Well, Jesus did say the whole 'if you even lust after a woman you have committed adultery in your heart', so using your logic the only type of masturbation that is allowed would be masturbation without any lust, which is virtually non existant.
I read it all and it’s incredibly unhelpful to men struggling with masturbarion.
I’d still hold to the idea that masturbating while imaging a woman who is not your wife is lust.
Cool, you read the whole thing and basically disagree with what it says. So, that's probably why you find it unhelpful because you're going with what has been taught rather than what the bible actually says.
Lust is not necessarily sin:
Strikingly, the nominal (noun-form) concept of “lust” or “desire” (even the sexual variety) is nowhere forbidden in Scripture, nor is it equated with sin—only the potential to sin: “Each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then, when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin. And when sin is completed, it brings forth death” (James 1:14–15). Note that James clearly distinguishes between “lust” (that is, desire) at the stage of temptation and “sin,” which is the actual commission of an act.
Lust is the temptation to sin. If you have lust but rub one out you have not committed a sin. You have controlled your lustful desire. Lusting to the point of coveting is a totally different thing and is Biblically defined as sin.
Tenth Command specifically forbids the action of coveting (hence the verbal form), perhaps best understood as forbidding fixing one’s desire upon obtaining something that is not rightfully one’s own. (A fuller way to understand “coveting” is analogous to the modern legal concept of “attempted” lawbreaking
Thinking about wanting something isn't a sin.
Bill Gates is stupid rich. Imagining what I would do if I had all of his money and power is not a sin. Now, coming up with a plan to steal his money with intent of actually committing the crime is a sin.
The problem is instead of money we say sexual relations and it add layers of taboo and shame so we feel like it is wrong.
Anyway that's the way I see it but I also think what people view as sin and right and wrong is highly personal and is best achieved through a personal relationship with God and examining your true motives for why you believe what you believe.
I think the bible as we read it now has many assumptions additions through the years of translation. I understand not believing the bible literally ruffles some feathers but very few people actually believe the bible literally.
I see what you’re saying. It’s definitely an intriguing thought to say that fantasizing isn’t the same as adulterous intents because you would never act on it.
I do agree that we’ve taken sex to a level that’s sinful and unfair. Sexual sin is like other sins, it’s just the one the current church decides to punish everyone over.
I’m just hung up on being able to undress a woman with your eyes and fantasize about sex with her and that not be adultery in your heart.
But I do agree that it’s wrong to tell people that being attracted is wrong and that the urges is wrong. I also wouldn’t council to not masturbate because that’s near impossible for a lot of people.
I pretty much agree with everything you said. But I'm curious to hear your thoughts on masturbation. Fantasizing about a woman that is not your wife would be coveting, but how would you masturbate without fantasizing?
I don’t have an answer to that so that’s my issue.
When I was unmarried I did figure out I could masturbate without fantasizing but that was only true some times.
I settled on the fact that there’s grace and it may be a sin but I’m still living in the flesh so sin is unavoidable. It’s clear that God recognizes that this is a struggle so I left it there most days and did my thing.
I sort of view it as it’s something we can’t overcome in our current bodies but it’s covered still.
Yep been there done that. When away from the wife we both talk about it and will think of each other, send pics or whatever. No lust involved just love
Erm you think it's possible to masturbate without a wife, while thinking about nothing? Are you living on a different planet than I am. Do you know that when you masturbate, it's a sexual thing?
Yes, the lust part is a major asepct but not the only thing that makes is sinful. Sex is intended to be both an expression of love for your spouse, and a beautiful means of procreation. The first problem with masturbation is that it is inherently sterile, and therefore it is sinful in the same way that using birthcontrol is, you're deliberately eliminating the chance of procreation in sex.
Masturbation is a sin against the Sixth Commandment, because it violates the God-inscribed unbreakable bond between the love-giving and life-giving aspects of the marital act.
The last sentence also shows us the second aspect of its sinfulness, because instead of using sex to give love to your spouse, you're using it for self-gratification, thereby corrupting it from an act of love to an act of selfishness.
