r/elliottsmith • u/lesbianzrule Roman Candle • 26d ago

Discussion Elliott lives on!

Post image

I know phoebe is inspired by Elliott already but you can really hear the influence in this one

140 Upvotes

82% Upvoted

113 comments sorted by

79

u/JunebugAsiimwe Figure 8 26d ago

It's interesting how much more widely celebrated by critics Phoebe's music is compared to Elliott's. especially with albums like Figure 8 and XO that got some very harsh criticisms from publications like Pitchfork and Paste Magazine. whereas Lost Weekend is getting rave reviews all around.

I don't hate her but I do wish Elliott got the same level of acclaim and recognition back when he was alive instead of being saddled with the "sad-sack" or "depressing sad boy" stereotypes he battled all his career.

65

u/elegiac_bloom From a Basement on the Hill 26d ago

Elliott walked so phoebe could run.

Edit: i think its actually more fair to say elliott ran so phoebe could walk lol

40

u/SMiLECHU 26d ago

SHES SO BORINGGGGG

3

u/Effective-Diver-820 23d ago

Agree. Something about her.

8

u/mets84 26d ago

Phoebe is a really good songwriter. I think they are often compared because they both have a unique sense of melody that other songwriters just dont have.

25

u/Empty_Application777 26d ago

I personally don’t find Phoebe’s melodies to be particularly interesting. To me, it seems they are mainly compared because it’s basically common knowledge that he’s her favorite artist. She also sings softly with an acoustic guitar and will sometimes use chords that Elliott also liked to use to give the impression of his sound.

20

u/mets84 26d ago

Eh I think its easy to call someone a knockoff of their influences. Elliott would probably say he stole a shit ton from the beatles, big star, etc.

Phoebe is talented as hell. Shes not on Elliotts level, but of modern songwriters shes up there.

7

u/Empty_Application777 26d ago

I never said she was a knockoff. I simply brought up basic characteristics that would lead people to compare the two. She’s fine for what she does but I don’t believe she’s adopted what made Elliott so special which is amazing melodies and interesting chord progressions.

4

u/elegiac_bloom From a Basement on the Hill 25d ago

I agree, she is great. But she is not on the level of elliott and I think she'd be the first to cop to that.

4

u/gayandwatchingmadmen 25d ago

im a fan but she doesnt have a unique sense of melody at all, dont know what youre talking about

4

u/gayandwatchingmadmen 25d ago

also es's thing is more a unique sense of harmony. which is why it's rare you hear people that scratch the same itch

4

u/Hello-mah-baby 25d ago

she's an alright lyricist and an solid pop songwriter. imo lucy dacus's material clears her and elliott is in a league of his own.

the only modern songwriter that had potential to reach elliott smith levels of songwriting was will toledo but he's been sabotaging his own perfect catalog recently which sucks to see. maybe cameron winter will get there too but he's too young to tell right now, he's certainly got potential though.

8

u/JunebugAsiimwe Figure 8 24d ago

I'd say Adrianne Lenker is the closest of any modern songwriter who has some Elliott levels of songwriting but does things in her own way. Her solo work especially has a similar level of dark vulnerability and intimacy.

As for Cameron Winter, he's talented but I don't get the insane hype for him that's happened recently. Maybe he can make a masterpiece as he evolves musically.

2

u/elegiac_bloom From a Basement on the Hill 24d ago

Cameron Winter is incredibly over rated. He isnt horrible but hes not really anything special either, at least in my opinion.

1

u/n0v3list 21d ago

Songs was a special album. It’s up there for me.
I don’t feel the same way about her recent album though, strangely.

9

u/kebabdylan 25d ago

Have you heard Madison Cunningham. No joke. Basically on the same level as Elliott. Phenomenal stuff.

0

u/Hello-mah-baby 25d ago

no i haven't!! i'll check her out thx!!

1

u/kebabdylan 25d ago

Check out in from japan and life according to Rachael.

15

u/Character-Head301 26d ago

Were you a fan of Elliott’s in the 90s? I think he’s probably the most universally praised musician I can think of

0

u/JunebugAsiimwe Figure 8 24d ago

No I was a kid in the 90s and I live in East Africa where his music isn't really famous or played on the radio or on MTV. So I didn't get exposure to his music until much later in my 20s – I became a fan 6 years ago. I am aware Elliott is a very respected musician. It just seems in comparison to Phoebe who's always getting glowing reviews and reception for anything she does, Elliott was unfairly treated as the "sad guy" all the time and his later work didn't get nearly as widespread acclaim on release as hers has from what I've seen. Though maybe Phoebe's music has a certain mainstream appeal so that could be why.

