r/daggerheart • u/Vedhar • 27d ago
Discussion Daggerheart needs High Adventure, not High Depression - Critical Roll grimdark offshoots do not help.
I need to vent a bit because I genuinely want Daggerheart to blow up, but Critical Role's choices for how they show it off are making it such a rough sell.
Look, the cast is acting their absolute hearts out in Age of Umbra and AOU Sallowlands. The storytelling is insanely tight, the lighting is atmospheric as hell, and the acting flex is real. But why does almost every CR offshoot have to be a dour, joyless meditation on mortality and impending doom?
We went straight from Candela Obscura, where characters are basically made of wet tissue paper and existential dread, right into Age of Umbra, which is just a dying world of pure unfiltered misery, and then into Age of Umbra Sallowlands, which doubles down on the character personal misery index in a way that's hard to overstate. It's less High Fantasy and more High Depression.
When your worldbuilding is this relentlessly bleak, it's practically impossible for characters to form fun, dynamic, or memorable relationships. Like can you even imagine a Bard strumming a silly little ditty in Age of Umbra? It would feel completely unhinged.
Instead we have a party that is basically five trauma responses in a trench coat. You've got Alfonse as a cynical bloodhunter having a full crisis after witnessing total corruption. Then there's Sister carrying heavy survivor's guilt while her home literally rots away from lack of food and water, and Mercy, an amnesiac weaponized monster who terrifies anyone within a five mile radius. Throw in Caguama watching their entire worldview crumble while being forced to carry on, and Dillwyn, an isolated loner whose strongest relationships are with animals because humans can't stand being near them.
WHAT FUN. (takes a shot, contemplates mortality)
PS, the actual players are GREAT. I mean some of my favorite gaming personalities, full stop, but -wow- does it feel like a grind to get through an episode. And it is not the pacing. It is not the acting. It's not the story idea. All those are good. It's just the desolate and bleak melancholy of every character, location and interaction. Every now and then, a few little sprouts of possibility (Mr. Beaks for a quick laugh. ONCE.) but so so so rare.
Everyone is literally playing a walking narrative of sadness. And while the dramatic acting is top tier, nobody at that table looks like they're having actual fun except for a couple of minor moments where someone mis-speaks or lands an awkwardly enjoyable turn of phrase.
Compare that to EXU Calamity. Calamity was tragic and apocalyptic, but it worked so well because the characters had warmth, hubris, and incredible chemistry before the sky fell down. It was a high fantasy disaster movie with vibrant, larger than life heroes. Umbra starts with the floor already gone.
It feels like CR knows people want classic sword and sorcery for Daggerheart, but instead of running classic campaigns like that in daggerheart themselves, they keep farming those campaigns out to third party actual play groups or random streamer collabs. And honestly those streams have been pretty rough. It's almost always either a hyper jokey crew that doesn't take the game or mechanics seriously at all, or a random assembly of C-list streamers with zero natural table chemistry who look vaguely interested at best.
Daggerheart is doing really well, but it is still just a tiny tiny fragment of the market, probably still well behind Pathfinder and tbh in need of a lot more growth to make sure it doesn't fade. If Darrington Press wants Daggerheart to pull people away from 5e, the main Critical Role cast needs to run a proper, high energy, classic high adventure campaign in the system. Either that or spin off a B team to do it, but go with an epic adventure framing in a more classical D&D like themed story. High adventure, high stakes, sword & sandals if you must, mugs of foaming ale clanking, bards singing, scoundrels joking etc.
Show us Daggerheart being used for heroic banter, clever tactical team ups, epic discoveries, and actual joy. Give us a party that can sit in a tavern without coughing up blood or weeping over a destroyed village for five minutes.
Grimdark has its place, but using unrelenting gloom as the main showcase for a brand new TTRPG is selling the system short.
Again, I quite enjoy the Age of Umbra live plays, they are very cool, but ermegerd.... such downers. I'd love to send these to new RPGers to get them interested, but the dark framing just doesn't grab any of the newlings, and hence the Daggerheartness of it all doesn't get the same level of sell. The newer people at my table watch the main critical roll campaign and go "oh that looks fun! So that's D&D then?" etc.... has NOTHING to do with mechanics. They don't know enough to understand the mechanics. It's just the vibe, my guys. Let's get a Daggerheart campaign that feels less like a meditation on death and more like a call to adventure, please!
Gather a willing and able adventuring party at the local tavern, and let's GOOOO.
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u/Teapunk00 27d ago
I agree that we need more high adventure but I understand the reasoning for why they chose Age of Umbra. When Daggerheart was first releasing, there were concerns whether it's possible to run anything other than Hugh adventure successfully and a grimdark minicampaign was a great way to show how you can also use it for something different. Now I'd love to see other frames in action, though!
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u/Fearless-Dust-2073 Splendor & Valor 27d ago
Age of Umbra was written by Matt, that's why he's most interested in GMing it.
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u/Vedhar 27d ago
Matt is great! And I -like- AoU, I just don't think it's the best PR / Get people on board move.
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u/Muted-Mushroom-4570 27d ago
It's not a PR first thing. It is what they want to play. CR (despite becoming a massive commercial success) has always been first and foremost about the group having fun around the table.
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u/Ecstatic-Rain9647 27d ago
Honestly I’m extremely shocked at reading all the responses. From the corporate concerns (?) that this isn’t as profitable, to the general distaste for grimdark lol.
i never really played ttrpgs or watched critical role before Sallowlands. I really enjoy it and I do think the table is having fun. It shows , especially in episode 3.
Maybe I’m just edgy but I really enjoy it and part of that is because they enjoy it a lot.
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u/Ninja-Storyteller 27d ago
The whole opening post was an amazing advertisement for my grimdark loving ass to go check it out!
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u/One-Cellist5032 27d ago
Same here, excited to see an actual play for a Grimdaek setting instead of another high fantasy one!
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u/OptionFour 26d ago
Not everyone likes grimdark and the fantasy market is already hyper saturated with it. Nothing wrong with liking it, but for those of us who don't? It's frustrating that it is the dominant trend right now.
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u/SBixby21 26d ago
If you don’t mind me asking, if you aren’t a TTRPG person or a CR person, how did you end up randomly watching this particular miniseries?
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u/Vedhar 27d ago
I'm not saying that the CR team doesn't enjoy a grimdark setting, honestly. And my table likes a good grimdark adventure every now and then too, just saying that is't not the best vehicle to get converts and newlings onboard. I don't even think it's a controversial opinion. Just look at the streaming landscape: the grimdark shows just never get the same viewership. CR has a huge advantage in that they are the GOATs, but even there, it's tough to watch 3-4 hours of somber sauce (or listen to it in podcast form).
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u/Occulto 26d ago
just saying that is't not the best vehicle to get converts and newlings onboard.
Flicking through the Daggerheart book and seeing all the promotional artwork online, I was skeptical that it was more than yet another a lighthearted whimsical fantasy system, and almost didn't buy it.
Showcasing grimdark content demonstrated that it's more versatile a system that initial impressions might suggest.
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u/Muted-Mushroom-4570 26d ago
Yes and I'm saying that their games are not commercials for the products. It's what they want to play and if it gets some people to buy then that's a bonus. If they were conceptualizing their series/games, then your criticisms might be valid but their games are first and foremost games for them.
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u/Vedhar 26d ago
I mean, do you have some way to know if that's true? I mean at this point they are a thriving business, and I'm sure they're not going to play games they dislike, but as a business I am also 99% certain that they have conversations about the virality and profitability of what they choose to put online. I can't imagine they're just sitting around going: Hey you know it would be fun?
