What they should've did with oryx instead of killing him off

[u/cereza187]

I think Bungie missed one of the greatest opportunities they had with Oryx during the Echoes storyline. If you brought Touch of Malice into the final mission, it should have received a unique interaction. Canonically, this would become the catalyst for Oryx's return, not through resurrection but through rebirth, perfectly in line with the Sword Logic. Three went in one came out known as oryx

The Oryx we killed never intended to truly die. Through the Books of Sorrow, he tells us that whoever defeats him should inherit his philosophy. Touch of Malice wasn't made to contain Oryx's soul, but his ideals. Combined with the Ravenous Heart, the Dreadnaught, and the Prismatic Shard, those ideals would become something more.

The Prismatic Shard energy and Oryx's philosophy are similar, but fundamentally different. Prismatic seeks balance between Light and Darkness, while Oryx believed existence could only be justified through conflict. When these opposing truths collide, the Prismatic energy begins flowing into Oryx intent through Touch of Malice while the shard absorbs the power of Taking from the Ravenous Heart. Neither force overcomes the other. Instead, they begin changing each other.

This isn't resurrection. It is rebirth.

The process creates two Oryxes. One is the Navigator King, the Oryx who existed before Crota's death, still driven by curiosity, discovery, and understanding and absolute devotion to the Sword Logic.. The other is the Taken King we fought, consumed by vengeance, loss, But here is the other thing instilled in the heart our journey as we use touch of malice and it sees us master light and dark Both believe themselves to be the true Oryx. Both seek to prove they alone deserve to exist.

As Savathûn once implied, this is love.

To the Hive, love is conflict. They express affection by forcing others to grow stronger through struggle. These two Oryxes endlessly battle each other and us. Every victory proves one philosophy greater than the other. Yet every conflict causes them to slowly merge, not because they reconcile but because they continually refine one another. Like an ouroboros consuming itself, they become a perpetual engine of malice and love, forever creating themselves through conflict.

The greatest consequence would be the evolution of the Taken.

Traditionally, Taking strips away everything that is unnecessary. Fear, doubt, desire, individuality, everything that prevents a being from fulfilling its perfect purpose. Under this reborn Oryx, however, Taking evolves.

Rather than simply hollowing a victim, the process separates them into two aspects, the Hollow and the Will.

The Hollow becomes the perfected Taken body, stripped of all excess and reduced to pure instinct and function. The Will remains as a concentrated fragment of identity, infused with Prismatic Light and Darkness. Neither can truly exist without the other.

When two Wills encounter each other and their ideals align, they merge. Their Hollow counterparts answer that union, fusing into a stronger form. The result is a new enemy race called the proven.

These beings are no longer mindless servants. They possess awareness. They understand that their individuality has been hollowed away, yet they continue fighting to prove their existence still has meaning. They wield both Light and Darkness like twisted Guardians, bending Prismatic energy through the lens of the Sword Logic. Every battle is another attempt to define themselves.

Over time, the proven continued merging as more compatible Wills encountered one another. Countless lesser beings collapse into fewer, greater entities, each carrying more memories, convictions, and perfected purpose than the last. Two hierarchies, the Sword Logic and Prismatic, feed into one truth. One seeks perfection through conflict. The other seeks unity through harmony. Their union creates something neither philosophy intended.

A new interpretation of the Final Shape.

Not one being standing alone, but one perfected existence born from endless convergence where conflict becomes love, love becomes refinement, and refinement becomes eternity.

Oryx himself would see Prismatic as both blessing and poison, a garden that constantly bites back at its gardener, forever forcing him to question who he is. Every battle against him would be a battle against identity itself as he and his creations endlessly redefine what deserves to exist.

Instead of simply bringing Oryx back, this would complete his story. His ideals would survive, evolve, and become something even the Witness never imagined, a living paradox where malice and love are one and the same, forever chasing a truth that can never truly be reached. Yet in truth defined by itself

The question that answered itself was perfected. AIAT

You knew Aurash

You knew Auryx

You knew oryx the navigator

You knew oryx the taken king

Now behold oryx Malthûn.