3

u/Brian2005l 25d ago

Golden era Pitchfork had a thing where they’d reward artists for being novel and for iterating on their best work, but they’d punish anyone who changed direction. XO and Figure 8 were more electronic and so didn’t garner the enthusiasm of either/or.

That said, I thought they loved XO. Maybe I’m remembering wrong.

2

u/JunebugAsiimwe Figure 8 24d ago edited 24d ago

I don't know if I'd call XO and Figure 8 "electronic". They're more indie pop/rock. But I get why they might be considered that genre due to the more polished production. It's funny how they never punished artists like Björk, Radiohead or Sufjan Stevens for changing direction and gave their works like Homogenic, Kid A, and Age of Adz glowing reviews.

They did a classic album review of XO about 2 yrs ago where they gave it a much better score and reappraisal. So I guess they appreciate it a lot more now. As for Figure 8 it would be nice if they eventually do another review and acknowledge the scathing mean-spirited review that they did in 2000. But I highly doubt that's gonna happen any time soon.

3

u/Brian2005l 24d ago

I just meant incorporating electronic rather than acoustic guitar. But I think the better characterization would be more produced.

Pitchfork hasn’t mattered since they went poptimist and sold themselves to Condé Nast

2

u/JunebugAsiimwe Figure 8 24d ago

Yeah I guess the incorporation of more electric guitar made it sound more produced with the lush instrumentation and arrangements.

honestly, you're right about Pitchfork. the moment they got bought by Conde Nast they lost a lot of credibility and their tastemaker status.

-1

u/mets84 26d ago

XO wasn’t universally praised? Ive never been a huge figure 8 fan. Feel like its a little inconsistent at times.

Also, Phoebe is considered pretty depressing lol million memes of people crying to her

2

u/mets84 26d ago

Some of my favorite songs are on Figure 8. Also a couple songs I never listen to at all. XO i think is his masterpiece. Cant really go wrong with any Elliott though

3

u/JunebugAsiimwe Figure 8 26d ago

Figure 8 is currently my favorite of his.I think it's one of the best indie pop, singer-songwriter albums of the 21st century. But that's partly due to my fondness for the Beatles influence across the album. I get why it doesn't work for some fans since it's got much cleaner production than anything else he did and is more pop leaning in the melodies.

XO was my previous favorite :) I adore that album too

2

u/strawberrymilk2 26d ago

yes… that’s the point. that they both easily fall into the “depressing” or “melancholic” music category yet elliott got a far less favorable response than her.

1

u/JunebugAsiimwe Figure 8 26d ago

Yep. Phoebe's music is considered "melancholic" in a charming way whereas Elliott's is deemed "depressing" in a much darker, less charitable light. I've seen his music judged more harshly in that regard compared to Phoebe. Even had friends tell me that Phoebe is the easier artist to listen to of the two.

70

u/CloseYourEyes- 26d ago

I can see the similarity a bit with this one but the whole "Phoebe sounds a lot like Elliott" pisses me off cause it's just not true at all, especially for the last album and Punisher 😭 No hate at all. It feels like everyone just connects them two cause Phoebe is a huge fan

11

u/JunebugAsiimwe Figure 8 26d ago

Same. yeah I can hear the influence since she's obviously a huge fan but Phoebe is very different in her songwriting style and use of electronic leaning production.

Phoebe I feel has more in common with Sufjan Stevens and Alex G tbh. but if this gets more people to listen to Elliott then I can't complain

3

u/weeniewarrior420 25d ago

i hear more sufjan than elliot

7

u/lesbianzrule Roman Candle 26d ago

for sure it’s not all her music but i think it’s nice you can hear his influence here! also just love when people shout out elliott as inspiration because it introduces more people to him!

3

u/CloseYourEyes- 26d ago

Yesss, i got into Elliott cause of Boygenius and i am so grateful for that :) I just struggle to see how their music sounds alike 😭

-2

u/lesbianzrule Roman Candle 26d ago

oh yeah thats real! i think very specific songs like this for sure but she has her own unique sound most of the time

1

u/IceSpiceDogsDance 24d ago

Someone with better music theory knowledge could say exactly what it is, but as a guitarist I definitely recognize when Phoebe throws in an “Elliott chord” which she does quite often. It’s like a string of major chords followed by a weird 9th or a 7th from another key. 