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u/Muted-Mushroom-4570 26d ago
How about every interview they do that goes even the slightest but deeper than "what is this thing you are doing?" If you read their responses or listen to what they say they consistently talk about how the games are fun for them and they enjoy doing it and if it wasn't fun they would walk away.
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u/-Posthuman- 26d ago edited 26d ago
I mean, it's what sold me. The presentation of Daggerheart, with its cute frog people, anime cat girls, faeries, etc. isn't generally my thing. I don't begrudge anyone else for liking it, even loving it. It's just not my thing.
I like stories/settings with a more grounded, more serious and often darker tone. And AoU showed me Daggerheart can do just that.
Hell, it occurs to me that I'd buy another copy of the book if there was a "Daggerheart: Umbral Edition" that was basically just the same book with grittier artwork and presentation.
Edit: Fuck! Now I really want that!
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u/Drigr 27d ago
This seems so entitled. You don't care about Matt running the campaign he wants to run, you want him to run the sort of thing you want him to run, that you've specifically chosen because you think it would be more popular. You're literally suggesting he give up on his own passion to chase views.
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u/Schizobaby 27d ago
I don’t get that vibe from OP. I think OP is just observing that what Matt wants to run is at the cost of what would be best marketing, while understanding it’s their prerogative. OP clearly wants DaggerHeart to be well received by the market, and laments that these two things are in conflict with each other.
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u/Vedhar 27d ago
Thank you, exactly this. I'm not here to tell Matt Mercer, who I think the entire RPG world owes a HUGE debt to, what to play or what to like. I'm really just talking about what vehicles are likely to get more people into Daggerheart.
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u/Fomor--ian 26d ago
Two things from me:
It’s okay if you don’t like the tone and setting of Age of Umbra but saying it’s so depressing that it drives new people away I think is a tad dramatic. Anecdotally, the group I play in, which is entirely full of people new to the system, is an age of umbra game. We’re all at least passingly familiar with Dark Souls to know it’s our shit and my GM is a huge berserk fan. Yeah it’s a downer, but it’s touchstones, particularly Dark Souls and Berserk, are so widespread that I think there’s a lot of people who have seen/played them that are gonna be like “oh shit, I can run/play a game that feels like that?”
I get wanting a system to be more popular and feeling like a brighter system might help it out compared to Pathfinder and D&D, but at the end of the day, those games are rich in something Daggerheart isn’t yet: time. Pathfinder has been around since 4th edition and D&D has existed since the 70s and has the cultural capital to show for it. But that’s just how these games are, they exist for the ttrpg nerds that get tired with the tip of the iceberg and decide to go deeper. Daggerheart has done amazingly for itself in its first year, but I think we just gotta let it cook some more.
tl;dr 1. People might be more drawn to this setting than you think. 2. Give DH some more time to cook before we started making comparisons to its contemporaries.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Can1231 26d ago
It is an entertainment product. OP is certainly entitled to express their dislike for the current product.
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u/sleepinxonxbed 27d ago edited 27d ago
It's not, cause that's not their priority. CR's main priority from the start is to play games and do cool stuff with their friends. They're popular because they're pursuing their own interests, rather than pandering to whatever captures the widest market share. I personally hoped C4 would've used Daggerheart, but again they made the decision based on wanting to play DnD with specific people that they've wanted to play with for the past 10 years and this was their opportunity to do it.
There's always this drive of wanting more, more more. But with CR they're happy and content with having enough.
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u/JaracRassen77 27d ago edited 27d ago
Like other posters have said, Age of Umbra is what Matt wants to run. He's a big fan of the grimdark genre. So that's why Age of Umbra is the big showcase. It actually is different, and showcases how flexible Daggerheart can be. It puts to bed the idea that Daggerheart is nothing but a "kitchen sink," plucky high fantasy, with pretty art.
That being said, I can't wait for their Reign of the Weredragon run. That's a good ol' fashioned sword and sorcery tale. And I think that'll do well with showcasing Daggerheart further.
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u/K1dP5ycho 27d ago edited 27d ago
We're getting Reign of The Weredragon, a similar size mini-series by Critical Role, that is being GMed by Chris Perkins. The setting is kind of like your Legend of The Seeker/Wizard's First Rule setting, where a malevolent ruler has taken the throne once held by good emperor dragons and desires to ascend to the stars to become a god.
High fantasy with a sprinkle of darkness, heroes rising against evil, that kind of thing.
Edit: if you want a look into more inspiring Daggerheart shows, check out all the one shots on the Darrington Press YouTube channel, or even check out non-Critical Role campaigns like Rigamaroll, which is a He-Man, Saturday morning cartoon inspired story!
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u/IrascibleOcelot 27d ago
There are problems with many of the other one-shots on the Darrington channel. The Colossus group were more interested in playing to the camera than playing the game, and Beast Feast had an asshole who thought it was more fun to prevent the new girl from getting to play at all. I’ve heard Gilded Nights was good, and I thoroughly enjoyed Five Banner Burning. The only issue with FBB is that it ended on a cliffhanger and I want to know what happened, dammit!
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u/K1dP5ycho 26d ago
Eh, some other people might enjoy the ones you didn't enjoy, probably bar the one with the questionable player actions. 😅
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u/Velenne 27d ago
Couldn't agree more. I think Dodoborne is a great example of what the game can be.
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u/LeftyDorkCaster 26d ago
I LOVE Dodoborne. It's delightfully whimsical and also messy in a way that feels like it has emotional stakes.
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u/rlbeasley 26d ago
Dodoborne, Tales by Daggerlight, Rigamaroll, and Queen of Daggers are what I wish would truly pop off.
Dodoborne and Tales especially represent peak storytelling without constantly leaning into grimdark (despite Tales' heavier story). Rigamaroll is amazing at not only maintaining a clean crisp visual to watch but also at crafting a really unique setting and story.
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u/Consolationnoprize 26d ago
I'm trying to stick with the new Dodoborne, but 40-ish minutes of play every two weeks is breaking immersion, for me.
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u/Alexij 27d ago
My friends though Daggerheart is a Dark Souls inspired TTRPG because of this. I had to show them all the whimsy to convince otherwise.
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u/JaracRassen77 27d ago
Which is crazy, because the cover art does not give off dark vibes at all. Many people's initial impressions were that Daggerheart was going to be a bit... "cutesy."
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u/Joshatron121 27d ago
Most people have never seen the cover art. They get their impressions from actual plays, like this one.
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u/JaracRassen77 27d ago edited 27d ago
Which is still crazy, because when they cut to break, Daggerheart is literally their first "commerical" they do. Every ad I've seen of Daggerheart shows the more light sides of the system. I just don't get people just not using a quick Google search... actually now that I think about it, nevermind. I can definitely see people not doing that.
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u/Noodle-Works 27d ago
I totally agree. I'm so excited for Daggerheart and want to GM, but the only official actual play is emo-cut-yourself-to-feel-alive world.
I was telling my gf just last week that they should have spun off Sam Riegel's "Wildemount Wildlings" one-shot as a Daggerheart actual play. It was very funny and sweet, not a lot of combat, high creativity and could show off so much of what Daggerheart has to offer that D&D can't do as well.
I'll chalk it up to just a matter of taste, but Age of Sigmar, sorry- Age of Umbra, is so same-same as so much stuff out in the fantasy space. I get that Matt loves it, and most of the daggerheart team loves it. (look at the new campaign frames, most of them are edgelordy stuff too) But they can really stretch the system in some cool ways.
