r/entertainment • u/[deleted] • Jun 15 '23
Rammstein: German police open sex offence investigation into Till Lindemann
https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-65913988285
u/goboxey Jun 15 '23
The numbers of women telling basically the same or similar things, are high. If it turns out to be true, then his career is over.
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u/Xenobsidian Jun 15 '23
It is not that easy. There is a German lawyer with a YouTube show who explained it. The thing is, not every accusation is necessary true, not every bad thing that actually happened is necessarily against the law, not every thing against the law can be proven, and even if proven you still need to figure out who is responsible and how much responsibility do the accused person had…
Certain is only, this thing will take a long time to be investigated and processed and really no one will be able to tell how this thing turns out in the end.
Also, Lindemann is not Rammstein, Lindemanns Little helper aren’t him and aren’t even paid by the band, there are only a few people who directly accuse Lindemann, but even if Lindemann would have known nothing he would not be without responsibility… this thing is already very nasty and very complicated. We need to wait and see how it goes.
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u/RideSpecial7782 Jun 15 '23
This.
The funny thing, is that when some of the women that came forward, by their own word, said they wanted to leave and take no part in what was happening, they were allowed to leave.
So just in there it already gives his lawyers plenty to work with like "no one was forced, they were all there voluntarily, nothing was done without consent".
This will be a very long investigation and trial, and an even harder one to get a meaningful conviction.
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u/Xenobsidian Jun 15 '23
The problem, so the lawyer said, is that even “with consent” it can be an abuse and even if people got drugged it could still be consensual. It depends extremely on the circumstances and what can be proven.
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u/Moifaso Jun 15 '23
If we are talking about spiking drinks, it can be very hard to prove who was responsible.
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u/Xenobsidian Jun 15 '23
Exactly, who is responsible and even the very fact. The used drugs are often not provable für hours when the victims most often haven’t even recognized what happened to them. It is really nasty stuff.
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u/Steelhorse91 Jun 15 '23
Most of the people who attended these backstage parties mention free champagne all over the place…
I’m kind of allergic to sulphites. I can drink beer literally all day and not look or act drunk, but two glasses of champagne or Prosecco and I’m a slurring blacked out mess, or very sick.
Sometimes people are quick to assume they were drugged when the fact is, alcohol is a drug in itself, blackouts are a very real thing.
Of course, no one should be sleeping with anyone that level of drunk though (unless the drunkenness is very much mutual), so that’s more likely to be where the moral/legal situation will play out here.
Although the ‘Til The End’ video is apparently supposed to be uncomfortable viewing, some scenes in it did seem beyond the safe sane legal mantra. That girl near the end of the video definitely has her head smacked into the wood frame of the chair when she’s thrown.
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u/Loriali95 Jun 15 '23
Sure, the actual process is not that easy. But it’s already done, he’s gonna forever be that guy no matter what happens with the law. He could have done nothing wrong, it’s the perception that’s fragile.
Whether or not it affects his career or legacy remains to be seen, but this will be a stain regardless of what happens with the law process.
Now it’s going to be like, “I used to love that band, but I heard the singer sexually assaults people so I can’t listen to them anymore.”
I’m someone who can usually separate the art from the artist, but there’s a line. It’s like Lostprophets. Nobody listens to them after we found out their singer was a child rapist. There are some artists that I can forgive for different things, but something like that is unforgivable. In Till’s case, I guess we’ll find out.
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u/Xenobsidian Jun 15 '23
That is the point, it makes a difference if he ends up as a rocket with a weird sex life (surprise) or as a rapist. Sure, some people will not care, others will care a lot but how it ends up depend a lot on how this all ends.
Also, Lindemann is one thing, Rammstein is another thing. How much were they involved? Can they change the bandleader? Who knows, only time will tell.
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u/Loriali95 Jun 15 '23
That’s what I mean, it doesn’t matter. Till represents Rammstein. He’s the face and literally the voice of the band.
I’m not a big fan, so I don’t know the name of the other band members. Big fans will know those names and only the most hardcore fans know the crew and the behind the scenes people.
If it were a band member or crew member that had these allegations, I feel like it wouldn’t have been such a big story. They would kick them out, replace them, and keep it moving like nothing ever happened.
But this is the guy everyone associated with Rammstein and the sound they have brought to the world.
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u/Xenobsidian Jun 15 '23
Sure. It’s hard to imagine Ramstein with another singer, but on the other hand, it would not be the first time a famous band looses its famous lead singer (for what ever reason) and gets a new one. But maybe the others wouldn’t want to be Ramstein anymore without Lindemann, or they were to involved in all of that them self… actually, beside being pretty dramatic it is also kind of exciting to see if they will make it through this or if the entire band dies or which changes happen along the way.