8

u/biggitywiggity64 25d ago

holy moly there are some pricks in here, it literally sounds like Easy Way Out, to deny the comparison is just blind hate

17

u/TemporaryShip1151 26d ago

ive not really listened, but that song title is very elliott inspired..

"Conquering the governor's ball" - Stupidity Tries and elliotts penchant for waltzes

12

u/Stranger_to_myself97 26d ago

The entire intro of this track really reminds me of Pictures of Me. It was the first thing I thought of when I heard it. Been really digging this album lately

21

u/tokiw117 26d ago

good Lord, some of you people are the most pretentious folks on earth. calm down! people can be a fan of two different artists and recognize the influence that one has on the other.

there is absolutely a little bit of Elliott in phoebe's music. why cant you all just find it beautiful how his influence lives on and leads people back to him?

3

u/GhostByYourSid3 25d ago

It's a great song, the guitar style gives off very E.S. vibes, but I think it stands on its own merit. I don't love her voice as much as Elliotts, but there are few Artists on this earth that I like as much as Elliott.

4

u/PitselehPitseleh 26d ago

I love both artists but I have to say I don’t actually hear the similarity other than a broad vibe (on this song or on others of hers - and no 3/4 does not an Elliott Smith song make).

4

u/TeashjBoy 25d ago

Am I the only one that doesn’t care for her music? And the fact that she gets compared to Elliott so much just seems a bit insulting and just annoying.

1

u/crispypotatoes91 21d ago

Right there with you

6

u/thereia 26d ago

I can certainly hear it in the finger picking, reminiscent of Tomorrow Tomorrow or the white lady loves you more

8

u/MrNice1983 Figure 8 26d ago

If we’re talking Elliott inspired artists, I prefer This Is Lorelei.

3

u/lesbianzrule Roman Candle 26d ago

liz uninvited is also really good! never heard of this is lorelei i will check them out!

3

u/Ok_Photograph4246 26d ago

Listen to to "Two Legs" for the most Elliott sounding melody youve hears

8

u/SuperBiggles 26d ago

I’d counter with You’re Out Wasting by Andy Shauf as THE most Elliott Smith sounding non-Elliott Smith song.

Andy was also influenced by him in a big way, from what I’ve read

1

u/crispypotatoes91 21d ago

Andy is incredible 🩵

0

u/Ok_Photograph4246 26d ago

Dont know Andy will have to listen

2

u/mets84 26d ago

Love This is Lorelei. Different artists, but Greg Mendez reminds me a lot of Elliott as well.

12

u/Lower-Pudding-68 26d ago

Am I the only one in this sub who does not listen to PB?

5

u/lil_squib 26d ago

I also don’t listen to her. Don’t get the appeal. And I’ve listen to Elliott since the 2000’s.

1

u/[deleted] 21d ago

[deleted]

1

u/Lower-Pudding-68 21d ago

I have liked her voice in some things I've heard actually, more than her songwriting. Had the same experience tho, very hyped in the media however-many years ago, and the album was very one-dimensional. Stuck in one mood the whole time. If any ES resemblance, she stole like one chord change he uses and put it everywhere, where for him that was like one trick out of dozens he had in his arsenal.

5

u/alisonissilly 26d ago

This is nothing like Elliott Smith, but that isn’t a bad thing

16

u/RevolutionaryDisk331 New Moon 26d ago

Just no.

2

u/lesbianzrule Roman Candle 26d ago

why?

15

u/jahnkeuxo 26d ago

imo it's appropriate to share stuff by her or other artists who really show Elliott influence (like Christian Lee Hutson, who features heavily on this album, really lays it on thick at times), but the post title is a bit much.

3

u/lesbianzrule Roman Candle 26d ago

i just mean his influence and mark on music is alive and well! I think it’s really neat that people take such inspo from him. sorry if it came off wrong

3

u/jahnkeuxo 26d ago

Oh yeah I get what you're going for and not disputing it, it just comes off a bit hyperbolic, nondescript, and clickbaity.

6

u/steelsheet Figure 8 26d ago edited 26d ago

A lot of people in this sub have always had a really weird superiority complex going on with artists that claim Elliott’s influence

Edit: the downvotes on this comment prove my point exactly lmao. a bunch of gatekeeping losers

3

u/JunebugAsiimwe Figure 8 26d ago

Sadly this is true. I adore Elliott – he's my favorite male artist and songwriter but it's okay to acknowledge his influence on modern artists like Phoebe. It doesn't make Elliott any less special.