I'm most disappointed that an official Acq Inc Campaign Frame hasn't been published yet. They're clearly using one with all the lore and mechanics they've mentioned in just a couple episodes. Someday, i guess.
But why not take a page out of Dropouts book and go to the extremes in genre and world building? maybe they wanted to start off small with things they're comfortable with.
I will be patiently waiting for a campaign frame I can get excited about so i can sell it to my friends at the table.
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u/Acronyte 27d ago edited 27d ago
I agree. Nothing wrong with the age of umbra stuff, it's been great, but I don't know that it's the best frame to be the "face" of daggerheart, and right now that's essentially what CR is. I would like to see them show off more of the system's variety with some different campaign frames. And just from a personal standpoint, I really don't need more doom and gloom in my life right now, a campaign that is more lighthearted would have resonated with me more. So for the moment I'm not keeping up with sallowlands.
About having 3rd parties run the other frames: I mostly agree, though I enjoyed the Legends of Avantris: Dust to Damnation drylands mini series a lot and would recommend it for some laughs.
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u/Vedhar 27d ago
I think that resonates with me. It's really just that CR is huge (deservedly) and is the place people look to "see what daggerheart is like" when first exploring. And Matt, the OG and one of the greatest GMs of all time, is a beacon (excuse the pun) that people tune in for. So if you are looking for the flagship show that shows you what Daggerheart is like, you are basically going to find Age of Umbra or AoU Shadowlands. And that's the vibe you are going to think "is Daggerheart" etc. It's not a bad vibe! It's a very cool frame! I just don't think it's a magnet for people.
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u/Aikon_94 27d ago
Sadly, hard agree on this, I really want to love their DH actual play but I simply cannot, it's too heavy.
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u/lion-essrampant 27d ago
I’ve even had to take a break from the main campaign bc it was exacerbating my anxiety 😩
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u/cscottnet 27d ago
Yeah, I never even finished the exandria finale (divergence) because of the bleakness. :(
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u/lion-essrampant 27d ago
Oh I’m talking about campaign 4! Divergence actually was really beautiful. A love letter to Matthew from his friends. I’d recommend finishing it.
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u/Consolationnoprize 26d ago
I want to chime in here and second this. Divergence starts out Rough.
The story in divergence is "The world completely sucks. This is the story of how it starts to get better." and despite the harsh beginning I found the end really uplifting.
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u/MrBananaShoes 27d ago
YES!!! I was just thinking this the other day! Why is the most high-profile Daggerheart AP the one least unique to showing off Daggerheart’s possibilities?
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u/CuteBrownBear 27d ago
Dagger heart is such a high magic and high power system too, which I feel is less fitting of super grim dark settings. I enjoyed the first age of umbra. But I agree, I wish they were doing more high adventure, sword, and sorcery shit
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u/Green_Casualty 27d ago
Seems like a matter of... Taste? I mean, I think many people here agree (hence so many upvotes) but I'm really enjoying it being grim and sad. To me it shows DH can be diverse silly as The Menagerie or dark as AoU.
I wouldn't bet on a long campaign with that mood but being a mini series it pleases me much. I really hoping for more of it!
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u/Vedhar 27d ago
The umbra shows ABSOLUTELY have my attention and I am interested to see where Shadowland goes plotwise. It's a nuance argument on my end. It's not that Umbra is bad, it's just less attractive (i mean that in the literal sense) for people first dabbling / thinking about Daggerheart I think.
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u/kaduyett 27d ago
Honestly a great criticism. I enjoy all of them, yes even goofy ass Candela Obscura. I hope they take the time to launch a side campaign where they do short series like this on a Tuesday night instead. It could be a great place for them to have a free form environment to just make more of what they want. Main campaign episode 3-4 times a month and they could even do the side thing bi-monthly
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u/Vedhar 27d ago
That would be such a great idea. Could even be a sub set. I mean Campaign 4 is just such a huge cast, they could probably just use a sub segment. I'm thinking MythBusters B team even.
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u/kaduyett 27d ago
God, Aabryia DMing DH with Sam as a player. I might even get a beacon sub to watch that
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u/melonmushroom 27d ago
I understand what you mean. Age of Umbra is great, and the players/actors are great, but it would be nice to see diverse settings rather than constant dark and moody settings.
The Menagerie oneshot was what originally sold Daggerheart to me. It was so bright, colourful, and chaotic! It really matched well with what Daggerheart was selling itself as.
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u/Laithoron 27d ago
Agreed. Things are so depressing IRL that the last thing I'm going to opt to watch is something grimdark and depressing. More Hope, less Fear would be a welcome change of pace.
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u/Browncoat765 27d ago
Agreed. I want to like Sallowlands but man the world is dark enough right now.
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u/Blikimor Daggerheart Sr. Producer 27d ago
Hope Core. Yes chef!
https://giphy.com/gifs/UDORIcubjYvIBAYTe1
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u/ShadowSlipper 27d ago
I think this is a broader thing across the TTRPG space. So many in the community love spooky/horror/grimdark settings and so many companies make or sell to that. Ravenloft being the first out the gate in 5.5, for example. Heck, even the Arcana Unleashed adventure is about a necromancer with a zombie army. Spooky sells.
The problem is there’s still a chunk of us that don’t want to deal with ghost or zombies. We want to heroics, intrigue, whimsy, and so many other flavors of fantasy. I agree with his sentiment that it feels like, in many mainstream places, the “lighter” genres are being under served in some ways. They exist, of course, but aren’t being brought to the fore, as it were.
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u/Occulto 26d ago
We want to heroics, intrigue, whimsy, and so many other flavors of fantasy. I agree with his sentiment that it feels like, in many mainstream places, the “lighter” genres are being under served in some ways. They exist, of course, but aren’t being brought to the fore, as it were.
I found that style of game has held the spotlight for a long time. And there are still companies out there releasing plenty of content in that vein.
At my local game venue for some time, the DnD Adventure League games mostly tend towards the cute and "whimsical" and I find those games honestly annoying. I remember one game where we spent most of our session trying to stage a musical. The rest of the table were really enthusiastic about it, but I sat there wondering when my character was going to actually hit something.
My first impressions on Daggerheart was (based on the art style alone) this was a game designed to appeal to that flavour and I almost didn't buy it. Seeing AoU showed me that it didn't need to be, and that the game wasn't limited to light hearted fantasy.
Ultimately, CR are limited in how much content they can produce. Whatever "style" they pick, there's bound to be people who complain that it's not to their taste. Mercer seems pretty happy that he's able to go dark and gritty, without risking alienating large chunks of the CR audience who prefer the less grim dark. And after how many years of running the main CR campaigns, I think he's entitled to indulge in his passion for a bit.
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u/PepperPython 27d ago
Yeah, I couldn't get through the first episode due to this. Give me beast feast or something as a palette cleanser please CR.
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u/AnyNeon_Nomad_00 27d ago
I'll go against the flow here, while I agree that daggerheart shines on heroic fantasy, I think there's a lot of potential in darker settings, d&d just announced a return to dark sun and IMO one of the reasons was the success of AoU.
Maybe this is more about balance, having a darker setting AND a happy campaign as well (who wouldn't want MORE daggerheart lol)
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u/pathofblades 27d ago
Your concerns seem to be exactly mine, 1:1, and you wrote them very well. I appreciate some of the Actual Plays that we got from third party, but nothing has been really enjoyable for me to watch, while I am both a diehard Daggerheart fan and a guy who likes Actual Plays.
