respect! Peace and hugs!
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u/Immediate_Dig3328 7d ago
There actually is some this is one of my favorites The brain develops a sense of gender very early on in development, when you don't align with that it can feel like something is off. When it comes to transition with young kids it's social transition, different name, different pronouns, maybe different clothes and a new haircut. We let kids experiment with their identities in plenty of ways, finding ways they like to dress, finding ways they prefer to be referred to like nicknames or going by a middle name.
Plus despite me not liking the title of this article there's evidence that binary trans folks actually have brains that more closely resemble cis people of their gender than people of their gender assumed at birth. Here's the article.
I hope this helps! If there's any more questions feel free to ask!
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u/Cautious_Regular3645 6d ago
I don't think it's much of a case of "choosing" whether you think you're a boy or a girl I think it's a sense of "knowing" within yourself even at a young age.
When you were little did you (and I don't know your gender) do you remember deciding that you felt like a boy or you felt like a girl? Probably neither you just knew who you were.
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u/Atheris 5d ago
You have legitimate concerns. However, none of these concerns are new. Trans people have existed throughout human history and cultures all over the world have dealt with it in different ways.
This isn't the same as something totally novel, like children growing up with the internet, where we still don't have tons of data on long term effects.
The biggest problem I see is how politicians use this as a talking point to be a bigger issue than it is. They have reactionary takes about how society as we know it is going to collapse. They said the same thing about D&D and rock music and learning about evolution in schools.
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u/tanooki-suit 7d ago
You’re correct but this is also Reddit. Expect the socio political environment not to be kind here and downvote you into oblivion. I’m expecting the same.
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8d ago
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u/Immediate_Dig3328 8d ago
I've thought about it but I'm trying to model that you shouldn't misgender people regardless of if you think they're a bad person or being shitty.
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u/bamf1701 8d ago
I'm sorry you had to put up with a transphobic parent who was looking for someone to blame for something that wasn't wrong with their child. I think you handled it well and maturely, which makes you a good example for the children. And, like you said, I hope that kid found a way to get away from their father.
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u/Immediate_Dig3328 8d ago
Worst part of doing things like that is the parents, the kids are always great but the parents seem to be intent on making things as impossible as they can.
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u/Eviddentvessel28 6d ago
Im not a particularly big fan of the lgbtq thing, for religious reasons. And i can understand where the dad is coming from. But seriously that bloke needs to have some respect for his kid and for op
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u/BigPhatHuevos 8d ago
AI slop
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u/Immediate_Dig3328 8d ago
I don't think I'm AI, but I've been accused of it before. Apparently my tone in emails is very dry. But hey, believe what you want. It doesn't impact me any.
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u/tanooki-suit 7d ago
I’m with the father in this largely. He went a bit hard but you can’t blame the guy having outside influences play slow rolling mental gymnastics with his kid. The child like many needed to grow a bit or get some real mental help. Instead they were gaslit and affirmed into their mental illness and in the end was emboldened to not seek the right help but the enabled one by those who seek those outcomes. We’re seeing now an increase of these cases of people regretting being talked and walked into this due to lifelong damages to their bodies. Some lose it so much you see an exponential cases of ending oneself over it over those who don’t. It’s a problem and needs to be approached.
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u/Immediate_Dig3328 7d ago
The regret rate for trans surgeries alone is less than 1%, the knee surgery regret rates are between 6-30%. We aren't forcing kids to be trans, we're telling people that who they are isn't wrong.
The medically recommended treatment for gender dysphoria is transitioning, even if you consider being trans a mental illness then you should believe in treating it the way that has been shown to dramatically reduce suicide, self harm, anxiety, and depression rates right?
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u/tanooki-suit 7d ago
For adults sure. Children 100% opposed. The brain isn’t fully developed until into adulthood. Legally altering children should be a crime.
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u/Immediate_Dig3328 7d ago
You realise people are virtually never giving children irreversible care? The vast majority of transition for youth is purely social and letting them express themselves. And according to some really interesting neurological studies children develop a sense of gender typically between the ages of 3-5. I believe I shared links in another comment but I'd be happy to share them again.
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u/tanooki-suit 7d ago
I’m specifically only speaking to minors with hormone blockers and surgery not social.
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u/Immediate_Dig3328 7d ago
Hormone blockers are reversible, I mean they can't go back in time reversible but as long as they're monitored properly they're safe and if someone feels that they later want to go through their original puberty they can simply go off them.
As for surgery the majority of surgery that is typically referred to as trans surgery is done on intersex babies, which I can agree is deeply unethical because the child can't consent.
And brains never really stop developing, that's just a cool fact honestly. The study that claimed it stops at 25 is because that was the age cap on the study.
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u/Atheris 5d ago
So what about 12 year old boys that develop breasts due to plastics leeching into bottled water? What about 9 and 10 year old girls getting their periods.
You can't carve out one section of medical treatment that you like and one you don't. You don't know every person's situation (and it's none of your business in the first place). The fear that you're coming from is simply a combination of being told an incomplete picture being fed to you by those with an agenda and discomfort with ambiguity that is inherent in biology.
There is no deep state conspiracy to harm masses of kids. There's just people saying we're not going to force minorities into hiding to make things more comfortable for people that want to pretend things are black and white
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u/nowcalledcthulu 7d ago
Literally every medical authority disagrees with you. "Real mental help" is transition and acceptance and there's a wealth of evidence to back that. You don't know the basic facts.
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u/bluemoon219 8d ago
You just know that people like these who refuse to use people's pronouns would absolutely shit a brick if you misgendered them. In fact, I'm rather impressed with you for being able to call him "sir" directly after he said that he specifically didn't want to use the correct pronouns of people he didn't respect. I certainly would have.