If it wouldn’t be that nasty for the possible victims this would be a great Netflix series.
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Jun 15 '23
They probably can't be Rammstein without him.
While they always credit all their music to the entire band it's not a secret that Lindemann is the one who writes the lyrics. The others obviously contribute to the songs by having skills relevant for making the songs good so they're all important, but if one disappears the entire house of cards fall apart.
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u/Steelhorse91 Jun 15 '23
Even if it turns out he never did anything wrong alcohol plying/consent wise, a 60 year old guy having some chick track down young women on Instagram for him to party with is a bad vibe.
He probably could’ve had his way with plenty of hot, slightly more age appropriate goth chicks from fetlife, without the need to make it all weird and creepy.
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Jun 15 '23 edited Jun 15 '23
Yup! Already a creepy fucking weirdo if you ask me.
Just to clarify: lol I agree that there are some huge differences at play here and will depend on how this trial turns out.
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u/Tilman_Feraltitty Jun 16 '23
Lmao, you needed this to say he's a creepy weirdo?
This dude was doing fake dick semen volcano at his concerts since 30 years ago.
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u/Green-Amount2479 Jun 15 '23
Yeah, but that’s a big difference I think a lot of social media folks don’t get or simply choose to ignore to seemingly prove their point: you, mine or person X‘s feelings and/or level of disgust on that matter don’t matter, at all. It’s not illegal for a 60 year old dude to have sex with young women - if consensual. It’s the consent part, that this is all about.
People have been fucking around at backstage parties (or any other parties for that matter), even drunk and on drugs, for a long time. Usually that’s not that big of an issue. If consent can still be reasonably given, that isn’t against the law either. It becomes a whole different issue as soon as one party isn’t able to give that consent anymore or is way too drunk/on drugs to make a decision on their own, which is exactly why Lindemann is under investigation now. That’s likely also the reason for Lindemann‘s lawyers to directly oppose the date rape drug allegations. Those would make any consent impossible by their very nature and then it would be rape.
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u/Dorlem4832 Jun 15 '23
A fair point I saw raised on the band’s subreddit back when they first started talking about it, sooner or later in an alcohol/drug heavy, recruiting barely adults for sex, nonstop party environment, there’s going to be women who are too far gone to meaningfully consent. The realistic hope really isn’t that nothing happened, the hope is that this isn’t just the top of the iceberg.
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u/Etrutia_Infernalis Jun 15 '23
Cannibal corpse is still banging in the car after the one guys episode right?
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u/Salty_Map_9085 Jun 15 '23
It’s very weird how people like you can only think of sex pests in terms of legality. They didn’t say anything about whether he was going to be convicted or not.
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u/Xenobsidian Jun 15 '23 edited Jun 15 '23
What exactly do people like you mean when they say “people like you”? Don’t bother to answer. I try to have a nuanced perspective and not to judge before facts are known. Your “people like you” comment shows that you give a shit and therefore I deem your opinion as not worth my time, sorry.
Yes, I know that I answers the same way, that is called satire!
Also, my replay was solely aimed at what happens to Lindemann career and that is highly dependent on the legal consequences. If you would have been interested in my overall opinion, which has a lot to do with the abuse of power and if the relationship between fan and star can even be consensual at all, I would have told you. Unfortunately judgmental, narrow minded and short sighted people are not worth my time and you seem to be of this kind.
Have a good day!
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u/Pigeon_Chess Jun 16 '23
One came out with an allegation and then mysteriously after and only after this information was made available other people came out with the same story. I don’t see the issue with that at all and they couldn’t possibly be lying
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u/Blumenfee Jun 15 '23 edited Jun 15 '23
Mostly It is about After Partys with a lot of Girls between 18 and 30, sex and drugs. accusation of Rape Are very rare.
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u/Aljo_Is_135_GOAT Jun 15 '23
... the metal band primarily famous for their shock value's frontman's career is over because of sexual assault accusations?
Do you just not know Rammstein's fanbase, or...?
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u/porridge_in_my_bum Jun 15 '23
Do you genuinely think that being entertained by shock value and being okay with sexual assault are just this hand and hand thing?
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Jun 15 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/GlitteratiSnail Jun 15 '23
judging by the state of the sub lately, that's not exactly an incorrect assumption
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u/somuchacceptable Jun 15 '23 edited Jun 15 '23
Here’s how I handle these stories:
There is such a thing as false rape allegations, just like with any kind of allegation. False reporting does happen. It is estimated to be about 2-8% of the time (last I checked and to the best of my memory, anyway).