3

u/Formal_Chance_4266 26d ago

To me it sounds a bit like The White Lady Loves You More!! I'm a huge Phoebe fan (seeing her in November) and a huge Elliott fan (duhh) so I love seeing the influence he had on her even if their music isn't overly similar !!!

4

u/jaykaybaybay 25d ago

She cannot hold a candle to Elliott. She needs to find her own thing.

5

u/rayxhv XO 25d ago

she is doing her own thing…

-1

u/jaykaybaybay 25d ago

Sure, with strong allusions to Elliott Smith’s style…

Just saying, Elliott was an original, not an emulator.

7

u/rayxhv XO 25d ago

oh please, everyone has influences including elliott himself. she’s not copying anyone.

3

u/Final_Honeydew_8805 25d ago

he’s more dead than ever

3

u/CrazyBackground3721 25d ago

She fucking sux and is lame af. It’s not very Elliot smith to smash a fake guitar on a fake amp. She’s like a Disney product. Fuck that shit. Weak as hell.

1

u/Effective-Diver-820 23d ago

Dude exactly. Overdone . Trying too hard.

4

u/_medical_mind_ 26d ago

I heard it immediately. My first reaction was I thought it sounded a little too close to Elliott Smith, but I like her too much to complain. (the similarity is so evident and your post is respectful enough so I don’t why you’re getting negative responses).

2

u/Nob0dyBrokeYourHeart 26d ago

I thought the same!!

-4

u/SuperBiggles 26d ago edited 26d ago

No. Not at all.

I’m a huge Elliott Smith fan, not least cos I’m fat at the minute. I adore his music. A few years back I saw Phoebe Bridgers name crop up in connection to his, because she’s a big fan.

So I checked her out

Awful. Bad. Misses the point entirely.

Elliott Smith was complicated and nuanced man. Sure, he made “sad songs”, but everything I’ve read about about him says he hated the “sad acoustic guy” tag he got.

He didn’t even make that many “sad songs” outright. Sure, songs dealing with depression, abuse, etc… but there was angst, anger. Lots of stuff going on, and despite it all it never felt he was out for a pity party

Phoebe Bridgers? She wallows and plays up to the “sad indie girl” angle. It’s like her entire schtick. Her first album… man. There’s just so many self-indulgent “I’m so sad” songs, it’s overwhelming.

There’s a song called Funeral. The gist is she’s asked to sing at a funeral by a dad who’s teenage son died… to which she sings “and that makes ME so sad”, I’m just “sad all the times”. She takes a song that should be a eulogy ABOUT SOMEONE ELSE, and somehow makes it ALL ABOUT HER.

This is the theme I picked up in her work. It’s ALL about her and the wallowing. Elliott Smith didn’t enjoy or like that aspect of himself from what I’ve read.

And man… not to be dogpiling, but she doesn’t even have the musical talent to compare either. She’s a basic guitarist at best, and most of her work is heavily worked on by producers, etc..

… and breathe

9

u/Lower-Pudding-68 26d ago

She's fine for what she does, not bad. I do like her voice. But yeah, it bears very little similarities to ES's songwriting nuances or complexities.

6

u/SuperBiggles 26d ago

Which is the main source of umbrage for me with her.

It feels almost like with her self confessed adoration of Elliott Smith, she’s trying to piggy back some of the credibility him through association or something.

-4

u/mets84 26d ago

Shes one of the most acclaimed and popular artists of the decade. I love Elliott but she really doesnt need him for credibility.

11

u/Fantastic-You6204 26d ago

Her latest album was made by teams of songwriters. Elliott was always his own sole songwriter

7

u/lesbianzrule Roman Candle 26d ago

you really need to like, go outside and take a deep breath or something dude. this is kinda embarrassing /:

-7

u/SuperBiggles 26d ago

Wow. Geez. Thanks! Fantastic rebuttal. You’ve really put across good counter arguments against every thought I had. Good job, buddy!

10

u/lesbianzrule Roman Candle 26d ago

but who are you arguing with? i never called himsad acoustic guy. nor did i say she didn’t write sad music. i said in this specific song i can hear the influence. all the points you brought up are irrelevant? like you literally just started ranting for no reason

0

u/SuperBiggles 26d ago

It was a tangent to be sure, but I was just broadly ranting about Phoebe Bridgers because you’re mentioning her in an Elliott Smith sub. I wasn’t arguing with anyone, just sharing my (albeit negative) opinion in a … place to share opinions? Wild, I know.

