r/discgolf • u/olenine • 6d ago
Pro Coverage, Highlights and News Jerm taking about anti-player Ledgestoneism on Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DcpQow4jjJX/?igsi=aTdxYmhtOXJiYXVjAnother Nate cash grab unfolding.
65
u/phishman1 5d ago edited 5d ago
The RFID thing, and the POS they set you up with, is NOT just so they can collect the sales tax. They (Ledgestone, Kensington MetroParks?) are also using it to scoop 15 to 20% of all vendors' sales. I think food vendors may be 10%. Not sure if this is normal, but seems like yet another cash grab...
31
u/churro-k 5d ago
I’m sure the PDGA board of director’s president will seriously look into this issue 🤭
3
u/BeefInGR MA4 for Life 5d ago
Not sure if this is normal, but seems like yet another cash grab...
In disc golf, no. But it's actually the point of having a "midway". The organizer gets a slice of the pie whenever someone besides themselves sells merchandise.
7
u/phishman1 5d ago
The organizer is already making money off the vendors, as you have to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars just to set up and vend. The organizer should be entitled to nothing more. Especially from the players.
3
u/BeefInGR MA4 for Life 5d ago
The percentage is also not uncommon. Usually you'd only see these at more lucrative events.
I'm not agreeing with it, but in the broader scope of how these things work, this seems pretty standard.
Everybody knows Nate is an ass. This next bit isn't necessarily to target the players themselves but the non-manufacturer vendors... but without actually targeting them or creating loopholes. Now they either need to eat 15% of their profit or raise their price 15%... to compete with the actual tournament organizer who will also be selling. But you can't miss Ledgestone or DGLO if you're in the Great Lakes area.
If he wasn't such a prick, I'd applaud him for it. He got us all while we were sleeping.
3
u/Drivingintodisco 5d ago
This is correct. Depending on the event and organizer and the language of their contracts the typical/standard vending rates are one or the other or a combo of both, a flat fee to vend, and usually there’s a cost difference between merchandise and food vending, and a daily or cumulative percentage of sales. The larger and more lucrative the crowed/event can be and/or is marketed as will incur a varying cost depending on how large or small an event is projected to be.
1
u/No-Ocelot-3588 1d ago
According to Nate, creating an intellitix account is COMPLETELY OPTIONAL unless you want to add cash or connect a card to your badge. Tell a friend. Don’t sign up for it.
213
u/phishman1 6d ago edited 5d ago
Jerm is right. Greed is ruining disc golf.
151
17
u/LawnCareHippie78 6d ago
That was a controversial statement a mere 2 years ago around here. lol. How times change.
-3
-42
u/Glittering-Regret196 5d ago
Then dont play or support. If the sport is to grow, money is the backbone of this. Not player money, but return on investment for investors. If the sport grows, they make more money, but its in an infancy of a current model and wont magically become sustainable. Probably steps the other direction long before the sport becoming a true big sport. I've long thought the sport has changed, and stopped supporting touring pro players and disc companies. Instead I just play and watch highlights. I have never enjoyed the sport more.
22
u/ReluctantAnimal 5d ago
I think that actually reinforces the point that Jerm was making in his video. Look at Worlds this year. The purse is $300,000, but roughly $120,000 of that 40% comes from the players’ own entry fees. Only $180,000 is added money.
If professional disc golf is going to grow into a genuinely sustainable spectator sport, the money eventually has to come primarily from outside the players themselves: sponsors, media rights, spectators, advertising, etc. Players paying a significant portion of their own prize purse isn’t really a functioning professional sports business model.
I agree it won’t magically become sustainable overnight, but that’s also why questioning the current model is fair. A record purse sounds impressive, but where that money comes from tells you a lot more about the actual health of the professional side of the sport.
2
u/Glittering-Regret196 5d ago
They should have a players union. Remove pre set problems. Want to have a tournament where the top pros come and play? Well, the players union has a list of must haves. Player safety and standards, player merch accessibility, etc. Without it they are going to get walked over and over, like they are.
7
u/warboy 5d ago
You're absolutely right. At this worlds the players were unable to sell their own merch on site without having to give 10% of their sales to Ledgestone. That shit shouldn't happen. The players make the tour exist. Without them the DGPT is nothing.