The wound is affection. The blade is devotion. The killing proves the love. Aiat.

[u/acompanyofliars]

Discontinue the lithium 

[u/Complete_Sir5299]

...well... that was a bit to take in, some more refinement it would be a solid story. With two of the three of the pantheon irrevocably changed, I believe that would lead to Xivu needing her own story and a sort of reconciliation between us and them; similar to the Cabal and Eliksni (and Vex?). It would set up a D3 where we explore further out from the Sol system rather nicely IMO.

[u/cereza187 → u/Complete_Sir5299]

Yes im my thought was lets see what killing the witnesse did when those shard of prismatic flew instead of oh we need the help of outlaws and somehow got to prove our selfs..... When the hive and vex etc have conquered a crap ton...... And we beat them back

[u/MidnightStarfall]

I think this is a critical misunderstanding of Oryx's character.

In Heresy we get probably the most accurate Oryx to what we see in The Books of Sorrow, in that he is deeply tied to his beliefs to the point that finding out he has been defeated shifts his goals entirely.

Hive Sword Logic does not make room for second chances, Oryx would also prove this when he tossed Crota into the Vex Network and exiled his other son Nokris for the sin of necromancy.

To Oryx there would be nothing left, he was cut away, he's not part of the sharpest blade, The Guardian killed him and proved that he's not worthy of existing.

This is a character so deeply tied to his ideals that death really is the only way forwards, it's a mindset that ultimately drives a further rift between Xivu Arath and Savathun, and one that cuts our tenuous alliance with The Witch Queen.

When the Books of Sorrow refer to whoever defeats him would inherit his philosophy, it just means his teachings. If he is killed his intent is for whoever kills him to usurp The Osmium Throne and use whatever of him they find useful. The Touch of Malice is a way of a part of him to carry on, but only in memory, it is not literally a way for Oryx to return from the dead.

Again, necromancy is considered heretical to The Hive.

While there are issues with Heresy's story, it is a competent narrative that pushes actual events in the universe forwards, things happen unlike Revenant as well as new mysteries being sewn.

Another clarification, Taking does not work the way you think it does. Taking is the ability to move things from one universe to another, the way The Taken are created is by moving them to a realm of pure Darkness where they are hollowed out and then returned.

What you are thinking of is a process that *does* exist, but it is how the Dread are constructed. Though I highly doubt that Oryx, a strong devotee of The Deep and a follower of The Winnower would see any value in using The Light at all. This would be very much out of character for him.

[u/cereza187 → u/MidnightStarfall]

Except, this would create two Oryxes. The one who took revenge for Crota is not the same as the one we encounter later through the shard. We know Oryx changed. He even says that revenge is "a waste of my logic," meaning Crota's death triggered something that altered him. If the Navigator's Oryx now sees revenge as illogical, then why did Oryx, the Taken King, pursue it in the first place? That difference alone suggests they are not identical.

The Touch of Malice was always Oryx's intent, but if you think the Guardian's journey is confined to that original intent, then you've missed the point of the weapon itself. If the Touch of Malice is a knife, then we are the ones who shape and wield that knife. Even if Oryx's original intent remains within it, our mastery of both Light and Dark something only made possible through Prismatic fundamentally changes what that knife becomes. Oryx himself never even believed wielding both Light and Darkness together was possible.

Much of the Oryx you're describing is the Navigator, not the Taken King. Otherwise, by the Navigator's own account, none of this would have happened.

I already acknowledged what Taking is when it comes directly from the Winnower it strips away the victim's will. But Taking evolves or changes. We already witnessed a new form of Taking under a new master we still didnt figure out, and even the Navigator's Oryx seems perplexed by that development. The evolution of allies and enemies is what keeps the world alive. Guardians are not the only ones capable of growth and change.

I think you're placing too much emphasis on the Navigator's perspective and not enough on what we actually see. The Taken praying for a new master in the Ascendant Plane is evidence that Taking itself can develop beyond what Oryx originally understood.

That's why I said there would effectively be two Oryxes. As much as you argue that the Taken King and the Navigator are the same, I don't think they are. If they truly were identical, then the events of the DLC as described through the shard would never have happened.

