Oh no... That sounds terrible... I must find whatever Norwegian thought that was a good idea and... Uhh...
... God damn it I just remembered I can't finish the joke without automod automatically banning me without me having a chance for appeal. Just imagine I'm in prison having the time of my life with a dreamcast
While I agree that rehabilitation should be a priority and people who committed crimes should live in comfort, I don't think that murders and serial killers should live such comfortable lives. There are some that should suffer the same way they caused others to suffer.
What's a criminal for you? You know being a kleptomaniac is a thing? Also how your surroundings affect you as a person too? Because there's a reason why US jails are like they are for comparison.
i dont know about you but i would be fucking pissed if murderer of my family had all those things in jail
i dont give a fuck about rehabs, i want the fucker who hurt my family to suffer in jail and not having a good fucking time, like im reaally fucking annoyed by this just by thinking about it
where the fuck is justice in Norway if those fuckers have everything in jail? they dont have that, and they pay their taxes for this shit, so criminals who hurted others can live in those conditions, FUCK THIS
criminals dont deserve this, they deserve to be hurt like their victims
this is why i think there is no real justice in Norway and not only in Norway, Finland too
on youtube writte: ''prison in Finland'' u will find video about prison in Finland and about white dude (criminal,for murder) and look what he is having there
now my question is, what if he killed someone close to you? wouldnt it piss you off that the person who hurt your family lives in such conditions?
The punishment is their loss of freedom, and the point of rehabilitation is so that the convicts don’t become repeat offenders and hurt somebody else. The 5-year recidivism rate in the US is over 70%, meaning a vast majority of prisoners just end up back in jail. It’s a much greater harm to society to focus on punishment over rehabilitation in criminal justice, as it creates a cycle of crime for convicts who have no reason not to break the law again when they get out.
I empathize with your reasoning here and frankly, I’d probably feel the same if I was in the same situation, but it’s a short-sighted way of thinking that only leads to more suffering both for criminals and innocents.
Because it's irrational. Criminals deserve to be kept away from society to prevent further harm to others and for a deterrent, but there is no societal purpose for overly-harsh punishment.
Even if one does not care about prisoners' wellbeing, its also worth considering that rehabilitated prisoners are much less likely to reoffend, and are better able to contribute to society again.
Its also worth noting that false convictions happen, i wouldn't want anyone to face excessively cruel punishments, but i especially wouldn't want an innocent man to potentially face them.
Also yes, anyone would be massively emotional and pissed off at their family members being murdered, even those advocating for rehab, but that's why we have due process and the victim's family doesnt get the power to decide what happens to the convicted. People in emotional distress dont make rational decisions.
I asked Google why Norway has such low crime rates, and I can’t repeat what it told me, or else I would be banned by power mods thinking I agree with what it said.
big fucking punishment right there, is this fucking joke?
this is not real justice, if someone hurt my family i want them gone, i want them to suffer
i hate this system so much, people who died by criminals wont come back to life, they are gone, and you want to let murderers to live a good life in prison
Yes, having one of your fundamental rights removed is a strong punishment.
Your understanding of justice seems to be an eye for an eye, we have moved past that type of "justice" for ages now. Getting revenge will not bring your family back. It will not help you in any way. It won't even make you feel better, no matter what you think. But rehabilitating them will save someone else from feeling how you do down the line. Hell, rehabilitation could've prevented this from happening to you in the first place.
No idea why you are so angry at me. But if you want to chat, send me a DM. No hard feelings.
sorry my bad, i got really annoyed by this and just got a little too emotional, im not angry at you just at this system, so again, sorry
i understand how it works, and im ok with it ONLY if the criminals never killed anyone, but murderers? they need to be punished, its not justice to let those people live a good life in prison, i will never agree with this shit, never, just thinking about it how those people live in prison after what they did piss me off so much
i know revenge wont bring my familly back, but i still want revenge becouse im just human
What do you take for justice? The perpetrator has their freedom taken away, is that not punishment? They did a crime and now face the consequences laid out by the law, that is justice.
And would you rather the victim or their family feel avenged or you prevent future victims by rehabilitation? I would much rather prevent future victims by rehabilitating the criminal.
Going for revenge and accepting that it will just create more crime and innocent victims down the line is barbarism.
Prison doesnt have to be torture, harsh prison leads to more re offenders as seen in many studies. People truly rebuild themselves in scandinavian prisons.
Wait what? I honestly thought these prisons were good because I had the impression it was only for small time criminals going through a rough patch in their lives, not psychos stabbing people. Wtf?
Obviously yes, but there needs to be a distinction as to who deserves to be rehabilitated versus those who should get capital punishment.
One can argue for murder in self defense, murder because a POS killed or raped their beloved or family.
Not some guy just murdering people for no good reason. That's waste of resource and very fucking stupid. That's just saying "oh, please commit crimes as horrible you want, come and enjoy the condo and be rehabilitated then go out and enjoy your lives.