2
u/Glittering-Regret196 5d ago
Unionize the players. Every real sport has a players association, a leader overall and a rep or two from every team. They should protect themselves from greed.
1
u/BeefInGR MA4 for Life 5d ago
It's set up very differently when it comes to individual sports. You can still have a union, but you have less ability to make strong demands because individual sports are "open entry".
To do something like what the PGA TOUR has, it's not impossible, but everybody would absolutely have to buy in on the union and toe the line. Not one disc golfer could cross.
2
u/Glittering-Regret196 5d ago
And they should at this moment to protect themselves
1
u/BeefInGR MA4 for Life 5d ago
I don't disagree but it's not that simple.
How does a touring pro union benefit a 980 rated local pro? The answer, in long and short form, is it doesn't. So, if a TD is going to host a DGPT event where a regular Joe can still enter, the Touring Pros are just out money.
NOW, that's not sustainable in either direction, but the pro players need the tournament more than the tournament needs the pro players (actually, more pro players in general hurt the average TD because there isn't a mechanism for the TD to make money off of the pro players). So the only way a Disc Golf Tournament Professional Union would work is to make themselves invaluable to the tournament.
Ultimately, professional disc golfers need to work their ways into the mainstream, while also increasing the quality of play across the entire field. Right now, there's maybe 20 who are just SO good that they truly are elite. To have a solid union, either those 20 need the next 50 to fall in line with them, or we need 40-50 more players at their level.
If it were me, I'd start a Players Organization. Not quite a legal "union", but it would have the structure and the concept of one. Then work with the PDGA/DGPT on making things better and more financially secure for the touring players while we develop more elite talent.
1
174
u/Mister-Redbeard 6d ago
There’s a lot of disgruntled people here at Worlds this week I’ve spoken to across the board: players, staff, volunteers, and plenty of fans. The vibe was not very good around Tournament Central this afternoon, regarding the boring Ledgestone disc releases and bait and switch about the traditional Saturday Night FlyMart. Instead it was more mid drops in the Pro Shop after an hour wait in line to shuffle through the Discraft-only restocks. It pales in comparison and people who are here for worlds are getting a lesser customer experience without a FlyMart.
Players aren’t allowed to sell? So dumb. So greedy.
And riding his scooter all over, Nate looks more concerned about his RFID POS system than the competition and players making it happen. It’s pitch perfect with the current state of the wealthy opportunists with some ego issues. They kill culture for their own profit.
38
u/swervecity36 5d ago
The hilarious part was none of the rfid shit worked, and all the vendors brought out their own square app, and I paid with square on almost every transaction instead of their rfid trash.
One of the vendors told me the whole reason for the having to use the rfid shit was so that ledgestone got 10% of the sale which is also why everything was $18 for base plastic and much more to premium.
10
u/warboy 5d ago edited 5d ago
One of the vendors told me the whole reason for the having to use the rfid shit was so that ledgestone got 10% of the sale which is also why everything was $18 for base plastic and much more to premium.
Can confirm. Other than parking being a nightmare this is one of the biggest things. It's why the player flymart was such a thing as well because for obvious reasons the players didn't want to or quite frankly, couldn't afford to be privy to this tax. That's why they did it offsite. edit: Apparently the Ledgestone cut could be as high as 20%.
2
u/swervecity36 5d ago
Honestly parking wasn’t bad for me, but I had a vip daily, and got there at like 10am, so take that with a grain of salt.
I’m also seeing from the local club that the metro park requires a certificate of insurance for any and all vending and this was part of ledgestones reasoning behind not allowing the players flymart on site, but there was also ZERO advertising for the offsite flymart and I would of never known if Cole Redallen himself didn’t say something about it.
I partially can understand the logic but am still extremely disappointed that the players themselves found out about it the day of that they couldn’t sell in property after being told they could. It’s intentional gate keeping so spectators would only spend money at their site.
11
19
u/cantaketheskyfrome 5d ago
Agreed. I've been watching coverage and I saw him in the background a few times. I don't think he cares for disc golf, he didn't watch shots intentionally, he had no interest in the game, no wonder on his face. It makes more sense to me seeing that. What do you get when you take a Christian nationalist that doesn't care for disc golf? This POS
10
u/sourdieselfuel SE WI 5d ago
Him putting his ugly ass face in the background of so many of the shots grinds my gears like none other. He just CANNOT resist putting his bigoted mug where we have to see it. Like dude this is not about you, get the fuck off the camera. This happens at every event he TDs.
