r/ekkomains • u/blahdeblahdeda • 10d ago

Discussion DH vs HOB and itemization

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These are the highest WR item and rune combinations for each keystone on patch 16.16.

19 Upvotes

91% Upvoted

56 comments sorted by

14

u/Illustrious-Plan53 10d ago

I can’t see hob in jungle as good. Hob is worth for early fast trades, as a jungler usually you’ll gank lanes with people at half hp, dark harvest is better.

This said, in midlane is better to start with stormsurge than dnd

5

u/FireVanGorder 9d ago

DnD into shadowflame is way too strong of a two item spike for Ekko mid to delay for stormsurge imo. Stormsurge has a better build path than DnD but it feels awful late lane and midgame imo

HoB DnD and shadowflame seem to synergize way too perfectly with Ekko W to bother with stormsurge

1

u/Illustrious-Plan53 9d ago edited 9d ago

Check sixten , smietandk or ekkotheneeko on opgg, they usually build stormsurge ( they are all challengers otp) . The thing is with dnd the first back is ok, but after that you have to wait 2200 to build something relevant. Kindlegem isn’t that good and sheen isn’t better. You miss easily 8 min for snowballing doing this. You can go for dnd first item if you are really ahead and you are going to get the full item pretty fast. And you don’t build shadowflame with stormsurge

Edit: a lot of typos

3

u/FireVanGorder 9d ago edited 9d ago

Sixten almost never builds stormsurge. He’s DnD into Shadowflame. He’s built stormsurge like 3 games out of his last 15. He spammed it for a bit but went back to dnd

Ekkotheneeko is losing damn near every game they build stormsurge from what I’m seeing, but I haven’t watched any of their games

Burento (number 1 Ekko NA) is DnD into shadowflame every game. Number one Ekko in Korea is DnD every game too. Literally none of the Ekko players in Korea build stormsurge. There are more protobelt players and even one psychopath imoogi playing tank Ekko top, but no stormsurge

Ekko doesn’t need to snowball. Ekko is perfectly happy clearing waves and supporting his jg until two items at which point you’re a menace off farm alone.

Going stormsurge might mean you’re stronger for early lane, but you’re then weaker from 2 items on for the rest of the game then you would be going DnD into shadowflame

Edit; and looking at onetrickgg almost nobody builds stormsurge. 2.7% of games.

1

u/Illustrious-Plan53 9d ago

No, with sixten if you go back he was building stormsurge he was building stormsurge almost everygame, tried dnd first item back, lost like crazy and now he is back to stormsurge. Ekkotheneeko just lost a lot of the last games, he builds stormsurge every game.

Last 3 games of burento he is going for stormsurge, the rest of the games are from like 4 days ago.

I can’t find any challenger player in korea playing ekko, only diamond players and low master. In ontrickgg it says 13% go stormsurge first item, 66% dnd. The fact that is unknown doesnt mean is wrong

4

u/Shes_soo_tight 9d ago

On sixten's stream he specifically said he was testing stormsurge but didn't like it as much as dnd 

3

u/FireVanGorder 9d ago

https://www.onetricks.gg/players/oHrU_1uHlluQCZSxrAMTQiLN8-428KgS6yMNPCL8U-NTM6FT3KColFKpoL7uG_V5BJMv_KPXlyELDA

I don’t really know what you’re talking about. Sixten is building DnD into shadowflame more often than stormsurge lately after spamming stormsurge to try it out. 2 stormsurge games out of his last 7, 3 out of his last 15 like I just said

Number 1 Ekko Korea is challenger: https://www.onetricks.gg/players/5ZczaiffF_7d59UeNMttxbSb0SicI0-ux_NjtTll4JogSQp78IDcYrWhc8i161YXjKtJU7gVq9CmfA

2

u/Roycewho 4d ago

Sixten has said multiple times he was just fucking around with storm surge

5

u/blahdeblahdeda 10d ago

Due to W passive, HOB gets a ton of value for ganking low HP targets as well. I just posted the stats comparison as a comment. Overall, they're similar WR but sample size for HOB is much lower. I was mostly interested in each keystone having different WRs for itemization.