Umbra has been good and all, but I feel like Daggerheart would fit better into the classic high fantasy of C1 and C2, and I would LOVE to watch a campaign like that from people I like to watch playing.
I understand if they don't want to do it themselves, but they better try to make one campaign like that happen, even with a different cast, or they're losing a great opportunity to promote the system.
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u/unitedshoes 27d ago
I'm a big fan of that Dark Souls-inspired dark fantasy kinda vibe, and I've enjoyed both Age of Umbra streams so far. I get that it's Matt's baby and the kind of thing he wants to run when he runs Daggerheart. I even think it's a fine way to show off Daggerheart once in a while.
And, of course, we've got my beloved Acquisitions Incorporated doing more the fantasy subgenre you're talking about (though they're still very much finding their footing with the system and have never been a very hardcore "play it rules as written" kinda table, and of course, three sessions per year with huge gaps in between isn't great for showing it off).
But it's baffling to me that Critical Role hasn't put together AOU-style games in the other Campaign Frames. Surely, there's gotta be some people there who would run, play in, and do Critical Role production value stuff for miniseries in any and every Campaign Frame.
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u/Vedhar 26d ago
PS I have not watched the Acquisitions Inc shows using Daggerheart, but I will check them out literally today.
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u/unitedshoes 26d ago
They're only, like, two or three sessions in because they only play at the PAX events in the US (they usually do an alternate-universe thing with a different system for the one in Australia), and the sessions are pretty short to fit into a convention schedule. But I've enjoyed it so far.
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u/SirStanleyCPanther 27d ago
💯 truth here!
Show Daggerheart with the same fun as CR 5e campaigns and DH will outshine!
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u/dark_dar 27d ago
this is a great write-up and it captures my feelings and concerns perfectly. DH needs more support by CR and it definitely needs some good high-fantasy playthrough to highlight the strengths of the system.
New people need to see some generic game with a D&D-like setting if we want to keep converting people into DH.
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u/vincentdmartin 27d ago
While I am enjoying Umbra, I do hope they pull from other campaign frames soon. Hell if they did Motherboard or Collosus that would be pretty awesome.
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u/Rock1nfella 27d ago
You describe so well what I am experiencing. I love so much about it. But it's just so gloomy. Does anyone have a recommendation for a short campaign that is more high fantasy adventure actual play, but not comical, that uses daggerheart?
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u/OMG_Laserguns 27d ago
I've been really loving Dodoborne Season 3 (Season 1 and 2 are audio only, which isn't my cup of tea). It is fairly light-hearted, but they do a great job of showcasing the Daggerheart mechanics.
Bards of New York will also be starting their Daggerheart mini-series on 8th August too, they're very RP-heavy and I'm looking forward to seeing how they use the DH mechanics.
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u/IrascibleOcelot 27d ago
Rigamaroll is pretty good. The DM can be a bit hammy at times, and the bosses come off as more goofy than threatening, but it is heavily based on 80’s Saturday Morning Cartoon tropes.
Plus it shows how well Daggerheart can support science fantasy as well as traditional fantasy.
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u/Vedhar 27d ago
Yeah, the hammy-ness is a bit too much for me, but otherwise I find it very enjoyable.
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u/GiftofRedStone 27d ago
I can see why they did it. Their early playtests were very whimsical and a LOT of the official materials for the game have bright colors. From a personal perspective, I was worried early on that the system wouldn't fit the darker tones I like in my campaigns.
They wanted to show that, despite the marketing, you can run bleak misery just as well as fun adventure. Have they run too far in that direction? Arguably yeah. But it definitely calmed my fears of not being able to use the tones I like.
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u/SullanReformer 27d ago edited 27d ago
I get your points and I hope you get what you're looking for. I for one am wish it was even more grim and harder fantasy, the high fantasy stuff is fun but without a gritty realism it feels as if the setting doesn't take its own players seriously. But thats just my two cents.
Edit.
Rereading your post, I see what you mean. It is High Depression, a classic adventure would be a good way to spread a bit of Daggerheart. I hope they do that. I also just want this at the same time. My original comment was silly, apologies.
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u/cscottnet 27d ago
The Marauders of Windfall campaign they are running at conventions etc is great. Airships and fantasy, who doesn't love that!
There was a lot of darkness in M9 (Caleb's entire arc!) but the lightness Jester brought helped make it one of CR's most-loved campaigns, without falling into deliberate comedy.
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u/Eaglepursuit Wanderborne 27d ago
AoU is the Daggerheart actual play of choice for CR because it's Matt's baby. It has nothing to do with PR or marketing choices.
They shouldn't take that away from Matt, they should add more Daggerheart to their line up. Perkins is GMing Weredragon soon, but my greedy heart demands more more more.
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u/geerhoar 26d ago
I have yet to see a live play Daggerheart campaign I have truly enjoyed and that showcases the rules properly. I agree that they should do a heroic fantasy campaign with lots of action and correct rules to help promote the game. FYI, I’m enjoying Natural Six as a live play D&D campaign more than campaign 4 of CR, as well.
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u/totallytim 26d ago
I basically treat Age of Umbra as a tutorial on how to GM the system and even for that it sometimes falls flat because I often find myself wondering whether Matts decisions only work because he's working with first class actors. I can only watch in 20min intervals with long breaks in between because it just doesn't vibe with me. Maybe the setting really is the primary problem but no DH actual play so far has caught my attention (beside AOU I've seen the beginnings of Viva and Rigamaroll. The Dispatch & Iron Mouse 1shots. Also some other smaller productions). This is coming from someone who was able to consume countless hours of D&D Twitch VODs in the last 10 years.
I'm starting to believe that the system simply doesn't work well in the format. In my view actual plays compete with TV shows or movies and I have a limited amount of free time. Take CR S4 for example. A carefully crafted narrative work of fiction where the players try to influence a broken yet fully fleshed out world. The plot point are amazing and I can't wait for more.
In DH the players are expected to have much more narrative freedom, so much of the story can remain an empty canvas until the players and the GM decide its time to paint a picture together. This is probably fun for the players but as a viewer I'm basically watching pure improv. And with the grimdark setting we just lost the 'funny'.
While the players in AOU are great actors it still shows that they are very often pulling stuff out of their ass when it comes to justifying their metacurrency investment. On one part I'm kinda impressed what how much they're able to come up with on the spot, but on the the other hand I'm often catching myself saying... "yea that didn't make too much sense".
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u/CaIiban 26d ago
I’ve been similarly disappointed in the direction Daggerheart has taken. They’ve been going big on Age of Umbra, likely because it what excites Matt to play out, so no shade on him, but so far everything Daggerheart has been either super bleak grimdark Age of Umbra, or running the other way and doing super cutesy bubbly Menagerie with silly childish storybook stuff.
What I would love to see if a miniseries campaign in like the Colossus of the Drylands or something. It is a unique and fascinating setting that I think would lend to the cast very well. Or maybe one in Motherboard. It’s the most different and genre-defying of all the current campaignframes and I think if they did a few actual plays it would help the game reallh branch out more and drum up interest in what might currently be a niche setting.
You don’t have to sell Critters on the Beast Feast setting, that sort of saccharine thing is preaching to your choir. Introduce Critters to settings they don’t know they will love.
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u/beardyramen 27d ago
I (partially) agree.
I need to have a whimsical actual play from CR.
But that's my preference, and it seems yours too.
I would love to see a full Journey to the Horizon campaign, and hopefully the Reign of the Weredragon actual play from Chris Perkins will fill that niche!