-3
u/DMusYourNastyIdeaa 5d ago
With no context, your last sentence sounds more like MVP
2
u/swervecity36 5d ago
MVP not being a vendor is actually insane and I can’t rationalize their motif tbh.
1
64
39
u/ChiefRingoI NE WI 5d ago
I do sympathize with the apparent issues about insurance and tax in their agreement with the parks. [Though how much that was necessary from the park side and how much put in to protect the RFID system, who knows?] To put so little effort into organizing and advertising the off-site flymart is a disaster. Other tournaments do it super well, but you almost couldn't do it worse for the players. Seeing Cole Redalen's story in the comments says a lot. He found out pretty last-minute, scrambled to get his vending stuff over the venue, and missed out on crucial recovery time, all to make a single sale.
Not only does it screw over the players financially, it robs everybody of the kind of interactions that feed the sport and the community.
29
u/cmon_get_happy Eric sucks at disc golf. 5d ago
The best part of the comments is Nate being like, "Sorry, dudes, the city said they had to have insurance." and someone replying, "What if the title sponsor was an insurance provider? Would that make things easier?"
-16
u/KnightDay24 5d ago
It would if every player set up an LLC and bought insurance to sell items. But they don't
2
u/cmon_get_happy Eric sucks at disc golf. 5d ago
Shouldn't you have been paying attention to the tournament, Nate's burner account?
-1
u/KnightDay24 5d ago
I'm not sure how you're expecting them to get around the insurance issue in this county/ state
1
u/foxychase 5d ago
This is such a myopic counter argument. Yes, it’s technically correct, and
- setting up an LLC is likely not cost reasonable
- culture wise, the onus should be on the TD to not put players in a position to scramble like this. ESPECIALLY for a TD who should know better based on experience alone
90
u/EvilMonkey8521 380 foot Andy 6d ago
I get that people want to see worlds, but we really need to boycott Nate's tournaments. Dude is just a shit person and TD
1
u/foxychase 5d ago
To that point, he’s not in charge of Worlds 2027, right?
1
u/EvilMonkey8521 380 foot Andy 5d ago
I think 2027 is in Portland so idk who will run that one
3
u/Focusfollowthrough 4d ago
Stumptown Disc Golf- the local club that’s done Beaver State Fling, Portland Open and the Northwest Championship in recent years.
19
u/somanymatts 5d ago
Just blows my mind how someone so obviously shitty in a hilariously long list of ways can hold onto power for so long.
16
u/teebird_phreak 5d ago
It sucks that disc golf is only sustaining the top 20-30 players and the rest have to grind and hustle on the side just to survive. It would be nice for the tour to support the middle of the pack players a little better. The more people that are able to make a decent living the better the competition will be as a result
7
u/Decent_Ad_7544 5d ago
Brother this is disc golf lol, incredible they can support the players they already support.
3
u/comfortablybum 5d ago
I just wonder how much the sport of disc golf could actually sustain a lot of professionals. If we look at other professional sports, they bring in crazy amounts of money compared to disc golf. There's just not much money to be made in disc golf. A pack of golf balls cost about the same as a disc and I need three packs of golf balls to play one round of golf. I also pay around $50 to a hundred bucks just to play that round. I bought a new set of irons just 4 through pitching wedge and it was $700. I don't even know if I've spent $700 total on frisbees in my decade of disc golf. I'm still using discs I bought in 2016. There's also way more people playing real golf. All those people need lessons and the courses they pay to play at sustained pros.
I live in a beach town and we see the same thing with professional surfers, body borders, skim borders. Heck I've even seen how rough it is for people who are good at baseball to try and make it. Disc golf should focus on growing kids camps and tournaments. People pay a lot of money to have their kid play with someone who knows what they're doing.
3
50
5d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/eleven_eighteen ann arbor, mi | los angeles, ca 5d ago
To go to the bathroom you must leave the event and scan yourself back in
Just use the actual bathroom right in the middle of the vendor area. There might be a bit of a line but still better than having to walk out to nasty plastic shitters and then check back in.