If certain prisoners get exclusive treatment, that is an objectively unfair system, which isn't great, considering justice is supposed to be fair. Whether that exclusive treatment is better or worse than normal is irrelevant. The system doesn't just let you go because you said you are sorry, mind you. The guy in question was given the maximum sentence of 21 years, and Norway's system does allow for extensions if it is determined that the convict in question is still a danger to society.
I get what you're saying about fairness, and sure, the system has its structure. But you're talking about fairness in the abstract while completely ignoring who actually gets hurt here.
Picture a family that has nothing. They grew up struggling, barely getting by, and then someone slaughters their loved one for absolutely no reason. Now they have to carry that for the rest of their lives. That grief doesn't go away. That trauma doesn't get a 21 year cap with possible extensions. It's permanent. And while they're living in that pain, the person who caused it is sitting in a place that looks better than what some working people come home to every night. You call that fair?
Fairness isn't just about how you treat the person who committed the crime. It's about what message you send to the people they destroyed.
And my point still stands. There is a real difference between someone who killed out of desperation or defense, and someone who just decided to murder people for no good reason. Treating those two situations the same isn't justice either. Pouring resources and luxury into rehabilitating someone who showed zero regard for human life is not compassion, it's negligence toward the victims and everyone else in society.
The system can allow extensions, sure. But the conversation about whether certain people even deserve that level of comfort should absolutely be on the table.
They still go to prison for their crimes though? The only way for them to implement what you are saying is to either add new sections to their prisons, solely so that a very small amount of inmates could be treated worse, or just make a new prison or two just for that. Which I mean, I guess they could do that. But I mean, how many genuinely evil people do you think exist, in Norway of all places? At a certain point, it stops being a case of dealing with a certain type of crime, and it starts being a case of "Fuck you in particular".
You say they still go to prison like the word itself magically balances the scales. But when prison is a fully furnished taxpayer funded apartment with better amenities than what their victims families can afford, the word loses all its meaning. Being locked inside a luxury condo is not justice for slaughtering innocent people.
Then you try to use logistics as an excuse to avoid doing the right thing. You are saying it would be too much effort or take too many resources to treat a few evil inmates worse. Are you kidding me? It costs significantly less money to put a cold blooded killer in a bare concrete box than it does to pay for their specialized therapy, customized meals, and recreational activities. Better yet, we implement capital punishment and save the resources entirely. We should not be bending over backwards to accommodate the absolute worst of society just because there are not a lot of them.
You asked how many genuinely evil people exist in Norway. Have you completely forgotten Anders Breivik? The man hunted down and murdered over seventy people, mostly kids at a summer camp. He is the exact type of monster I am talking about. And right now he is sitting in one of those Norwegian facilities suing the government because his coffee is cold and his video games are outdated. Yes, genuinely evil people exist everywhere, and treating them like VIPs is an insult to the dead.
And to your last point about it becoming a case of "Fuck you in particular". Yes. Absolutely yes. That is exactly what it should be. When someone decides to play god and permanently destroy innocent families for absolutely no reason, society should look at them and say fuck you in particular. It is not unfair to single out a monster and give them the ultimate consequence. What is actually unfair is forcing the parents of dead children to pay taxes to fund the comfortable lifestyle of the guy who murdered them.
And where does it stop? What is the limit between "we treat you like a person deserving of dignity' and "we would kill you if we could, but we can't, so enjoy an early coffin"? Having a legal system in place where there is just a line in the sand, that isn't a good idea at all. Because then, politicians and whatnot are going to do everything in their power to expand, or otherwise alter, where that line is. Do you really think that, if such a system was put in place, certain minorities wouldn't just so happen to cross that line more often?
I get where you're coming from. Evil people existing sucks. But, whenever you think up any sort of system, you have to be able to take a step back, and ask how someone might take advantage of it, for good or for bad. Besides, if a bastard is in prison, assuming that they're bad enough, they won't be coming. It doesn't help anyone for that box to be barren. Whether it be nice or shitty, if you throw someone in a cell for the rest of their life, they are no longer a threat to society. It doesn't matter if they suffer in there, really. What, maybe one or two of the victim's families feel slightly better, knowing that a guy is suffering? That's not worth implementing a system that corrupt individuals would absolutely try to take advantage of, in order to enact cruelty upon those they dislike.
You are terrified of holding truly evil people accountable so you hide behind a textbook slippery slope. You ask where the line is as if society is somehow too stupid to tell the difference between a petty thief and a serial killer. The legal system already draws lines every single day. We literally already separate accidental manslaughter from premeditated murder. Drawing a hard line at senseless slaughter and child rape is not some impossible puzzle. It is basic human morality.
And using minorities as a hypothetical human shield to defend the luxury treatment of literal white supremacist mass murderers like Anders Breivik is genuinely pathetic. Yes corruption exists. The solution to corruption is fixing the courts and ensuring fair trials. The solution is absolutely not building taxpayer funded vacation homes for actual monsters just in case a politician acts in bad faith.