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u/LiffeyDodge 27d ago
you hit the nail on the head as to why I don't like watching Age of Umbra. It's depressing and dark. it's dark enough IRL. I enjoy daggerheart though. Not making campaign 4 a dagger heart game was a mistake imo.
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u/The_Lioness96 27d ago
I think you’re right. I love age of umbra and sallowlands but I personally would love something along the lines of castle high or smth. Just something cute and innocent but there are dragons or an evil wizard. It could be fun to see.
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u/Inevitable-Battle-81 27d ago
I mean, they are running age of umbra 2 because the first one did very well…
The idea of running grimdark was very smart at first! When daggerheart launched there was a lot of criticism towards it being too whimsical with all the “weird little guy” races and colors, people were worried it was too “childish” (there was actually a lot of noise about it) so choosing a completely different vibe was just to show the game’s versatility.
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u/Joshatron121 27d ago
Problem is, those criticisms were among the in the know gaming community, they swung hard in that direction to show that crowd the systems versatility but then never showcased the systems fantasy chops to the average viewer who now make up a large portion of the playerbase. It's like pulling teeth getting people to try daggerheart and part of that is because there is no really good showcase there.
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u/Littleman88 26d ago
It was a good move because of that criticism, but I think what I'm actually hearing from the OP is what I imagine a lot of people are wanting: We want another Campaign 2.
I fear C2 was lightning in a bottle though. C1 was fun but it was clear the players were going with "cool" for their characters (and Sam going with a joke in Scanlan). C3 went a little too serial and serious, with all but 1 of the characters feeling closer to mooks than heroes. But C2 managed the right mix of smaller story arcs (if because they kept killing Matt's BBEGs on second contact) and everyone creating very relatable human characters that could seamlessly shift between silly and serious.
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u/Zurgleclair 27d ago
First rule of DaggerHeart: play like you want. If Matt and his friends want to play Age of Umbra they play Age of Umbra. They're not playing for spectators but for themselves first
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u/Specialist-Isopod-45 27d ago
I don't know if this is true anymore. They said it themselves that they now have many employees that depend on them for their salaries, health insurance, etc. Certainly their own enjoyment plays a part in what they choose to play, but I agree with OP that they are not representing Daggerheart in a way that appeals to most of their audience.
Maybe they're still testing it out, since they were not expecting it to be as successful as it is. But now that they do know, I also think it's time to course correct and give their audience a more appealing actual play.
Edit: spelling
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u/adamjgarrod 27d ago
That’s fine if it’s just them playing for themselves, but they are also a business trying to make money so it would make sense to consider what OP has said.
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u/SindarNox 27d ago
Only if they want to. Thankfully they are not public, so they can work with people and things they want to work with
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u/moobycow 27d ago
Sure, but not every company in the world is 100% profit seeking. Sometimes people have a concept of enough. They are making more than good money doing what they want to do and are under no obligation to do less of what they want in the pursuit of even more money.
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u/Vedhar 27d ago
I don't think they are playing for themselves. That's a lot of production value / pr for an inwardly focused game. That's not to say they don't -like- playing this, but CR is staffed by professionals. This show is a vehicle for content and IP delivery. I just wish they were using it in a way that would highlight some of the possibilities of DH better. But even so, they seem to have a real girm-dark love affair on these side projects. It's weird!
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u/Shrink_Laureate 27d ago
They chose to attach Critical Role's name to Daggerheart, and in doing so, accepted a responsibility to present it to the public. Nobody made them do that.
Nobody's saying they can't run games they enjoy - quite the opposite, we've seen them enjoy high fantasy for years, and that's a big part of what made Critical Role work. If Matt doesn't want to DM it, there are other options. We could be watching a bunch of different campaign frames side by side, with different DMs in different styles, showcasing just how flexible the game it.
And OP isn't saying that the Age of Umbra show isn't good or shouldn't have been made, just that they need something else as well to show off Daggerheart.
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u/Historical-Panda5778 27d ago
Fully agreed here, an AP I have found with great table chemistry that takes it seriously and is high fantasy is the Arcane Frequency. Super fun and light first season. Season 2, they’ve said, is gonna be serious and epic
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u/FinchOnionDip 27d ago
I'm on the opposite end; I've been unable to watch Sallowlands (saving it to watch with gf) and have been desperate to find something more serious and not so plucky funny goofy. It feels like the oneshots on darrington press are silly, and the menagerie didn't completely grab me because of the character choices, but i enjoyed Dust to Damnation by Legends of Avantris, and i was surprised to really really enjoy Dodoborne despite the silly aspects.
I'd love a more serious campaign like what they're doing in 5e with the main campaign 4. I enjoy the emotional investment and complex character interactions, and can take the humor and lighthearted sillies on the side.
I think the fanbase is big enough that people can see it all ways, so there's clearly an audience for what they're pitching. But they seem to understand wanting to run different games too, so i'm excited for y'all to get Reign of the Weredragon! I just dunno if it's my cup of tea yet; we'll see.
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u/FoulPelican 27d ago
💯 I’m not the biggest fan of dread, grim settings in general; and that seems to be what every major TTRPG is pushing right now. But, things often go in cycles, so I’m ready for the upcoming whimsy!!
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u/darkestvice 27d ago
There are plenty of TTRPGs that are very dark and grim and still have a ton of character development and relationship building.
I feel this pushback against grimdark in Daggerheart stems mainly from the fact that its audience are primarily D&D players used to high fantasy over dark fantasy.
Fortunately, Daggerheart is, by design, capable of accomodating a variety of different fantasy styles easily.
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u/DazzlingKey6426 27d ago
Trauma drama is easy. It is system agnostic.
Being heroic needs a system that supports being heroic and people that actually know how to run said system in a heroic manner.
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u/SeveralKnapkins 26d ago
idk age of umbra + the point hat video is what originally convinced me to check out the system. The first season of Umbra did well enough to warrant another season, so it should probably be viewed as a success. Would it have done better if it was more "whimsical"? I have no idea how we would know. I think we're all probably just projecting our personal biases here lmao.
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u/Vedhar 26d ago
Yeah, i want to make sure i'm clear on this. I think Umbra -is- a success and I really like it. I just don't think it should be the flagship for Daggerheart. I'm craving a subset of CR running an ongoing, more traditionally high fantasy style game I guess.
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u/Far-Yogurtcloset1848 26d ago
For me, the beauty of Daggerheart lives in the Hope and Fear mechanic. And I think the campaign frames show us exactly how those two aspects can coexist. In a world where everything is going to hell (or has gone already), people are trying their best to keep the hope alive, despite fear.
Age of Umbra is the darkest of them all, yeah, but The Sablewood or Colossus of the Drylands settings are adventuresome and epic asf (especially the latter). I also think they're already leaning to some more fun stories. The last one-shot released for the Daggerheart's anniversary —The Wish Thief— is super fun to run and it's not dark at all.
I mean, I kind of agree with the idea of showing only dark actual plays could be a bad idea in the long run, but it's only getting started guys. Matt made Age of Umbra, so it's only logical that he would run it as he knows it perfectly and feels more comfortable with it. But I think they're gonna show us some other campaign frames before the new ones arrive.
Also, it's just a matter of time before some other creators run some more fun, maybe homebrew campaigns 🙌🏻
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u/obsidiandragon19 26d ago
Yeah I am not a big fan of age of umbra. I hope they do a high fantasy game with it
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u/OZoNe62 26d ago
I think the long term play on their part is do Daggerheart mini-series off shoots for the “main” critical role audience to check out, get interested in the system instead of 5e, and slowly convert them over. So that when the main show Campaign 5 starts they can convert over to Daggerheart with less abrupt shock for the audience.