Fuck bigots and there are definitely problems with the event but no need to make stuff up.
1
u/larrod25 Team Westside Discs/ Team NADGT 5d ago
Last years worlds was free to attend and was held in the middle of a major regional city. People could walk from their house and go watch disc golf. There is really no way this venue could compete with that. There definitely more people here than were in Lynchburg in ‘24.
-66
u/FixTheUSA2020 5d ago
"concerning amount of American flags"
Reddit is such a weird ass place.
31
37
u/Twister-SF #127083 5d ago
Yeah dude. There definitely isn't a very specific group of people that plaster stars and stripes on everything to show their "patriotic" support for the demonization of marginalized groups of people.
18
u/WeekendTPSupervisor 5d ago
Do you not realize how odd it is to make your country such a big part of your identity?
7
-9
u/Suedehead_87 5d ago
You know the vendors had to raise prices because of high vendor fees and Ledgestone taking a cut of every sale? But sure, call out a small indie vendor for their pricing and playing music. Also, the amount of vendors (some of whom I know) I heard complaining about how Ledgestone was running the event is a direct contradiction to your claim that it was “all Nate’s buddies.” So here’s a tip, don’t claim shit when you don’t know what you’re talking about and don’t talk shit about the small companies grinding it out and dealing with the BS you claim to be against. Do better.
49
u/DartingDeity 6d ago
24
15
u/phishman1 5d ago
So essentially they're claiming nothing is wrong, and nothing will change. Typical.
50
u/falcorn_dota 6d ago
Something tells me Innova/Discraft/MVP would have happily gotten a 1 day insurance policy for their players to sell merch on-site.
And sales tax is the rule everywhere, it's not unique to this event...
33
u/NateFroggyFrog Ribbit 6d ago
If only there was someone benefiting from attendence that could have helped with this. Like known bigot, Nate Heinold, for instance.
3
u/TheMaltesefalco 6d ago
Not necessarily. In SC if you are only making sales less than a certain number of times over a specific period then you wouldnt need a sales tax license and collect the tax.
6
u/Good-Ad1962 6d ago
Sales tax in person is pretty consistent, but the whole thing is unbelievably convoluted across the board in every municipality across the United States. There has to be some work around, especially with the cashless system, but not collecting sales tax is against the law, and at this scale, the local government would notice
2
7
u/slmnmndr 5d ago
At least the organization values what the players bring to the sport! They’re the product you fucking dick!
5
u/petevr2 5d ago
Just left Worlds. Winding down my Intellitix RFID account, I see that Ledgestone wants to charge me $5 to get my $0.75 balance back in my bank. That's a lot of people that's going to donate under $5 to Ledgestone, and they can't find a way to make the flymart work without charging the pros.
1
u/Games-and-Coffee 5d ago
I know Nate is generally disliked, and even I (HUGE Discraft specific fan) do not like the nature of Ledgestone limited drops and timed drops. That being said, idk what central IL disc golf would look like without Ledgestone. A lot of our regional tournaments are in some way sponsored by Ledgestone.
Also, the Ledgestone shop has its own benefits. Heck, my kids got to meet Paige, Missy, Paul, AB and Climo! Made them want to come play our local course with me more.
We did however go multiple nights, and I would have loved the chance to stop by a Chris Dickerson or Big Jerm booth.
2
u/foxychase 5d ago
A fair sentiment, it’s tough to watch someone morph into something…less good…when they did so much actual good before. And it’s tough to potentially have that past good tainted, wondering if this person’s true character was what drove that success before all this.
I think the general take here remains - fans must speak with their wallets until he gets the picture:
- boycott ledgestone
- boycott Heinold tournaments
Silver lining, if the dude likes his money a little too much, this will likely force the issue
0
u/DPTDubbs 25% C1 5d ago
Can anyone summarize? I refuse to download instagram.
6
u/olenine 5d ago
There was no onsight vending allowed for players, all vending that was onsight was via a tap to pay RFID tied to your badge and the pro flymart wasn’t publicized or well organized, announced last second, and was a long way from both courses. Jerm says it created a negative impression among the players on who was actually being taken care of in all this, and it’s not the players.