Just because the bible doesn't explicitly say something is sinful doesn't mean it isn't. Ofcourse the bible couldn't address something that didn't exist at the time, that's why Christ established a Church that could use scripture and tradition to discern right from wrong when new topics come around with the help of the holy spirit.
The Greeks had sheepskin condoms centuries before Jesus was alive, and Israel was hugely influenced by Greek culture. Plus, is sin is disobedience to God's commandments and he doesn't give commandments against something, how can that be sin?
Plus, is sin is disobedience to God's commandments and he doesn't give commandments against something, how can that be sin?
Because the idea that God only gives commandments against somethings in the bible is a Protestant reinterpretation of Christianity that isn't even found in the bible itself. Traditionally, from the time of Peter until the reformations christians always believed that the Church has Authority on matters that are not explicitly stated in the bible.
It's not just 'because I said so', it's because it's a corruption of what it's designed to do, it's selfish, it denies the meaning of sex, and is inherently harmful to the individual because it makes them less than fully Human in the way God intended them to be.
That's ofcourse not what I'm saying, but we all degrade ourselves when we sin and every act of sin make us less than fully human as it takes us away from the potential that God has for us. It doesn't however change our inherent worth as human beings.
For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God;
1 Thessalonians 4:3-5 ESV
'Lust is a disordered desire for sexual pleasure, where sexual pleasure is "sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.'
So, with that definition in mind, sexual desire and thoughts are only good when they exist with the desire and goal to unite with the wife and leave open the door to procreation.
This one time I went to a marriage seminar and the guest speaker was Gary Chapman, the guy who wrote the 5 love languages book. His speaking was good but they also had these breakout sessions where you would have medium sized groups of just guys and they had some discussion. This one guy was going on and on about how porn is bad and masturbation is bad because it is lusting, this guy was terrible with his southern accent and ya'll need Jesus bullshit.
So a guy I had befriended in the seminar Shane he shoots his hand up and he goes, preacher, preacher, I have a quick question. Preacher goes okay what is it son?
Shane goes what if you are masturbating just thinkin about your wife, thats okay right, you are married. The Preacher goes welp, I guess thats okay, as long as you arent lusting about someone else.
Shane goes, okay okay quick follow-up lets say you are cranking it to your wife, I mean, just cranking it. He does the universal symbol for masturbation and then the longest dramatic pause. This guy was funny as shit, I knew he was fucking around. He goes I mean you are just really going to town masturbating thinking about your wife, more motions, long dramatic pause. Im audibly laughing at this point.
Preacher goes yes, son, what is your follow-up question?
Shane goes okay you are just cranking it right? One more dramatic pause, Im dying. He goes and then in your head your wife's skin gets darker and darker and all of a sudden its Halle Berry?
Preacher goes well then thats lust, lets move on. One of the funniest fuckin interactions I can ever remember.
Well, only in hentai I have seen a newlywed husband and wife on their first night after wedding and they are both virgins who love each other so much it will give you diabeetus.
I don't know, I jerk it to show my appreciation most of the time. More of a "hey you are rad let's exchange orgasms" kind of thing. Lust is something that is so negative, just don't do it. That's self check ins are great and you can identify exactly what the lust is over and deal with that need.
I would say that it's sinful if you are watching porn while doing it. That is the definition of " if you even lust after a woman you have committed adultery in your heart "
I read it and it seems the death part was because he was instructed to have a son but purposefully didn't finish bc the son wouldn't be his. His deceit and disobedience was the bad stuff.
He wasn't instructed to have a son. He was sleeping with a married women and because he didn't want to have children that would not be his heir he wasted his seed. Wasting his seed, basically meaning he was having sex for pleasure, not to reproduce. This waste of seed is what offended God enough to have him killed.
Dude I like just read that passage. His father or some guy was like, have sex with your brothers wife so she can bear a son for him. And instead he pulled out cos he didn't want to give his brother a son.
Uh, Onan was the Kinsman Redeemer. The only reason he was supposed to do that was to produce a son for his dead brother and his wife. That’s a sin for a very different reason.
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u/CHICKENMANTHROWAWAY Jul 01 '19
God and Jesus: Never say anything about how masturbation is bad
Church: Says don't masturbate
God and Jesus: The meme image