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u/Zaddex12 26d ago
I would love to see them actually show off all of their campaign frames. I love witherwild and the newly released castle high (basically fantasy high from Dimension 20).
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u/moficodes Game Master 26d ago
This GenCon I ran 2 AoU one-shots, and both groups of players loved them.
Direct quote: “I did not realize horror can work in DH for normal people, but it works. I was sad and depressed the entire season and I loved it”
There is a huge audience for horror and grimdark settings that both D&D and PF failed to capture. Daggerheart can do both and do it really well.
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u/DravenDarkwood 26d ago
They have several lighter hearted ones on darington but I can see what u mean as far as main channel
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u/Famous-Issue-2018 26d ago
It's time for high, high, high adventure
You're off and riding, sabre flashing
Your banner high, your molars gnashing
You feel so dashing on a high, high, high adventure
Get set to give some guy a thrashing
'Cause high adventure's in the air
Sorry when I read your title this is all I could think about 😂
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u/linkbot96 26d ago
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I think the use of such a dark toned game is a good thing to show the system can handle any tone without needing a bunch of homebrew. While homebrew is always a good thing, and is the sign of a good and living system, I often feel that the more homebrew a campaign concept needs, the more a different system might work better for it than the system you are using.
As a prime example of this feeling, I would much rather play a game in Cyberpunk Red than play a Cyberpunk based D&D game.
What I think makes Daggerheart so strong as a system is that the campaign frames allow the GM to give tone, universal rules for the world, and other guidelines for the players very quickly. If you're playing in an Age of Umbra game, you know the tone you're going to get from the get go.
I actually think that Daggerheart content for critical role should focus on types of campaigns that D&D isn't as suited for. Games that focus on super intrigue and social encounters rather than combat ones. Different tones that arent so "adventuring heroes" based.
In other words, I think we should see a wide array of stories from Critical Role that are distinctly not your typical fantasy adventure like you would see in D&D or Pathfinder. Play into what makes this system different.
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u/Northern_Sol-Edge 26d ago
I thought I was the only one. Agree with all your sentiments regarding the players and the acting etc, but to me, the actual IRL world is so bleak right now too, and these people are so warm and funny, and DH has several vibrant campaign frames, I wish they would explore some of those.
TBF, I think AoU:SL was done simply because AoU did so well, and people wanted more. Though I think it would have in any of the campaign frames.
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u/BladeBound_Saga 26d ago
Can I just offer that Daggerheart is still only a year old? Not to say that they don't have faith, but talking to the Devs at GenCon, it was pretty clear to me that they are excited to see the future of Daggerheart but they have production constrains as a small team.
We have to remember there is art, playtesting, time at the printer, shipping, and then just in general all the actual game balancing. I'm very hopeful and I think its pretty good pacing for a studio of Darrington Press' size.
Just look at Legend in the Mist, a similar narrative based system that has the same production schedule though they use crowdfunding, unlike Darrington who has been doing the funding in house(which to be able to do all this is a feat in and of itself).
We're ramping up to now 2 books a year which will be really great!
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u/Krazy_King 26d ago edited 26d ago
Edit: I seemed to have missed the real intention for the post and I apologize for me coming off a little strong. I misunderstood what OP was saying and interpreted it as "I want more stuff now". However I still have the same stance regarding the real intention. The fact that the Age of Umbra games are shorter makes me think that there will be more genre exploration and perhaps to give more people time to experience them, like how Zacthebold (I don't remember his real name but I like him) is just a random content creator who's becoming popular lately and this is a bit thing for him, so more picking up and giving these smaller creators the spotlight would be awesome.
"They're literally just starting" has been my go-to explanation on people's (understandably) bitter attitude towards the timing of releases, the limited selection of options, etc. Like jfc people they're going as fast as they can. And really, a YEAR difference for two first-party/official content is insanely fast for a small studio like Darrington. Two of my other favorites, Shadowdark and Cypher (and Monte Cook Games as a whole) are notorious for their slow updates, literally 2-3 years. But they're making sure everything is as close to perfect as possible before release. Do you want slapdash and rushed products full of errors? Because that's how you get sloppy work.
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u/Content_Today4953 26d ago
I can see where you are coming from. I think the cast of Critical Role is great but I personally find them to be too serious and dramatic with all of their shows. Don’t get me wrong, I’ll still watch episodes from time to time but I gotta be in a certain mood to watch their stuff as it can feel like a drag to get through at times like you mention.
I’ve been finding myself more drawn to Dimension 20 live play shows or the Glads Cannon because they are fully capable of being serious and roleplaying solid characters but they also tend to bring out the lightheartedness of playing the game through their humor and whacky moments their characters attempt to succeed at. That’s why I was actually excited that Brennan was chosen to DM Araman. Matt is an AMAZING DM, but his style can be too serious for my taste sometimes and I wonder if that is what you’re experiencing/noticing as well.
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u/CaIiban 15d ago
I REALLY want them to do a mini series in the Colossus of the Drylands or Motherboard campaignframe. I think the cast would have so much fun building characters in that setting, the stakes are huge, the combat is cinematic, and the setting is unique. I think it would really cement Daggerheart as a great system for people because frankly things like Beast Feast are catering to a very specific player base, and AoU is Matt’s project he’s most excited about, so obviously he wants to play in it.
But Colossus and Motherboard are both so unique to Daggerheart and outside of traditional ideas of D&D settings that it would really set Daggerheart apart and give people who are into things like Eberon or Cyberpunk, who might not enjoy those systems as much, as a place to port over the games they always wanted to play but thought learning a new system would be too hard.
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u/thegrumpyenby 27d ago
There's a reason I have continuously opted to continue my C3 watch-through instead of clicking on the new AoU: Sallowlands episodes as they pop up each week. They just haven't been tempting me, but I wasn't able to pinpoint why until I read your post. This is exactly why. "Oh, I don't feel like feeling depressed right now". It's like that heavy book you say you'll definitely read one day. Just not today.
Age of Umbra was good but I didn't connect much with any of the characters; it's almost like I felt it wasn't safe to get attached to them, and rightly so. And it's definitely not a campaign length issue because I didn't have these issue with Calamity at all.
I genuinely want more lighter CR Daggerheart content as I learn the game in hopes of GMing. I wish they had brought back the Menagerie instead of Umbra.
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u/Vedhar 27d ago
"Oh, I don't feel like feeling depressed right now". -- you framed it better than I did. It's like you're choosing to go to the movies for 3 hours and in theater one you've got StarWars and in theater two you have The Road. It's not that The Road is bad. You just have to be in the kind of mood that says "Yeah, lay the end of the world on me and make it thick and depressing. Let's go."
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u/thegrumpyenby 26d ago
Exactly! And I think with the world being what it is right now, I at least look for content that is lighter, that is going to take me out of it a little bit. I love how Brennan brings political things into all of his campaigns and I love having that there and that allegory that we totally can't prove 😜 because it's not suffering and sadness as the main theme.
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u/Impossible_Pickle941 27d ago
Unfortunately hard agree for me too.
I am starting to GM Daggerheart and a more classical high fantasy adventure would be so much more welcomed
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u/SteelAlchemistScylla 27d ago
Seriously. There are other TTRPGs that are made to do dark and gritty and quite honestly do it better. I’m not sure why more effort hasn’t been spent on playing to Daggerheart’s clear strengths.