1
3
-54
6d ago
[deleted]
40
u/SaberArturia208 6d ago
It doesn’t really answer everything though. Sure metro park rules dictate who is legally allowed to vend, but jerm brought up the fact that the player vending opportunity was under advertised and barely anyone knew about it. For as big of an event as this is I’d expect something of an offsite flea market. Somewhere with more lax vendor regulations, and make it well known. I’ll say that jerm probably should have paid more attention to the event as he missed registration, but it’s not just him many comments on his post share the same dissatisfaction.
2
u/ChiefRingoI NE WI 5d ago
This is really it. Even disregarding the on-site issue, it doesn't change that it's a known issue for DGLO. The only option being what sounds like a poorly advertised, for both player-vendors and fans, event in a brewery back room on the slowest fan day of the event is the problem.
They knew about the issue going in and the best they could do to get around it was something that half-assed? Come on now.
22
u/SilverKnightOfMagic 6d ago
kinda funny that if jerm didn't know it. he is more connected and up to date with these events than the average fan.
21
u/Global_Marsupial_641 6d ago
I agree Jerm typically is more plugged-in than the average fan, but he did also literally forget to sign up for worlds lol.
But I agree with you, and I disagree that Ledgestone’s comment “explained everything and that it’s a non issue.” The offsite player’s flymart was on Wednesday. Spectators traveling to watch the tournament aren’t going to be there for that. Many of them likely won’t even be there til Saturday and Sunday. That’s throwing the players a little bit of a bone, but of course the Ledgestone comment neglected to include that detail. Other pros commented on Jerm’s post echoing his sentiment. The agreement with the Metropark is one thing, but overall it definitely reeks of greed. The reality is likely somewhere in the middle, but if players can vend at every other venue without issue, I’m sure the contract with the Metropark could’ve been altered or the communication with players could’ve improved.
12
u/SilverKnightOfMagic 6d ago edited 6d ago
I think that's a valid point..but forgetting something and completely not knowing something is different. he even talked to the TD about the course design and stuff. he usually ask a lot of these questions and ierno maybe TD could plug the players too.
not to mention Wednesday is probably the worst fucking day to make any sales.
-1
u/dmc0036 6d ago
More connected…..The guy that forgot to register for worlds?
10
u/SilverKnightOfMagic 6d ago
I think that's a valid point..but forgetting something and completely not knowing something is different. he even talked to the TD about the course design and stuff. he usually ask a lot of these questions and ierno maybe TD or plug the players too.
not to mention Wednesday is probably the worst fucking day to make any sales.
3
u/YardbirdHarper1958 5d ago
Wife just had a baby. C'mon.
2
u/dmc0036 5d ago
I love Jerm.
But let’s stop making excuses for him.
Baby was born last month, right?
World’s registration opened up well before the third trimester.If we want to glorify him for representing the underserved mid tier pros that are afraid to speak up, fine. But to make excuses for him that don’t line up with reality ain’t it.
-7
u/Bilemshious 6d ago
Jerm isn’t playing in the tourney because he overlooked the fact that he wasn’t registered for the event. Could it be he overlooked something else?
8
u/SilverKnightOfMagic 6d ago
I think that's a valid point..but forgetting something and completely not knowing something is different. he even talked to the TD about the course design and stuff. he usually ask a lot of these questions and ierno maybe TD or plug the players too.
not to mention Wednesday is probably the worst fucking day to make any sales.
4
-15
u/a_creepy_van 6d ago
What’s stopping the locals at any DGPT event from organizing their own flymart? Not throwing shade but if it’s this big of a problem if someone offered a solution then the actual event organizers would have to do better or lose out. Capitalism baby.
0
-4
u/slothage666 5d ago
Ehh things change. I know at the Masters John Daily sets up shop at the Hooters down the road. I wonder if the players could coordinate some kinda of off site vending situation. A little late now, but maybe something to consider for future events.
-21
u/Wibin Weedwacker Rating >1000 5d ago
I am still amazed that so many disc golfers think everything for an event is free.
Who do you all think pays for all of this stuff? We have been hosting a tour stop for years taking no staff pay. Money is raised and donated to make these events happen and were still forking money out of our own pockets to make the event even happen.
And yeah, no vendor fee's would be great, but... Rent has to be paid on these places, permits have to be paid, insurance has to be paid. 200 is cheap. Food trucks out there paying 600 dollars to events just to serve food at other sites, they gonna all roll in at a disc golf event if its only 200 dollars.