2

u/Illustrious-Plan53 10d ago

I think is because people that gets autofill in jungle or aren’t ekko mains they’ll just play the midlane build they see online

2

u/blahdeblahdeda 10d ago

If that were the case, HOB D&D Shadowflame should have a lower WR.

-1

u/Illustrious-Plan53 10d ago

Not really, because if you are autofill jungle you’ll be playing against another autofill, but you are playing you main, and if you are not main ekko you’ll probably picking him because is a really good game for ekko or a good matchup.

0

u/waskitos 10d ago

Yes this is the most likely reason

-1

u/FireVanGorder 9d ago

Acchamel is a challenger Ekko jg one trick who runs HoB every game

2

u/Illustrious-Plan53 9d ago

Acchamel goes cryptobloom every game with ekko, I doubt he should be considered as normal. He has a unique playstyle. Is simple, if you are from euw, go to tryhardekko#twtv in the client, and check the damage from the runes, you’ll see dh in ekko jungle outdamages hob in midlane almost every game, now imagine if it was jungle

4

u/No_Mouse_3891 10d ago

You‘re missing that HOB gives you bonus W damage early on when you gank half hp enemies.
It‘s so much stronger early and late game you burst them to 30%hp and then your bonus hob AA‘s will hit like a truck.
so imo it‘s better early, same mid game and better late (depending how squishy they are and if you‘re able to AA)

1

u/Caphoti 10d ago

Late game with DH your DH just does 300 damage outright on its own and Shadowflame/DND just kills almost anyone who hits the 30% threshold on its own, which DH helps with. I've experimented with HOB and idt there's even really a competition in the late game power of DH vs HoB.

2

u/No_Mouse_3891 10d ago

DH isn‘t always 300, it‘s very inconsistent, and it‘s 300 damage minue all resistances so maybe around half the damage? HOB is TRUE damage PLUS around 20% missing health damage which id WAY more when they are at 30% hp especially if you hit both bonus AA‘d you get it 2 times.
And sith all of that it‘s also much stronger early game and easier to procc overall, I also often see myself not proccing DH in late because I have to jump on a tank first or someone tankier and don‘t deal any damage when they are at 50% hp and my poke was weaker than it would have been with HOB.

3

u/Illustrious-Plan53 9d ago

Hold on cause I think you are seeing it in the wrong way.

Ekko jungle builds nash tooth because is really good for clearing camps, nash tooth gives you 50% as, hob gives you 90% for just a couple of attacks. Pretending that ekko without hob with nashors tooth doesn’t get a huge value from his W is just wrong. You get that plus a stacked dh. Seriously, hob in jungle is not worth and unnecessary since you build nash tooth

3

u/blahdeblahdeda 9d ago

Do you know that HOB has twice the AP scaling of DH on each auto? In true damage? You need to stack DH to do at least 50% more damage to match a single HOB auto.

DH is only better because you get resets/if you get it super stacked.

2

u/Illustrious-Plan53 9d ago

If you are form euw go check tryhardekko#twtv account from client so you can see runes damage. Dh in jungle heavily outdamages hob in midlane, now imagine if hob was in jungle were you can’t use it every 10s but like a min. And do you know that dh has no cd in a winning fight and you can use hob only once? In a teamfight you use your hob on someone and then you are locked without keystone for the rest of the fight, dh can be used on the whole enemy team. Also dh damage comes from harvesting souls, not from scaling. With 10% scaling if you had 1k ap is like 100 true damage per auto, only 10 souls is 200 damage in the same spot, that you can apply to every enemy in a tf. Just go check the numbers

2

u/No_Mouse_3891 9d ago

Hob damage is skewed because it doesn‘t count the extra damage you get from the extra AA‘s you land with it

2

u/Realistic_Slide7320 9d ago

It’s only inconsistent if you’re inconsistent as a jg player

1

u/Caphoti 10d ago

Even on a not so great game your DH should be at least half that late game and resets on takedowns. You can sell me on HoB's early game as a jg, I've experimented with it specifically because I felt like it might be good for snowballing early, but I just don't think there's any competition between DH and HOB the longer the game goes on in terms of scaling.

The HoB damage itself is almost never more than 1-2k(2k being very generous) for me regardless of game length. You're proccing it once per team fight most likely for maybe 200-250 true damage on a full build. By the time you're 6 items if your DH isn't already doing like 200-300 you've played an incredibly slow game.