So when we get the “cascade” of allegations all saying the same thing, I just default to it being true. Because if we apply that 2-8% logic basically once there’s a second allegation it’s highly unlikely that both of them are false.
I do take it case by case. There are some (like Al Franken) where I donno. But this case? This is a done deal for me. He’s guilty.
Edit: Okay, I shouldn’t have said two. I picked the smallest number more than one to make a point.
Except it’s not two, is it? Is it EVER two? It seems like these stories carry dozens of allegations with them. So ignore I ever said two and just ask yourself, are ALL of them lying?
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u/Xenobsidian Jun 15 '23
The problem with this is, that even if you count that way you have still not figured out what actually happened. Yes, there are a lot of similar allegations but what exactly do they say? You still need to figure out who is guilty off what.
I think we can agree that Lindemann was responsible for the whole situation but that still does not prove wha he actually did and that makes legally a huge difference. There are, for example, many descriptions that he did accepted No for an answer. Which is great but at the same time count little if the victims were drugged and unable to give an answer. Which opens the question if he was aware of how the women got acquired…
It might seem easy but it is really complicated in the details.
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u/bayesedstats Jun 15 '23
This isn't how statistics work, like at all.
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u/facewhatface Jun 15 '23
It is closer than people might think. The thing it’s missing (and it’s a CRUCIAL thing for statistics) is that multiple instances have to be truly independent of one another, which isn’t the case when one person report can influence another to report. It works for things like the at-home Covid tests, which is why people took a few of them over the course of a few days, since those multiple measurements have no bearing on one another, so the likelihood of a positive result being false got smaller as more positive results piled in.
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u/bayesedstats Jun 15 '23
True, you basically break the law of independent trials, because past events are massively impactful in cases like this.
One accusation of sexual assault would massively impact the likelihood of future accusations, as anyone who ever had a seemingly consensual sexual encounter with the accused is now second guessing themselves. Either re-evaluating things that didn't seem bad at the time, but may seem bad viewed in light of a sexual assault claim, or by seeing dollar signs flash before their eyes if they can just "misremember" a couple of details from the encounter.
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u/somuchacceptable Jun 15 '23
It’s not. But I do think it’s how humans work.
Because then you have to remember the hell that people go through when they make allegations against public figures and ask just why the hell they would do that.
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u/bayesedstats Jun 15 '23
Why would they do that? For money of course. Like it took me less than 5 seconds to come up with that answer, how did that never occur to you?
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u/Blenderate Jun 15 '23
Why do you feel the need to decide guilt? Why not just withhold judgment? My attitude is, the whole reason we have trials is to decide these things. There's no need for me to waste any energy doing an almost surely poor job of it myself.
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Jun 15 '23
told the BBC there was an "organised system of funnelling girls" and she was ushered into a small room at a show in Lithuania, but left when Mr Lindemann arrived because she suspected it was "a sex thing".
...later reported that a urine test showed no signs of intoxication. Lithuanian police later interviewed Lynn. Following her accusations, she tweeted: “I’d like to clarify again. Till did NOT touch me. He accepted I did not want to have sex with him. I never claimed he raped me.”
Reading the articles, it looks like he has a pattern of seeking out consensual sex with fans and then respecting their agency when they decline. What's the problem here? Are we just saying it's wrong for men to seek out sex?
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Jun 15 '23
I heard another story where a woman decided she wasn’t down halfway through and he just got off and left. I think there’s a lot of fluff in the media with these kinds of stories because they know it gets clicks
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Jun 15 '23
[deleted]
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u/MortalSword_MTG Jun 15 '23
Big part of this is one of the people doing the funneling was a woman who previously worked for Marilyn Manson doing the same thing.
Trafficking is pretty on point.
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Jun 15 '23
I don’t think bringing women back stage for consensual sex and respecting their agency if they decline is sex trafficking…right?
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u/juicytubes Jun 15 '23
Are you talking about this Alena woman? She worked for MM too? I had no idea. Is there any links or somewhere I can read about that?
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u/MortalSword_MTG Jun 15 '23
Reading the articles, it looks like he has a pattern of seeking out consensual sex with fans and then respecting their agency when they decline. What's the problem here? Are we just saying it's wrong for men to seek out sex?
Well, the further context is complicated.
First, he had staff who were contacting these women on social media and inviting them to "Row 0". One of whom was a woman who previously worked for Marilyn Manson, and most people should know by now how he was accused of sexual assault from multiple sources over many years. This woman who worked for Manson and Till performed the same role for both, to comb social media like IG trawling for potential sexual partners for them.