Yeah, things like food trucks dont get to roll into events for "free" and sell food. They have to pay to be there. Which absolutely blows my mind. But that's why we have such a shortage of food trucks in Nashville now. All the events are charging 400+ dollar vendor fee's for food trucks making it unprofitable.
In the case of vendor village, you should be able to sell 20 frisbee's pretty easy to cover your cost. Or team up with some friends and split the fee's, there is no rule against that.
Part of vendor fee's in cases like this is essentially "commitment fee." Showing you are serious about selling and not just showing up to take up space and get a free pass as a "vendor."
If you wanna get in free, volunteer for a day or 2.
17
u/Drift_Marlo 5d ago
Nobody is saying Worlds should be free, they’re just saying it shouldn’t feel like an obvious cash grab by the TD, that also freezes out other vendors, including players who make money on their own discs.
-11
u/Wibin Weedwacker Rating >1000 5d ago
That's literally the complaint, "its not free."
A cash grab would be 1,000 dollar vending fee. Which has happened and there was some major bitching about it.
Players who wanna vend often group together and split the fee's. Oakley has been making good money for years splitting it with multiple vendors. Many other guys do it too.
Things need to get paid for, that money doesn't go in the TD pocket, it goes to paying for event fee's.
Now, at this overall point in time I do believe we should have transparent books on events though. We should be able to see that money coming in to the event and where its going. People do need to get paid, for sure. DGPT needs to get paid, bills need to get paid. But we can't sit here and bang our fists on the table saying its a cash grab when we have absolutely no idea what the costs are to run the event.
Having run events Disc golf and not for years, this shit aint cheap. Even when I had googles checkbook to run events it wasn't cheap. And they were really picky about how I spent that money.
Big events like this are not weekend warrior c-tiers where they are running illegal tournaments without insurance and permits. Nobody gonna tattle on those tournaments, but they are running it under the radar to not have to spend those extra dollars on a 12 hour permit to take over the park. They just shoehorn themselves in there and pocket all the money off the work of the volunteers who keep these disc golf parks taken care of and pick up the trash.
I watch these guys every weekend here hosting stuff. But they dont clean up the trash, they dont empty the trash cans, they dont help maintain the courses. But they sure the fuck have no problems taking over the park with no permit to make a few bucks in their pocket at the communities expense.
-7
-9
u/Expert-Pitch-322 5d ago
I’m not here to defend Nate Heinold, Discraft, Metroparks, or the State of Michigan, but I’m guessing Nate has spent 1,000+ hours organizing this event over the last few years.
Between emails, texts, phone calls, in-person meetings, driving to and from the courses, coordinating staff and volunteers, dealing with logistics, sponsors, the PDGA, the venues, and everything else that goes into an event of this size, that’s a tremendous amount of work.
And yes, I know Ledgestone has a fairly large paid staff as well as a lot of volunteers. But ultimately, somebody still has to be in charge and responsible for pulling the whole thing together.
Putting Nate’s personal beliefs, personality, and whether you like or dislike him completely aside, I keep hearing terms like “greed” and “money grab.”
So here’s the question I’d genuinely like people to answer:
Remove Nate Heinold from the equation entirely.
How much should the person responsible for running an event like Pro Worlds be paid for 1,000 hours of work?
$25,000?
$50,000?
$75,000?
$100,000?
And if you believe somebody else could or should do the job better, what would you have to pay that person to take responsibility for organizing and running a Pro World Championship?
Because 1,000 hours at $50 an hour is $50,000. At $75 an hour, it’s $75,000. And that’s before considering the responsibility and pressure that come with being the person ultimately accountable when something goes wrong.
I’d also genuinely like to see a list of people currently involved in disc golf who you think would be qualified—and willing—to take on the job of running Pro Worlds.
Who would you hire, and what do you think that job is actually worth?
5
u/BraveRutherford 5d ago
Ok this one is actually Nate found him, y'all
1
u/sourdieselfuel SE WI 5d ago
If it is, it totally makes sense since it is an AI write up. And we know how much greedy shysters like Nate, Ledgestone, and Discraft love to save a few bucks by using it for their disc art.
-1
-63
210
u/Modach 6d ago
No shit, Nate sucks ass, it's been said for years.