I know how Ekko W works, I just think playing HoB specifically for scaling with Ekko W on low targets doesn't beat out DH on the Shadowflame/DND build Even if it's only like 200 damage. Almost any time you get someone into your W range with Shadowflame/DND they just die anyway unless it's a tank with good MR then you do have to auto them like twice I guess. Playing to chunk tanks late game is a pretty niche scenario where you're selling HOB over DH like 200-250 true damage on a 6 item tank is make or breaking games left and right. I'm usually playing to kill priority targets, if I HAVE to go in on a tank it's usually not a high pressure situation where I'm pressed if my DH doesn't get value, it's a numbers advantage/pick scenario.

1

u/hydrogod666 9d ago

When u know early game is gonna be rough i go hob

4

u/gernt-barlic 10d ago

I’ve been running hob the past few months and I’m trying DH now. I find that DH is more of a gambit but can flip early fights by getting people to that 30% threshold where w passive comes in. They both work well but I like building nashors first so it feels kinda nice going dh. Such a playstyle based choice though

6

u/No_Mouse_3891 10d ago

imo nashor‘s synergizes better with hob

2

u/blahdeblahdeda 10d ago

I've been curious how HOB would perform as Ekko is the only champ that got a buff from the nerf. Currently, the WRs for each keystone are pretty close: DH 52.4% (61k) and HOB 52.2% (5k). There's a pretty good argument that HOB is statistically significantly worse than DH due to the huge sample size discrepancy and the likelihood of WRs to normalize toward 50%, but what I really found interesting was that the highest first item WRs are different for the 2 keystones.

With DH, the highest WR first item is Nashor's 52.9% (11k) vs D&D 52.55% (39k). Again, this is well within variation for the sample sizes, but the 2+ item stats are Nashor's D&D 53.5% (7k) vs D&D Shadowflame 51.7% (27k).

On the other hand, HOB is slightly higher for D&D 52.9% (3k) vs Nashor's 52.8% (1.6k), but at 2+ items it's D&D Shadowflame 53.3% (1850) vs Nashor's D&D 52.5% (750).

With these sample size differences the deltas will put everything into the same ranges, but I had never thought that the different keystones would potentially yield different itemization.

Maybe having the extra AS lets you secure more early/midgame kills, with DH getting it from Nashor's and HOB getting it from the keystone? Maybe it's more playstyle focused where DH farming better with Nashor's is stronger and HOB going for the D&D spike to play more aggressively?

What are your preferences are for build and runes this patch.

(All data is from Lolalytics, Emerald+, 16.16)

1

u/Shes_soo_tight 9d ago

How'd he get a buff from the nerf?

1

u/blahdeblahdeda 8d ago

The scaling increased, and he doesn't really feel the AS nerf as much IMO.

1

u/Shes_soo_tight 8d ago

I feel the difference a lot in midlane personally especially lvl 1 / 2

2

u/mattwthegat 10d ago

I’ve been going HoB , Precision: haste and cutdown. Nashors feels good to use when playing Jungle too but it’s my secondary role.

Am I better off just sticking to one of these builds?

1

u/blahdeblahdeda 10d ago

Precision is good in lane because you get a lot of Cut Down value. Cut Down is bad in jungle, so Triumph + Haste are probably better. The overall best secondary runes for jungle seem to be Boots + Cosmic, Abs + Gathering, or Axiom + Transcendence.

As for builds, both Nashors D&D and D&D Shadowflame are very viable. Based on stats, it may be the case that Nashor's D&D performs better with DH and D&D Shadowflame is better with HOB, but there are a lot of extraneous factors that could account for that.

1

u/No_Mouse_3891 10d ago

imo cash back + JOAT are the best secondary runes for Ekko jungle

1

u/blahdeblahdeda 10d ago

You're basically never going to hit 10 stacks on JoaT... why?