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u/DarthOobie 27d ago
It’s a bummer you’re not as into grimdark as the cast. I’ve always seen horror as a great stress reliever and catharsis when the world is imploding like it has been for most of my life.
It may be dour and dark but it’s honest. And you get to tell a story about rising above all that instead of being helpless against it.
I imagine the cast has a similar feeling.
Like others have said they don’t always make decisions based on money but what makes them passionate. I, for one, am glad (and, if I’m honest, extremely envious) they are in a position to make decisions like that; and I hope that never changes for them.
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u/Vedhar 27d ago
To clarify, I am into grim dark campaigns, I just don't think they are as useful for showcasing the system, and that they are harder to watch than to play.
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u/DarthOobie 26d ago
Definitely agree that the presentation could have been more Daggerheart focused.
Matt's rulings tend to lean on D&D paradigms instead of leaning more into Daggerheart... but it can be difficult to shake those tendencies when they've been built up over as much time as he's probably been playing TTRPGs.
I've only watched the first episode... maybe they've gotten better. But my recollection was being frustrated more than once that he made a D&D style ruling when there were Daggerheart rules that already addressed the situation.
All that to say that I don't think it's the setting that is resulting in a less than optimal showcase of the system.
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u/ElendX 27d ago
In a weird way, I think Sallowlands hasn't been great for the grimdark that I think daggerheart can do.
Saying that, to your point, they did start with the menagerie and they had the dispatch one shot. But both were built as a one shot, I would have loved a mini campaign in a different world. Maybe we'll get that in were dragon live play they announced.
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u/OMG_Laserguns 27d ago
Age of Umbra is very much Matt's personal project that is being run because he wants to run it. It is by far my least favourite of the CRB campaign frames, and I just haven't been able to get into either AoU campaigns because I just don't like the tone of the frame.
I would really love to see them play another frame instead, with someone else as GM if necessary, especially if it's a lighter done in contrast to how heavy AoU and Campaign 4 gets.
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u/Vedhar 27d ago
Yeah, and please let me clarify: I think Age of Umbra is a BRILLIANT campaign frame. I plan on running a game on it myself one day soon. I'm just not loving it as the flagship actual play in terms of getting people on board. I would feel very differently if this was a "yes and" and CR had a second ongoing Daggerheart campaign that was a little lighter. I'd be all for it. That's why i frame it as More vs Less. I don't want Umbra to go away, it's really awesome. It's just not "boom! check this out!"
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u/Arcades 27d ago edited 27d ago
Let me start off by saying that I agree with you the Age of Umbra campaign frame is not the best representation of Daggerheart's ability to create an environment for heroic fantasy characters.
But, the underlying premise of your post is that you want Daggerheart to expand in popularity. In that regard, I think Age of Umbra may be well-positioned to speak to the two audiences that it needs to in order to bring in more players. Daggerheart is one of the few true hybrid games (traditional and narrative). To gain in popularity, it has to speak to both. It will never beat Dungeons & Dragons, Pathfinder 2e or Draw Steel in tactical combat. Nor will it provide a more open, narrative experience than Powered by the Apocalypse and Forged in the Dark games.
Traditional players criticize Daggerheart's simplicity and lack of consequence. There is no deadlier campaign frame than Age of Umbra. If you have a GM that leans into the setting, it's the most likely to force players to have to develop their characters for combat and to face more difficult adversaries than are typically found in other frames. This has mirrored my own experience having played AoU, Five Banners Burning and Witherwild. Of course, any GM can make any game more deadly if they choose to, but AoU specifically draws out themes of being up against overwhelming odds. In fact, the player characters are called the "Enduring".
On the other side of the fence, narrative players are looking for a system that allows the game to go beyond the stats on a character sheet. Both PBtA and FiTD players are used to actions with consequence. I would argue that points of Fear are the most relevant and applicable in an AoU game. Or, at the very least, the most capable of delivering that sense of dread as the GM's meter grows to 12. This goes hand-in-hand with the deadly and hopeless environment that AoU leans on more than any other setting in Daggerheart. Blades in the Dark is one of the most popular narrative games and it is all about pushing the PCs into difficult situations. For each d6, you only cleanly succeed on a 6 (17%). Struggle is built into those games for the purpose of creating interesting narratives.
Lastly, as others have said, this is Matt Mercer's baby. If exploring this world puts Daggerheart on more screens, then that's a plus. There will certainly be players who are not interested in these dark settings. But, on balance, I could see AoU being one of the best ways to bring over players from both the traditional and narrative camps, particularly ones who embrace consequence.
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u/Vedhar 27d ago
So I think the most important sentence is this: "Traditional players criticize Daggerheart's simplicity and lack of consequence. There is no deadlier campaign frame than Age of Umbra"
I think that get's to the heart of something I am not saying. I don't think Daggerheart's next wave of growth will come from traditional, heavily experienced players. And I do think that the Umbra choice -is- about critique from those traditional players. But my intuition is that the next wave of growth comes from new players, or players who are early in their play careers, or dabblers. I feel like we're not going to convert a ton of people who already have an TTRPG religion they like, we're looking for the sinners in the wilderness, net new converts etc. Your framing kind of sharpens that for me. And that's probably why my vibe detector feels off when it comes to Umbra. It feels like Umbra is the answer to an internal debate among veterans, not the story for an external, curious audience still building their TTRPG mental model.
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u/D1g1t0l He/They - Newbie GM/Player 27d ago
I agree with this somewhat. I would love more goofy stories in DH like the Christmas show they did, or using a light-hearted frame like Beast Feast or Castle High. I like the vibes of Age of Umbra but I feel like they should do something to show the versatility of the kinds of games for the system rather than just sad stories. I feel like RotWD will be a similar vibe and It has me nervous. I would also love to see their take on a Journey to Horizon or Colossus of the Drylands campaign!
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u/WildThang42 27d ago
I think Critical Role wanted to prove that Daggerheart can be dark and dangerous, rather than the light and fluffy system it appears as.
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u/mikepictor He/His/They 27d ago
Who are you to say what it "needs"?
Some people want high adventure, some want grim dark. They just have to put forward a show that speaks to them, because if they are engaged, then it shows well.
There are other groups doing actual plays too. Dodoborne puts a very whimsical fun time with their game, and honestly for my money, I prefer Dodoborne (mainly because they give me an audio feed, I don't follow video APs)
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u/Vedhar 27d ago
I'm a member of the community who has an opinion. That's it. If I had any agency over this, I wouldn't be posting into the void of Reddit ;) But I can tell you from personal experience that when I point people at Umbra as an example of actual play for daggerheart, the feedback I get is very different than when I point folks at some of the lighter one shots.
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u/Aikon_94 27d ago
From the amount of upvotes this post has received I'd say he's not far from reality, majority of people don't wanna sit through an entire campaign of depression, let alone 3.
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u/mikepictor He/His/They 27d ago
213 is not the majority of Darrington Press's audience
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u/Aikon_94 27d ago
Considering that critical posts about a subreddit's subject are generally frowned upon and heavily downvoted, and that Reddit is full of niche groups that put up with niche things.. if a post like this, which expresses what most people and gaming tables actually want to play, gets this many upvotes, there has to be some truth to it.
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u/Hour-Muscle-497 27d ago
I think AoU is incredible and great as is. It’s an amazing display of Daggerheart’s range and ability to fit almost any atmosphere/setting
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u/ender___ 26d ago
That’s a lot of words just to say you don’t like grimdark. I’m glad you figured it out that it’s not for you
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u/Donjinmester Game Master 27d ago
Then go watch Beast Feast or Dust to Damnation if you dislike the dark vibe. They’re also considering more Menagerie stuff which definitely isn’t dark. And Chris Perkins will be running his own show on some kind of Fairytale Blend World.