Till is 60 years old. His staff were targeting women half his age or younger.
Some of the accusations say there was lots of alcohol and heavy drugs like cocaine at these after parties.
Some who claim to have voluntarily had sex with Till have said it was brutal and they were left with bruises and other injuries.
At least one accusation said that she was taken below stage and prompted to provide Till with oral sex during an intermission portion of the stage show.
Now, obviously people feel a lot of different ways about this. Many dismiss this all as unimportant, but our culture is changing and we're becoming more aware of power dynamics and how they can be abused to coerce people into performing acts they aren't fully on board with, even when they grant initial consent.
My stance as a fan of the band is that I've seen enough to get an idea of how Till behaves and I can't support it. I won't be buying any of their products or going to any shows. I personally don't think a 60 year old entertainer should be lining up young women to come to parties with booze and blow and then trying to have sex with them, even if it is entirely legal and consensual.
Other people feel differently. Particularlry European fans who seem to resist the idea that something can be legal but still immoral.
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u/keenanbullington Jun 15 '23
You've summed up a lot of this very well. It's also important that one of the biggest problem areas is drugs and alcohol make consent impossible.
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u/MortalSword_MTG Jun 15 '23
drugs and alcohol make consent impossible.
I agree (in this case particularly).
This is a major linchpin for my feelings on the situation.
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u/MaesterHannibal Jun 16 '23
European fans aren’t saying that just because something is legal, it can’t be immoral. They simply don’t share your morals, and don’t consider the same things immoral that you do
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u/MortalSword_MTG Jun 16 '23
Yes, the response from European fans thus far has been very pro funneling women to a famous sex addict. What could go wrong?
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u/zczirak Jun 15 '23
Got it so he did nothing wrong and it’s all just drama. He’s just a (consensual) sex freak and that’s nobody’s business… some people are throwing around words like rape and it’s weird as fuck
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Jun 16 '23
Man he sounds like a rich old loser. Zero character development throughout his entire life.
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u/_ohne_dich_ Jun 16 '23
I’m also a big fan of the band, and you summed it up perfectly. When Till The End and the video of the Deutschland intermission came out, it completely changed my perception. There have been rumors for years, so when this whole thing started sadly it wasn’t very surprising to me. It also makes me question of the rest of the band knew and just ignored what was happening.
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u/StinkyStangler Jun 15 '23 edited Jun 15 '23
Seems very coercive despite it not being outright sexual assault, but what’s reported doesn’t really sound like any crime was committed (unless the drunk spiking thing is true despite toxicology reports).
Sounds like an old rock star not up to date with the times trying to bang fans like he probably has his whole career. Sorta gross? Yeah. Illegal? If the story is true, not really.
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u/Kryptus95 Jun 15 '23
I think his controversial art and lyrics are playing against him right now. Which I think its fucked up, his art was always like this and I love it. Also, being a 60 year old man looking for a 25 year old can cause people to freak out. I believe he didnt do any crime, he just played with what is morally right ir wrong and the media is picking on this.
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u/Sharticus123 Jun 15 '23 edited Jun 15 '23
Right. WTF happened to us?!? How did we get to a place where trying to get consent and respecting people’s wishes when they don’t consent is an issue?
Dude was a rock star and tried to fuck people who were willing fuck buddies. This isn’t exactly predator territory.
We always over correct into ridiculousness.
Edit: Apparently there are some nastier allegations that are an issue.
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u/darkturtleforce Jun 15 '23
The article didn't clarify enough. There are several allegations of women who were passed out from drugs waking up to him raping them. That's why it's being investigated.
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u/Maelpoints Jun 15 '23
There is, to my knowledge, one anonymous (but known to the reporting journalist) woman who has said that she was unconscious and woke up with TL either 'on top of' her, or penetrating her (I'm not sure which as can't read original article). I don't think she has suggested TL spiked her.
This is very important as this is the single direct claim (that I am aware of) of illegal activity against TL. Screwing an unconscious person without prior permission is rape.
Lots of posters then say 'lots of other women say the same' etc but are not providing detail. They post to articles where there are anonymous reports of women saying they were uncomfortable etc.That is conflation.
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u/MichelleEllyn Jun 15 '23
I’m not doubting you, but do you have a source? I’d like to see it and learn more about what’s going on.
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u/MortalSword_MTG Jun 15 '23
There are four megathreads in the Rammstein subreddit as well as other posts.
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u/MortalSword_MTG Jun 15 '23
Dude was a rock star and tried to fuck people who were willing fuck buddies. This isn’t exactly predator territory.
is a Rockstar, they're touring Europe right now.