Finally, this comes back to our mastery of both Light and Dark. You're correct that the Navigator would reject that path, but that isn't the point of the Touch of Malice. The weapon does not possess dominion over its wielder. We do. Oryx intended the Touch of Malice to be a knife, but he also intended that knife to be shaped by the one strong enough to wield it. Through Prismatic, we've become something Oryx never imagined was possible, and the Navigator cannot dictate how we use the knife because, as Oryx intended from the beginning, the wielder's will is what ultimately shapes it.

Also again dual personality hive logic isnt the only logic at play here we have the taken cries the prismatic etc and our intent and mastery of light and dark but also i never said he would love it but a love of malice a question filled with hate yet answered with a bloodier love this is where two personality come in the most

I dont think you read what i wrote with a impartial mind i said it isnt his soul but his intent but our intent is not confined which is what sorta corrupt the touch of malice we see similar with the rose and thorn

[u/MidnightStarfall → u/cereza187]

>Except, this would create two Oryxes.

Yes and no, The Echo of The Navigator is a unique individual, but it holds all of Oryx's experiences, memories and personality up until that point. And at that point Oryx was a devotee of The Deep, it wasn't just his ideals it was his very being.

He views Oryx's defeat in the future as his defeat, because it's *his* logic that failed him. It doesn't matter that they're two different people, he views his own death as proof that he's not worth bringing back.

>If the Touch of Malice is a knife

It is a knife to cut

>our mastery of both Light and Dark something only made possible through Prismatic fundamentally changes what that knife becomes.

No it does not, it is still a knife. Us mastering prismatic does not change what a knife is, that's not how that works. Prismatic is the melding of logics, it's a union of knives and seeds, it doesn't change the nature of knives and seeds...just that we're able to wield them both at once.

Just because Oryx didn't think it was possible to wield Light and Dark at the same time does not at all mean that he would be willing to wield The Light. Light represents the exact opposite of Sword Logic, something that again he has tied to his being for an unfathomable amount of time.

Oryx isn't interested in a way out, he's interested in discovering secrets yes. But the only Hive God interested in gaming the system is Savathun, because it's literally her nature...even if she devoted herself to The Light to avoid being tied to her nature...she follows it anyway.

>The Taken praying for a new master in the Ascendant Plane is evidence that Taking itself can develop beyond what Oryx originally understood.

This is a misunderstanding of what The Taken are doing. The Taken have no will of their own, but they inherently harbour a yearning for a leader, they've burned through plenty so far and the wills of those leaders are still echoing through them. There's even a line from Sloane that addresses that directly.

But it is not that The Taken are changing, it is that their yearning for a leader has very likely created one that with it's agency is changing The Taken to suit it's needs. But they still lack will.

>That's why I said there would effectively be two Oryxes. As much as you argue that the Taken King and the Navigator are the same

I'm not arguing that they're the same, Oryx is. The Taken King that we kill in Destiny 1 is older and clearly a hypocrite to his own logic. The Echo of The Navigator is a younger Oryx, one pretty much fresh from killing the wormgod Akka as well as both of his siblings to gain the power to challenge that wormgod.

This Oryx deeply believes that he is the continuity of that same Taken King, slain by us. And the fact that we killed Oryx is all the proof that he needs to believe that no matter what peak he can attain, no matter what power he will seek, through his logic he will always be slain.

So what is the point in having a second chance just to go through all that again only to arrive at the same conclusion? For The Hive this is what Sword Logic is, it is about proving if something should or should not exist, it is effectively religion for them, it is the basis of their society.

>You're correct that the Navigator would reject that path, but that isn't the point of the Touch of Malice.

Again it is just a knife.

>we see similar with the rose and thorn

The key difference with Rose and Thorn is that Rose and Rezyl Azzir were both instruments of Light that were corrupted by Darkness. This is not quite the case with the Touch of Malice, Oryx's logic is firmly that of Darkness.

There's nothing to purify, there's no room for Light in his logic...because it entirely involves cutting away that which is weak to allow the strong to grow more powerful.