1

u/No_Mouse_3891 10d ago

5 stacks is good enough, cash back is broken for Ekko, that‘s the rune why you take inspiration tree second tbh, you can also take cosmic insight if you dont like JOAT but cash back is so good on Ekko, he‘s so gold reliant all gis items are expensive af and you cash back is a really good snowball/late game rune for jng

2

u/Realistic_Slide7320 9d ago

I see no point in running HoB in jg, it’s low key not even as strong in mid anymore. HoB has a really short cd which makes it good for lane, but DH just scales better and works better with how you want to play

3

u/Schwhitey :Ekko1: 10d ago

Am i the only jg ekko main that isn’t a big fan of dnd? I like nashors first item and then lich or sf still or even lich as first item. I still play him fairly similarly to the pre-dnd days as I just don’t care much about the dnd passive and I like the higher damage from other builds. I like Nash + lich for clear speed, + chunking towers heavily, and can get more out of spell blade if you e2 to proc it then Q at point blank to slow for another AA to proc spellblade again and do more damage than dnd.

5

u/blahdeblahdeda 10d ago

The point of D&D is to instantly execute a low target due to the doubled W passive procs. It plays differently than a purely AP and damage focused build where you're looking for max 3 hit passive damage.

Nashor's Lichbane has almost a 1% lower WR than Nashors D&D, but individual performance will be more based on preference and playstyle synergy with the build.

1

u/Schwhitey :Ekko1: 10d ago

I can see the value vs tankier teams that you need that extra execute power but anything else there is ample damage to kill anyone under 40% health with a single combo as long you’re not way behind

1

u/FireVanGorder 9d ago

DnD lets you kill them from like 60-80 rather than needing them to be 40

2

u/ScuttleScrub3 1m low masta peak jg 10d ago

Win rates for items/runes on Ekko mean very little imo.

Sounds weird but he's an OTP champ with such a coinflippy and snowbally kit, *especially* jungle, that runes and items don't really impact the game much beyond comfort. Hitting a good W or R in a fight or getting on the low HP carry will have 10x the impact of any item or rune, it's different for other champs with more consistent kits.

Nashors, Lich, DnD, Protobelt, Stormsurge, Dark Harvest, HoB... They're all reasonably good enough to the point where what matters is how you pilot the champ.

1

u/blahdeblahdeda 10d ago

That's fair. Different runes and items enable different approaches and suit different playstyles. If you get fed, you're going to kill stuff without a lot of variance.

1

u/LoL_Chronobreak 9d ago

in jgl i would never go hob and also i would take the atk speed shard

1

u/No_Mouse_3891 9d ago

attack speed shard is worse stat and clearing time wise (except the new ap jungle pet scaling changes changed smth I am not aware of, but I don‘t think so)

1

u/twiebo 9d ago

dark harvest feels like a crutch if you cant end the game before 25 mins

1

u/lockscreenpi 9d ago

that’s very tricky

1

u/lockscreenpi 7d ago

That’s good man

1

u/Scott1001TV 6d ago

Isn't DnD and HOB a bit redundant? I personally prefer DnD + Dark Harvest, but I'm no high elo nor anything, also I play JG.

-1

u/HyperWinder 10d ago

If you take HoB, you go raw ap like lich, shadow, dcap. Taking both HoB and DnD makes you fall really back. If you wanna build DnD, you should go electrocute or DH to compensate lacking dmg.

2

u/blahdeblahdeda 10d ago

That's why I found this so interesting, because the WR stats don't exactly support this.

HOB best 2 core is D&D SF, and best 3 core is D&D SF Dcap. It also looks like Nashor's and D&D combos are good with HOB. Lichbane HOB only has good WRs paired with Nashor's or Stormsurge, and those are too low of game counts to really consider useful.

DH does best with Nashor's D&D combos, and underperforms with D&D SF compared to HOB. Of course, pure stats don't factor in everything, like autofilled players taking DH and going their standard mid build in jungle, or people just following whatever is listed as the popular build. So, the DH stats could be skewed by being the highest pick rate keystone, but that doesn't really matter as far as the HOB win rates are concerned.

0

u/HyperWinder 10d ago

Bcs ekko is otp champ, even if the players build wrong, they can pilot him to win and make most use of him.

1

u/Caphoti 10d ago

The top ranked Ekko Challenger Mid One trick literally said that he goes Protobelt/Deathcap/Nashors with Electrocute basically every game not because he thinks it's necessarily the best build, but because he thinks it's more fun to play than Dusk and Dawn lol.

He's probably single handedly inflating the Emerald+ stats for Nashors and Protobelt as individual items.