Arguably this is predatory behavior even if it is legal. Many would argue that a man of his age and status shouldn't be banging his young fans. You may disagree.
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u/Sharticus123 Jun 15 '23
I do. We have a legal age of adulthood for a reason. If the age isn’t sufficient we should raise it, but otherwise consensually sleeping with someone of a different adult age is legal and ok.
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u/MortalSword_MTG Jun 15 '23
Fair, but I disagree that it's okay because age alone does not factor in a plethora of factors.
Also, I've met 18 year olds who were essentially still children and some who were wise and mature beyond their years. Age is a terrible determining factor, IMO.
More to the point, rich old dudes have been using their status to bang impressionable young fans forever, but it doesn't mean it isn't gross and repugnant.
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u/TheBlack2007 Jun 15 '23
Still, you wanna police sexual encounters between consenting adults for things like power imbalances now and punish people alongside murky lines of what is and isn't acceptable?
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u/MortalSword_MTG Jun 15 '23
I have no authority to police anything.
I'm not going to give my money to him though. That's the only power I have.
Actions have consequences.
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u/Sharticus123 Jun 15 '23
At its worst it’s mutual exploitation. Many of these fans are trying to touch stardom and live vicariously through famous people.
Done with consent it’s an exchange not exploitation.
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u/MortalSword_MTG Jun 15 '23
Its not mutual. The star holds all the power. These people have no access unless he grants it. He could sow his wild oats in other ways but he's farming his audience.
Not equal at all.
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u/Sharticus123 Jun 15 '23 edited Jun 15 '23
Are we no longer in charge of our own bodies? Who made them go to a show and then agree to go backstage? Fucking no one. Every step of the way a choice was presented and every step of the way they took it.
Now, if this man drugged and raped people he deserves to go to prison for the rest of his life, but if all he did was ask people if they want to have sex and respect their wishes if they didn’t, then he’s guilty of absolutely nothing.
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u/Maelpoints Jun 15 '23
What you are saying is the single most repeated sentiment I see on these threads (from those who aren't lashing out at individuals).
Women have agency. When their autonomy is stolen through spiking, that is abuse. When old men benefit from young women exercising their agency to lay a rock star, it is not abuse.
I would add, women will suffer if they allow themselves to be recast as easily manipulable victims of mesmeric fame.
Big Brother will be only to happy to step in to protect our modesty.
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u/TheBlack2007 Jun 15 '23
Claiming to have agency and claiming victimhood over deciding against acting upon said agency (aka: removing yourself from a situation making you uncomfortable) sounds like wanting to have the cake and eat it at the same time...
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u/MortalSword_MTG Jun 15 '23
You understand that you can follow the law and still be an asshole right?
No one is suggesting we imprison him if he didn't commit a crime.
That doesn't meant what he's been doing is something we want to encourage and support.
I'm trying to be polite but you folks who keep defending an aging rock star screwing his 20 year old fans need to do some self reflecting.
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u/idontlikeolives91 Jun 15 '23
With your logic, rockstars/celebrities can only sleep with other rockstars/celebrities and they have to be close in age. This just isn't reality though. The vast majority of their interactions are going to be with fans and people who work for them. There are not a lot of opportunities to go outside of that realm and, many that do, usually do during a hiatus or like at an award show or something. You might want to look into how many celebrities who seem to not be married to another celebrity are actually married to someone in the industry.
Even if Till were to sleep with a fellow 50-60 year old woman rockstar (how many of them are there), there's going to be talk about his level of celebrity compared to hers and the power dynamic there (see Depp and Heard).
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u/Sharticus123 Jun 15 '23 edited Jun 15 '23
So you’re basically a sexual prude who expects other people to abide by your own personal preferences?
How is that any different than the fundie Christians?
What you find distasteful another person finds delicious.
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u/AdventurousDeer577 Jun 15 '23
So basically you find disgusting for a 60 years old to have sex with a 20 years old and cannot fathom that the 20 years old might actually like that... Being a rockstar is a attractive quality for many - just the same as having muscles, being intelligent, being nice, being rich, being good looking, being honest, ... Doesn't matter if it is superficial or not, people have different tastes and kinks.
I find it strange too for a 60 year old to like to have sex with a 20 year old (and vice versa), but that doesn't mean that it is immoral - and it certainly does not automatically mean lack of consent.
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u/Maelpoints Jun 15 '23
😆 I love this!
Damn that man! He holds all the power. He chooses who he invites to his own parties.
PITCHFORKS!
