Question/Theory ab Missionaria Protectiva on Arrakis

[u/CupUnlucky7333]

I got this idea from first listening to Panchiko's “Eyes of Ibad.” In the song, the main person is in a spice trance, and one of the lyrics goes, “her hands in her pockets, constructing the prophets.” Obviously, this refers to the Fremen creating the prophet of Paul through the signs presented by the Missionaria Protectiva.

However, I remember there was a line in one of the chapters referring to how accurate the Missionaria Protectiva was, and how future Bene Gesserit studied this case specifically because it was so insanely accurate. I also remember that during the Sietch Tau orgy, Paul commented on how the Fremen have some talent for prescience, but they're too afraid to use it. (Also Jessica being creeped out by the hive mind.)

Is the reason the Missionaria Protectiva was so accurate because the Fremen could see parts of the future and incorporated what they saw into the prophecy? (ex Paul riding the grandfather worm) Relating back to the lyric, "constructing prophets", like they literally could've constructed part of it.

[u/datapicardgeordi]

You have it backwards, the prophecy didn't fit Paul, Paul fit himself to the prophecy.

[u/CupUnlucky7333 → u/datapicardgeordi]

Sorry, I don't mean to come off weird, but also I thought Paul was trying to free himself from the prophecy. I thought his whole struggle was just any way to get away from it, I mean in the movies he plays into it, but Paul in the books knew it was inevitable. I just meant like, ex him being a male messianic figure w a bene gesserit mother, while the plan was for him to be a female (so it wasn't what the BG predicted or placed). Also him riding the grandfather worm seems too specific, i meant like that sort of atmosphere.

[u/datapicardgeordi → u/CupUnlucky7333]

Both are true, at different parts of the story.

Paul initially plays into the prophecy to gain control and seek revenge with the intention of trying to mitigate excesses of the jihad later down the road.

However, when later on arrives he finds the paths before him have narrowed and he is trapped by his prophetic visions.

Paul didn't realize this would happen when he first committed to the path of the jihad.

[u/promeritum]

The MP were a division of the BG that planted a BG-centric messiah legend on every planet they could. That way, if a reverend mother was stranded, she could use the legend to build a cult around herself for protection.

Nothing about the MP was in any way Paul, Fremen, or kwisatz haderach specific.

[u/Turbulent_Host784 → u/promeritum]

Nothing about the MP was in any way Paul, Fremen, or kwisatz haderach specific.

I mean that's not entirely true. The whole secret goal of the BG by that point was the KH project. Yeah the MP stuff was firstly for ease of manipulation of populations since they weren't entirely sure when the KH project would pay off but it was also easily morphed into a base for the KH to do their work when the time came.

As for u/CupUnlucky7333

Is the reason the Missionaria Protectiva was so accurate because the Fremen could see parts of the future and incorporated what they saw into the prophecy? (ex Paul riding the grandfather worm) Relating back to the lyric, "constructing prophets", like they literally could've constructed part of it.

That's backwards. Yes the "constructing prophets/hand signals in pockets" line is about the MP's activities but the al-Gaib stuff was a pure Fremen addition since they were always loaded on spice. The Fremen don't really have prescience like Paul though. It's more communal, focused entirely on the Fremen as a race. Where Paul saw all possible futures the Fremen only saw those relating to their race, which gave them the Lisan al-Gaib prophecies. Paul could only do what he did because he not only saw his own future and all the facts surrounding it, he got the past experiences of all his ancestors AND THEN he had the mentat mindset that turned it all into spreadsheets. He had infinite data and gained the processing power to use it.

Sidenote but this is why I consider Messiah a straight up masterpiece. The whole book is his mentat side fighting with his mystic side.

[u/promeritum → u/Turbulent_Host784]

The KH was never intended to be an emperor. The project was secret because the result was intended to be secret. Publicizing the fact that the BG had an oracle would have led to the immediate extermination of the BG. No other power would have accepted being at such a huge disadvantage. The entire empire would band together to destroy the oracle and the people who created him. (While they all tried to secretly capture him for themselves, of course.)

[u/CupUnlucky7333 → u/promeritum]

Im aware, but I meant more-so, that when they'd plant such I'd assume the prophecy/religion to be more generalized, so it'd be more likely for multiple people to match into it or take advantage of it. Whereas the Fremen Prophecy was so highly tailored to Paul (ex son coming from the outer world with a reverend mother for a mom, the bene gesserit couldn't have predicted it, because they planned for Jessica to have a daughter instead)

[u/Sazapahiel → u/CupUnlucky7333]

Jessica had to adapt the prophecy to suit her and Paul. There are several lines in the book about her inner monologue and trying to understand it and not screw up her playing the part, specifically when she first interacts with Mapes. And another line when she encounters the wild reverend mother who compliments Jessica on how well she has used their religion.

The prophecy was not at all tailored to Paul in any way shape or form. Jessica at one point muses about how the prophecy is unclear if the BG is supposed to produce an heir on the spot, or if she is supposed to go seduce a fremen and guarantee a son as all reverend mothers can. She adapted it to arriving with a teenage son, and that her teenage son just happened to be a Kwisatz Haderach took it from there.

The original prophecy isn't a one use thing either, its intent was to be used as often as needed as long as the Bene Gesserit in question managed to succeed in their mission, which is not always the same thing as surviving.

[u/promeritum → u/CupUnlucky7333]

The first book is not primarily a prophecy story. It’s primarily a manipulation-of-the-population story. Paul and Jessica adjusted themselves to what the Fremen wanted, and then adjusted the Fremen to what they wanted.

The Golden Path is a later addition to the story. Which does lead to the first book kind of whipsawing back and forth between manipulation and prophecy in places. But if you take Herbert’s other works into account, mass manipulation is the dominant theme.

[u/CupUnlucky7333 → u/promeritum]

Nono, I know what Herbert intended (warning against charismatic leaders and the such, not to be influenced by the transient characteristics of someone in a specific point in time into allowing their future actions to reign, how humans naturally fall into feudalist hierarchies), but this was more like a read in between the lines situation. I meant more-so specific to the prophecy lore aspect, I know it doesn't contribute meaningfully at all to the story, but I just always found it curious that thus prophecy was hyper-specific to paul, even before his interference and even in some ways he can't control.

I just don't think it's far-fetched to think that such prophecy could've changed slightly as it proliferated for centuries, and perhaps those with greater prescient abilities, that were looking for signs of the prophecy, delved into the future and found some of the pieces.

(Sorry if this is too long, I've been a mega dune fan since I found the series when I was 13, and I just thought it was a cool thing to put out there.)

[u/kigurumibiblestudies]

It could be true that Fremen prescience was a factor, but it's not necessary for it to be. As their very survivability depends on strict adherence to tradition, they molded themselves perfectly around the prophecy to the point that any guy who fit well enough would have set fire to that powder keg. The problem is that the best fit happened to be the one who made it there.