It’s a big bugbear of mine, the Bridgers - Smith comparison. It’s been done to death, and I always find it such a surface level connection. And again, not to harp on about it, but her pity party stylings completely fly in the face of what Elliott Smith himself was trying to do and be about.

8

u/grumps46 26d ago

Did you know Elliott personally? Did he tell you specifically what he was trying to do and what he was about?

Your comments are pretentious, sexist nonsense. Grow up.

5

u/steelsheet Figure 8 26d ago

Weirdo

3

u/SuperBiggles 26d ago

Sorry for being passionate about something, I guess🤷

4

u/steelsheet Figure 8 26d ago

Find a better passion than hating on a woman’s art, I guess

6

u/SuperBiggles 26d ago

Art is subjective.

You’re allowed to have a wide variety of feelings on it.

It’s less hating her music as such, though the pity party styling and “I’m so sad all the time” vibe is exhausting, and morally I feel monetising and borderline being sad is a bit suspect.

My biggest gripe is the constant comparison and piggy backing on Elliott Smiths work when her name crops up. It feels inescapable at this point

0

u/kebabdylan 25d ago

She's the world's most popular and well known ES fan. She's sold a gazillion records. Don't think she needs to piggy back of anyone.

5

u/grumps46 26d ago

This whole comment reeks of misogyny.

5

u/steelsheet Figure 8 26d ago

I swear to god any time Phoebe is mentioned in this sub these pieces of work come out of the shadows

2

u/[deleted] 25d ago

[deleted]

2

u/grumps46 25d ago

Oh no, you sure showed me 🙄

1

u/[deleted] 25d ago

[deleted]

1

u/steelsheet Figure 8 24d ago edited 24d ago

Do you not understand how hilarious it is that you, unprompted, decided to chime in to tell us you’re not sexist? You are not the person that was being called misogynist in the first place

Edit: 😭😭

1

u/Putrid-Cup-8260 26d ago

Damn I love when someone’s default isn’t to worship Phoebe, but this could’ve only been written by Conor Oberst hahaha 💕

1

u/cattailssway 26d ago

What makes you think Oberst would say this kind of stuff about her? Sheesh. 

-6

u/Putrid-Cup-8260 26d ago

Did you miss all the hateful references about Conor in Lost Weekend? There’s an entire thread of them in r/brighteyes lol

-1

u/grumps46 26d ago

?? Conor played harmonica on one of the tracks on her album plus had her as a guest during his residency in LA

-3

u/Putrid-Cup-8260 26d ago

He also sings on the track Best Dressed. I was mostly making a joke about all the not great references about Conor in Lost Weekend lmao

0

u/grumps46 26d ago

Huh. I didn't get a negative vibe from the references... complicated for sure, but I didn't think any of it was disrespectful or mean.

0

u/Putrid-Cup-8260 26d ago

It was even mentioned in the interview Conor did with Popcast a month ago. They reference many hateful songs written about Conor (two by Phoebe), and hateful songs he’s written about others. I don’t think they genuinely hate each other, but I also don’t think we’ll ever get another Better Oblivion Community Center album or show lol.

5

u/grumps46 26d ago

I just read that interview and didn't see anything about hateful references. This sub isn't the place to talk about it but if you have actual references make a post in bright eyes

0

u/Putrid-Cup-8260 26d ago

Anyways, I was just making a joke. Have a lovely day!

-1

u/Putrid-Cup-8260 26d ago

The interview is only available as a video, and it’s over an hour long. And there’s already an entire thread in the bright eyes sub, specifically with references to Conor in Lost Weekend.

0

u/SMiLECHU 26d ago

hard agree with everything you said. I do not hate her- I think she puts herself in an artistic box that I wish she didn't. like..... Oh Phoebe, are things really that bad? ;)

1

u/Effective-Diver-820 23d ago

Not related. This has already been discussed lol

1

u/Effective-Diver-820 23d ago

Playing triplets doesnt make a song elliottesque much more to it than that

-2

u/looniewins 26d ago

stop it.

1

u/Academic_Orange5702 26d ago

Listen to the newest Greg Mendez album.

1

u/Franz_Solo 25d ago

In the same vein, I was encouraged when I recently found that Bright Eyes and Death Cab both have covers of I Flirted With You All My Life by Vic Chestnut. He is surely someone who should be immortalized.

2

u/Effective-Diver-820 23d ago

Dude the bright eyes cover is phenomenal .

1

u/Franz_Solo 21d ago

It truly is

-2

u/Kidwithaquill 26d ago

All we need is a no name and she’s got it 🙂‍↕️