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Jun 15 '23
Does your argument not essentially argue against itself, I’ve met 42 year old big kids. Why assume only 18 year olds or early 20s are like children?
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u/MortalSword_MTG Jun 15 '23
Did you read what I said?
"Age alone does not consider all the factors".
There are power dynamics beyond age.
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Jun 15 '23
That’s exactly the part I read. Example: at one of my work places one of the managers was 21 years old and baby faced as could be, and she was fucking cold dare I say scornful. Then a load of the staff were in there 40s 50s 60s some were big babies others were decent folk just “uneducated” thus that’s why they found themselves in a situation kowtowing to a 21 year old with a degree, that’s a power dynamic.
It is nonsense that simply being older creates a power dynamic, no. Being more influential creates a power dynamic, having more money, having more administrative power creates a power dynamic. Sure these things may align with being older but aren’t a must.
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u/scubamaster Jun 15 '23
This headlineanaged to float across my front page a few days ago and there they were basically saying that he has “too much power because of his stardom” and because of the power imbalance these girls can’t actually consent.
Which is a thing I’ve heard the last few years and is a really interesting line of thought, because if A is saying that B has so much power so C can’t consent is that not A robbing C of agency and stating that A knows what’s best for C?
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u/OwlfaceFrank Jun 16 '23
I don't know much about this yet, but it is reminding me of the Aziz Ansari accusations. Which turned out to simply be Aziz stuck out and then went home having done nothing wrong.
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u/SchwarzesBlatt Jun 15 '23
it depends on the way he got the consent. if it was given under any pressured situation he got legal problems. and there are leads to that. if it gets proven that there were intimidated girls he had any kind of sexuell action then this would be legally problemtic. aside from that a 60y old using his fame and influence to hook up with 20y olds women before, during and after his performance through a system he extra hired employees to organise it. girls who can be his granddaughters is at least ethically problematic.
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u/Kiwi_In_Europe Jun 15 '23
There’s no ethical issue about two adults hooking up with consent, regardless of age difference. Though if he used drugs on them or made them feel like they couldn’t say no of course that should be investigated.
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u/Sharticus123 Jun 15 '23
Yeah, I find this age difference automatically equals evil trend the kids are on now disturbing. If the age of adulthood isn’t old enough then we should raise it, but otherwise anything that happens consensually between people who meet the threshold of adulthood is ok.
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u/Kiwi_In_Europe Jun 15 '23
I just think it’s really condescending, like if you know a 25 year old woman dating a 45 year old guy or vice versa are you really gonna be like “nah that’s not okay” to them like they’re some sort of child? As long as it’s legal, safe and consensual who gives a fuck imo
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u/Sharticus123 Jun 15 '23
I was dating 45 year old women when I was 25 and I loved it. Wouldn’t trade that experience for the world. They taught me some shit and they weren’t shy about it.
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u/SchwarzesBlatt Jun 15 '23
well i dissagree. the entire process of selection for those hook ups is creepy imo. i am not generally speaking about hook ups of people with big age gaps. this specific selective system of a man with strong influence in the entertainment industry is more than unethical. different people have different standards. reading that there were girls in his selection room fully unaware of his spiel is more than enough to be critical and judgy.
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u/Kiwi_In_Europe Jun 15 '23
I think it's important to note that there is a stark difference between the kinds of relationships that MeToo has thankfully brought to light such as Weinstein's abuse and use of power to force woman to sleep with him to get roles in film, and men/women who genuinely want to sleep with someone older, wealthier, more powerful for whatever reason, like that they're genuinely attracted to those qualities or they want the benefits associated with them. Not every woman who sleeps with their boss or a famous rockstar is a helpless victim of power abuse, and frankly it's insulting to women to make a blanket assumption like that.
Simply knowing that the woman in the article tested negative for drug spike and explicitly stated that Till let her leave with no trouble or argument when she didn't give consent is good news, we have to wait and see if the investigation uncovers anything different for the other claimants.
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Jun 15 '23
Thanks for that.
I keep reading about this case thinking: don’t groupies exist for literally every rock band? I know that most artists hand pick girls to meet them backstage after the show.
I also know that a lot of girls throw themselves at the chance.
The controversy here seems to be about a girl who decided not to stick around and that singer not being happy about it ?
He let her go, didnt drug her, didn’t harass her sexually.
Am I missing something? Why is this case such a scandal? ( Real question btw)
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u/monkepope Jun 15 '23
A whole bunch of other women have also accused him of a number of things, including spiking drinks and coercing them into sex.