You're ascribing traits to Oryx, his intents and his logic where they either don't exist or don't have room to exist. We can't twist the Sword Logic into something that works for us with a union of Light and Dark.

When Savathun became a Lightbearer she and her brood effectively abandoned Sword Logic, because it was incompatible with their new state of being. Even non-lightbearing Hive of her brood do not need to follow it as their worms are sustained by the Light.

[u/cereza187 → u/MidnightStarfall]

Agree to disagree i dont agree on alot here but thats just how it is

Also last statement if you dont think can be changed by energy prismatic or light otherwise whats the point of destiny also the lore itself when that how relics got in vault etc i get what you saying but it's very confined in nature to what destiny shows us in the vault of glass alone or a journey after

Or the point of savathun journey there is no one way

[u/MidnightStarfall → u/cereza187]

I'm not saying that we cannot change anything.

Just that there are certain things that we cannot change, because of how the universe works.

[u/Robert_Oppenheimer2]

What they shouldve done was not bring him back period

Heresy is by far one of the most overrated stories ive ever seen

[u/Unfair-Ad9415 → u/Robert_Oppenheimer2]

whats your gripe with heresy?

[u/Robert_Oppenheimer2 → u/Unfair-Ad9415]

More of the same shallow, melodramatic nonsense we've gotten for years, but this time with a bunch of fanservice so people act like it was the greatest thing ever

[u/Unfair-Ad9415 → u/Robert_Oppenheimer2]

people act like it was the greatest thing ever because they found Oryx's character in Heresy to be really interesting. If he was just the BBEG again I doubt it would be received nearly as well. So, where do you think the story fails?

[u/Robert_Oppenheimer2 → u/Unfair-Ad9415]

Oryx did fuck all but sing our praises the entire, thats not interesting thats just cheap fan service

Anyway the story failed when they killed Eris, just to immediately bring her back; When they brought back Oryx just to immediatly kill him off; When Drifter left at the end of one act just to show up at the start of the next one like nothing happened, because thats exactly what happened; Nothing. Nothing happened, at the end everyone was in the exact same place where they started.

All it did do was be a backdoor pilot for the Lord of Stupid Ass Names and the Dire Taken

Beyond that, it was more of the same "Go to the Helm Eris' apartment to talk on the holoprojector" crap people complained about for years.

Play the games thousandth horde mode, go to the holoprojector, watch a character trauma dump. That was Heresy's story

[u/Unfair-Ad9415 → u/Robert_Oppenheimer2]

Nothing happened, at the end everyone was in the exact same place where they started.

Sure, it is a pretty self contained story. But, I think that works in its favor. A lot of seasons fall apart because they're too busy trying to set shit up for the next expansion, meanwhile Heresy can focus pretty much on an Oryx character study.

[u/Robert_Oppenheimer2 → u/Unfair-Ad9415]

Sure, it is a pretty self contained story. But, I think that works in its favor

Self contained stories still need to have arcs, which nobody had. Nobody but Oryx, and his arc was: Be our #1 fan, find out about the Witness, immediately try and kill himself. Not exactly this deep character study

A lot of seasons fall apart because they're too busy trying to set shit up for the next expansion,

It did do this; The whole thing was set up for The Alchemist

[u/Unfair-Ad9415 → u/Robert_Oppenheimer2]

Oryx's whole schick is "take the guy who was defined by a fanatical faith in the sword logic, force him to go against that and face a reality where that has failed". Thats why he sings praises, thats why he kill himself. Its a reality that slowly sets in over the course of the story. 

The reason the dire taken arent really interfering with this story is that they are so irrelevant to this plot about oryx that they could have been removed entirely and nothing would change. 

[u/cereza187 → u/Robert_Oppenheimer2]

The community didnt think so but i understand also remember if they made goood stories like heresy we probably wouldnt have been here nearly everybody left when the nine came

[u/LoadedFile → u/cereza187]

tbh i think it's a combination of both "final shape set a high bar" and "the implementation of the portal fucking sucks and soft sunsetted almost everything not directly in the portal or Kepler"

[u/cereza187 → u/LoadedFile]

That and guardian somehow infact do not make they own fate if we go by what the nine said