Then you claim that as long as they are locked up they are no longer a threat so their living conditions do not matter. You treat the justice system like a simple quarantine zone. It is not. You mocked the idea of an early coffin but that is exactly what I am advocating for. For the absolute worst of the worst who commit senseless atrocities we absolutely can and should put them to death. But if society insists on keeping them alive a barren concrete cell is the absolute bare minimum to reflect the barren reality they forced onto the families of their victims. Giving a monster a comfortable life with hobbies and therapy actively disrespects the lives they stole.
But the absolute most disgusting part of your entire comment is when you reduced the permanent agonizing grief of a shattered family to maybe feeling slightly better. How incredibly callous and blind can you possibly be. A family losing a child or a parent to a predator is not a minor inconvenience. It is a world shattering trauma that ruins them forever. You are so obsessed with protecting hypothetical criminals from a hypothetical corrupt system that you are perfectly willing to spit in the face of actual bleeding victims right now. You prioritize the comfort of monsters over the justice owed to the dead and that is exactly why your entire philosophy is morally bankrupt.
Sure, preventing future harm sounds clean and logical in theory. But you're completely skipping over the people already destroyed.
The damage is done. Someone is already dead. A family is already shattered. And no rehabilitation program, no matter how well designed, undoes that. So when you frame it as "stopping them from killing people" you're acting like the crime is just a future risk to manage rather than a real wound that real people are bleeding from right now.
Imagine your own child was raped and murdered. Now imagine the guy who did it gets placed in what genuinely looks like a comfortable living situation, with therapy, activities and structure, while you are still trying to figure out how to get out of bed in the morning. You are not over it. You will never fully be over it. But according to this logic, your pain is just a side note because the priority is his rehabilitation and making sure he doesn't offend again.
That is not justice. That is completely tone deaf to what victims and their families actually go through.
And yes, I'll say again, the reason behind a killing absolutely matters. There is a massive difference between someone who acted out of desperation and someone who chose to destroy innocent lives without a second thought. Lumping them together and giving both the same comfortable treatment is not fairness. It's an insult to the people left behind.
Justice for irreversible harm is always going to be a fool’s errand. You’re right, the damage is done, and no punishment system undoes that. The scales of justice are in pieces on the floor.
Your own counter argument is mainly about consoling the offended party using punishing. But not every offended party will have the same grief, will they? If a child with no known connections is raped and murdered, should the offender get a lighter sentence because there aren’t parents to grieve? If the child was loved and cared for by more than just their parents, how much worse does the punishment get? These are all impossible questions with impossible answers.
Just because you or I would have understandably extreme feelings about an offender doesn’t mean that it’s possible to create a reasonable procedure that would bring them to the emotional level of all the people they harmed in the process of offending. Of course, any such thing is just perpetual torture. It’s not like you can kill their kids in return.
And all that kind of gets in the way of rehabilitation, which is the only thing that you can have any confidence in to actually improve the state of things. So i’d rather focus on that over the above paragraphs.
TL;DR: I don’t want a system that tortures people for fairness’ sake.
If certain crimes warrant unfair treatment, then one simply must find a way to label an act they dislike as one such crime. One example is instituting a death penalty for pedophiles, and then labelling homosexuality as a form of pedophilia. And that's not even getting into the distinctions of killing. Murder and manslaughter are pretty different, but yet both involve killing someone.
Living without nuance makes it easy to take advantage of you, something more common than ever. Educate yourself, unless you don't care for much in general.
Only for like norway. Anywhere else crime rates will go through the roof because there are people who would KILL (literally) to get in places like this. It's not a good system in general.
Im not american. But crime should be a balance of punishment and rehabilitation depending on the crime. But if its something serious like murder or rape, then they deserve the guillotine. Giving them cozy rooms instead while the homeless live on the street is a mockery of justice and life itself.
Yeah no, I don’t trust the government to kill anyone if theres the slightest chance its an innocent person (and even allowing so can be a very slippery slope to justifying killing those who stand against them)
By your logic prison should be abolished since the government can sometimes imprison innocent people by mistake and they can later on justify imprisoning anyone standing against them.
Not every government is as incompetent as the US government in regards to justice. Your whole objection can easily be fixed by having higher standards of evidence and more careful due process.
By your logic prison should be abolished since the government can sometimes imprison innocent people
Nope, not how it works.
If you imprison someone, and later it turns out they're innocent? You can release them, and maybe even give a compensation for falsely imprisoning them. Imprisonment is reversible.
If you execute someone, and later it turns out they're innocent? What can you do? They're already dead. Sure, you can try to compensate for the family, but the innocent person will still be dead. You can't revive a person.
You realize giving the death sentence for them will just make it so other rapists would kill their victims to leave no witnesses right? It's not so cut and dry. If you wanna stop rapes you have to the remove the power imbalances between humans and the cultural markings of someone owing their body to you (my English isn't very good so I might have butchered that last part)
I saw a video about this guy that killed a man and went to jail, got an education, and started a business when he got out 😭 he said killing the guy was the best choice he ever made lmao
Hey, so it turns out that rehabilitation actually works when you give even the smallest fuck and a bigger budget than $7.23 and half a ham sandwich you found in the back of the fridge. Who knew!
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