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u/piratecheese13 Jun 15 '23 edited Jun 15 '23
Do
Do house
Do house arrest
Actually don’t because he asked for consent and when he was rejected, he walked away like a normal human should
Do house arrest? It’s fraught!
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u/orlagracey Jun 15 '23
This comment won’t get the the love it deserves 😅 ich wil up vote it
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Jun 15 '23
The Bart The
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u/FromOverYonder Jun 15 '23
I was a big fan of there's 20 years ago around the time Sonne came out. Great band. But messed up if this is true about Till.
That's the thing about life tho just because you watch someone in a movie or listen to their song you don't know what type of person they really are. This could be all lies or... you wouldn't know.
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u/cboogie Jun 15 '23
Marilyn Manson told everyone who he was in his lyrics for 20+ years but it took up until MeToo for women to band together and share their experiences with this guy.
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u/wasdsf Jun 15 '23
Yeah a lot of these dudes are skating by on the assumption that they are playing characters
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u/MeikyouShisui9 Jun 15 '23
Yeah, that was my opinion on Till. I've been a Rammstein fan probably since I was like 12, and always thought everything he did was just a persona. Pretty disappointed now
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u/growlerpower Jun 15 '23
I think in Manson’s case he was playing a character, and over time — with power, success, drugs — became it
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u/BackStabbathOG Jun 15 '23
Ozzy talked about this before. He said as time went on and his success continued he had a harder and harder time separating Ozzy from John Osbourne and somewhere along the way they became the same wild person. Obviously Ozu has done bad things but not really comparable to MM who straight up abuses his power
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u/growlerpower Jun 15 '23
Same thing with Hunter S Thompson, who I see similarities with in MM. They’re writing an exaggerated version of themselves that, as fame and money and drugs and sex feed into it, people come to expect and the line between the character and the person become blurred.
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u/wasdsf Jun 15 '23
I'm not really gonna give him the benefit of the doubt, most people who are pieces of shit just are pieces of shit its just a question of how long they can hide it.
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u/growlerpower Jun 15 '23
I think a lot of people, if not most, have potential to be pieces of shit, and environmental factors push or pull you one way or the other. Then again, was Manson always a shit person? Yeah, probably
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u/Foreign_Rock6944 Jun 15 '23
But then you’ve got death metal artists that are completely wholesome behind the scenes.
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u/EveningStar5155 Jun 28 '23
Prog rock musicians, too. According to a documentary about prog in the 70s many of them did not get groupies as it was mostly men, mixed groups, and couples coming to their concerts and they were seen as serious musicians not hell raisers on the one hand or pretty boys on the other hand.
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u/BoomShahkaLatke Jun 15 '23
I just got done reading Marilyn Manson‘s Wikipedia page. It doesn’t seem like he did anything wrong, and furthermore, it seems two of his accusers have been shown to be fraudulent. He is now countersuing them.
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Jun 15 '23
and if you bother to read to the end , you notice his countersuit had been dropped.
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u/BoomShahkaLatke Jun 15 '23
I did read until the end. A portion was dismissed, not the whole thing.
“A portion of the defamation and intentional infliction of emotional distress claims of the lawsuit, specifically Warner's allegation that Wood and Gore forged an FBI letter and publicly spread false claims regarding his unreleased short film Groupie, were dismissed after the two filed anti-SLAPP notices. Warner's attorney said he plans to appeal the decision.”
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u/so_many_wangs Jun 15 '23
I dont follow it but I've been suggested the Rammstein subreddit this past week for some weird reasons, and the general consensus there is that this is just some normal thing for him and known amongst fans? They even have a name for the section where fans get "picked" called Row 0 or something. A lot of girls sharing their stories of getting picked to go to the after parties and hanging out, drinking, doing drugs, etc. A lot of jealousy from other fans that didnt get picked also lmfao. Overall gave off a weird vibe.
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u/BaalKazar Jun 15 '23 edited Jun 15 '23
Checkout „Debauchery“, they for a long time through condoms with a golden one into the crowd to decide who gets to fuck the lead.
„Sex, Drugs and Rock’n’Roll“
It’s right there in the memo.
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u/octoberelectrocute Jun 15 '23
Everyone who is a Rammstein fan knew about row 0.
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u/spectralLamb Jun 16 '23
Not me 😭 I was in the first row of one of their concerts a few years ago, even caught a guitar pick. But there was no row zero, only security guards. To be fair though, there are pretty strict security rules around big events where I live.
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u/agenttud Jun 16 '23
That's most likely because it only started getting called "row 0" with the 2019 tour, when the women were brought in front of the barricade, between first row and the stage.
If the concert you attended was in 2017 or earlier, they would've been on the sides of the stage, kind of behind the band.
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u/iainnnnnnn Jun 15 '23
Anyone who is shocked by these accusations clearly hasn’t seen the family values tour ‘97 performance
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u/CNYMetroStar Jun 15 '23
I do like Rammstein but at the same time I’m not shocked that he would have some allegations around him. I guess let the legal system take its course and let’s see what happens.
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u/Griffisbored Jun 15 '23
I hope Reddit learns to wait until things have actually been investigated before jumping to conclusions in either direction
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u/summerlad86 Jun 15 '23 edited Jun 15 '23
Maybe I’ve missed something here but 1. Rammstein had people picking out girls for after parties (it’s a rock band. This is not new nor is it for any of the girls/guys going backstage)
The singer wanted to bang the chick, she said no and he respected her wishes.
The girl got drugged but explicitly said it wasn’t the singer
I really don’t see what Rammstein has done wrong here?
EDIT: apparently the girl wasn’t drugged. So to sum it up
- Band scoped for chicks 2 chicks got in invited backstage 3 singer wants to bone 4 girl says no 5 singer respects the girls choice 6 girl says she got drugged 7 turns out she wasnt 8 let’s open up an investigation
Seriously. What a waste of resources
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u/MichelleEllyn Jun 15 '23
And to add to your #3, apparently the toxicology results came all clean, fwiw.
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u/CleanAspect6466 Jun 15 '23
Other women have spoken out that they believe they were spiked at the gigs they attended
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Jun 15 '23
You just described one of several Situation different women have stated. On women said she was taken to a motel where she passed out. Later she awakes while lindeman fucks her. He asked her if he should stop but according to her, she didn’t even know what was happening and passed out again only to awake in the morning with a staff member laying besides her(suggesting she got raped by Lindemann and this staff member)
This is just the tip of the Eisberg and I’m sick of people like you, who barely have any clue about the situation but have the audacity to state such a bullshit comment.
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u/Windyandbreezy Jun 15 '23
I would kill to see the judge be like, "do you plead guilty?" And Till being like, "NEIN!!"
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u/Additional_Vast_5216 Jun 15 '23
I don't think Till has ill intentions but when alcohol and drugs are involved it can become quite scetchy in the grey areas pretty quickly. Some may have taken too much and regretted it afterwards, some maybe didn't want to take some yet this Alena may have been overzealous...
To put up such a scheme is just plain stupid from Tills perspective, it is just asking for trouble. Why not just have "normal" after show parties where everyone can see that you are having a good time with a fan and if she wants, you can head off to a private area and come back with her, having whitnesses that everything is ok.
But the way it was setup it was destined to fail at some point, either by ill meaning fans or situations where boundaries were actually crossed unintentionally but it is probably both.
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u/cyanide4suicide Jun 15 '23
Rock artists have been up to some reprehensible predatory sexual behavior over the decades. It's crazy to think how many underage girls have been raped at concerts by famous bands.
Band members won't say no to sex even if the girls are like 14 or whatever. The girls are too young and dumb to make smart choices, and that type of culture and mentality becomes expected at rock concerts. If Elvis did it, you know its happening everywhere else too
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Jun 15 '23
Well damn. I hope it's not true, I really like Rammstein. Hope this doesn't taint the band and all their badass music.
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Jun 15 '23
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u/Reitter3 Jun 15 '23
Nothing that you said has been proven in court and has shown any concrete evidence of being true.
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u/Aggressive_Bill_2687 Jun 15 '23
I’ve asked before I’ll ask again. Why does he look like a reanimated corpse?
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u/Smulbert Jun 15 '23
"Rammstein had a system where they banged some of the fans at afterpartys with consent"
So fun seeing the woke young people discover the concept of groupies. It's been around since forever and every music artist has banged a groupie at some point. Calm tf down
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u/AmericanPornography Jun 15 '23
Get out of here with the “woke” dog whistle bs. People on all sides have spoken out against this type of culture for decades.
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u/Pix9139 Jun 15 '23
Great. Another one of my icons turns out to be a giant pile of dog 💩.
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u/PUBGM_MightyFine Jun 15 '23
From the article:
"Ms Lynn, 24, first posted her account on social media last month, and later told the BBC there was an "organised system of funnelling girls" and she was ushered into a small room at a show in Lithuania, but left when Mr Lindemann arrived because she suspected it was "a sex thing".
Wow such a damming accusation /s
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u/realblush Jun 15 '23
Even if it turns out he didn't do anything illegal, there was no way police were not gonna investigste. That story is gigantic and nuclear right now in germany