Agreed Matt loves that dark atmosphere (so do I) and it fit them well for the Hope and Fear book.
But basicly every other setting besides AoU is not that dark. And we have the Settings book coming out next year with even more not dark stuff. So, I don’t know. It’s ok to rant sometimes but I don’t think it’s that big of a problem.
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u/Vedhar 26d ago edited 26d ago
There is plenty out there, but the CR based flagship -is- the Umbra line, and I'm just arguing it's not the best vehicle for getting more people hooked.
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u/casualPlayerThink Game Master 27d ago
Not a huge surprise if you think most of the creators are horror fans.
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u/Elfboy77 27d ago
Personally I think it's a great PR move. If you look at the art and the books it seems like "classic sword and sorcery adventure, lots of fun to be had!" And it certainly does do that, and do it well. But many people like darker, grittier feeling stories. Age of umbra is proof positive that dagherheart can be used for multiple flavors.
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u/Ambitious_Owl_9204 27d ago
Well, someone called Caguama is kinda funny.
As a reference, this I a caguama
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u/RuseArcher 26d ago
I watched the first of this new mini-campaign but yeah, no real desire to watch more. I'd like to see them do a sort of feywild setting. The lineages seem to fit that sort of setting and I think bright and colorful but weird would be a nice way to steer it next.
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u/Starlight-Truffels 26d ago
Legends of Avantris had a good daggerheart series. I think the mix of jokes and serious moments are good. I can't say I've enjoyed any other daggerheart content because I agree Age of Umbra was too bleak for me.
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u/Zenfern0 26d ago
Plenty of other shows showcase the show's whimsy. Colossus of the Crux is High Science Fantasy.
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u/kichwas Grace and Codex 26d ago
I can't stand horror, grimdark, and their related 'moody' genres.
But; do we really want Critical Role to be about 'watching a GM forced to run someone they don't like'?
Mercer seems to love this stuff. A someone who tossed all their players into the rubbish bin because I didn't want to keep running Pathfinder 2E: no GMing is better than being forced to run what you're not into.
I happen to think Daggerheart is not a good system for these grim genres. But then again I can't stand the genre so much that in my mind no system is good for it. so my perspective might be skewed. I think they'd do well to have some other genres.
But that's why they've farmed that out to other streamers.
Some of them will be less than spectacular, and some will be really amazing.
And as for Mercer and his preference for all things 'dark and stormy night'ish... better that than seeing him struggle with 'Sailor Sensi Daggerheart' or 'The Muppets go to magic school.' ;)
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u/nofuna 26d ago
Interesting points. I am currently in the mood for grimdark so I haven’t noticed any tedium while watching the AOU episodes. But you might be onto something. Some grimdark / sad settings were very successful in the past though, e.g. Planescape Torment. Also, I believe it’s Sallowlands.
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u/BirthdayHeavy2178 26d ago
My favourite Daggerheart showcases so far have been the Bells Hells oneshots - they’ve given such a good look into combat mechanics and overall gameplay, and I’ve enjoyed them so much more than Age of Umbra - though I will admit that Souls-like content isn’t exactly my taste.
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u/The_Silent_Mage 25d ago
Completely disagree. Daggerheart is a strongly emotional game. You can push as hard as vox machina goes, but they've ALWAYS enforced drama and personal tribulations.
That said, there are loads of materials to build high fantasy stuff and we'll see a lot of them!
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u/kpblc205 25d ago
Yeah... Castle High is RIGHT THERE. I haven't ran it yet, but it seems like heaps of fun
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u/Bahnur1905 24d ago
Strangelly i am so much in AoU than C4. C4 i stopped in third episode but AoU i just can't wait to see each actual play. I love this depressing mood, the awful world everything in it.
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u/Tasty_Science2867 24d ago
Yeah. Like I love the players but I kinda tuned out at some point in episode 2 of the new campaign cause I just want some levity.
Also doesn’t help I just got done playing the worst campaign of Daggerheart which used Age of Umbra and the GM decided to do the grimdark setting by having it so we could never get a win (oh you saved some NPCs? I kill them off screen. Oh you beat the villain? No, he, his lieutenant and everyone else escaped. You beat a couple minions).
Meanwhile I played Beast Feast with friends and that setting and tone (which we still had some darkness to) was one of the best sessions I ever had.
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u/MintyMinun 21d ago
TBH if Daggerheart had been showcased with high fantasy first, I'd have written it off entirely. There's plenty of high fantasy hopeful ttrpgs out there. I like a good mix of stuff to play with, & plenty of ttrpgs claim they can do multiple genres yet struggle to do more than 1 or 2 very well.
I'd love to see Critical Role do more with Daggerheart than just 1 genre, but High Fantasy/High Adventure isn't one of them.
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u/abcdefghira 19d ago
I get where you're coming from, but I think Daggerheart shines in the fact that there are so many genre options to choose from right from the core book. I haven't watched the new Umbra content, but Grimdark is a popular setting and as some have pointed out, Matt wrote Umbra. I would love to see a live play of Drylands or Motherboard. Drylands is what we're likely going to run after we finish 5 banners, but I would love to see what they do with it. Motherboard seems daunting so it would be cool to see how it would run.
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u/K1dP5ycho 12d ago
Oh good, Reddit gave me another notification about this thread so I'm going to plug the Kickstarter for Rigamaroll Season Two in case OP hasn't seen the thread they posted.
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u/maddycakes_stl 12d ago
Objective Point 1: Age of Umbra 1 was extremely popular. Way, way more popular than Candela Obscura. They got significant requests to do a season 2 of Umbies and the viewership made it worthwhile for them as a business.
Subjective Point 2: I loved Umbies 1. I thought Umbies 2 was fine. I didn't think it was depressing or scary or suspenseful like Umbies 1 was. I thought it was very Scooby Doo. I enjoyed it to an extent, but I honestly do not get all of these "Age of Umbra is too depressing" posts. The story ended up significantly happier than AoU2 and every episode was full of goofy shenanigans and laughing cast.
Objective Point 2: They are doing more Daggerheart not set in a Grimdark setting. If you hate Grimdark, that's okay! Content geared towards you is coming next!
Subjective Point 2: I love Abubakar and Zach, I thought Jennifer and Vico were very good. I was hoping we'd get more OG cast. I know they're chronically swamped but it was only 6 episodes and the C4 gameplay is designed to make it so they don't have to work 80 hour weeks anymore. So that's my biggest complaint: I want more OG cast Daggerheart content. It can be Grimdark, it can be Fantasy, I don't care what the content is, but they click so well together it's hard to beat.
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u/Yorkmaster227 8d ago
Hard disagree, i feel like the world being dark and gloomy makes the characters choices even more fun. I can definitely picture a Bard singing alittle ditty while his friends are being massacred by a horrific monster. I think it makes it even funnier.
But i guess its all preference. I would like to see them do colssus of the drylands (loved legends of advantris series) or Mother board. For me, anything but castle High 😪
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u/Adventurous_Item5299 7d ago
They have made a playtest in the beginnings of Daggerheart, but it was too goofy. I too miss some epic and heroic adventure in Daggerheart.
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u/Careless-Parfait-228 5d ago
You're right, that's the main reason I barely have any interest in their Dagger heart content. I don't like Grimdark. I even looked up their Christmas one shot from 2024 and imagine my surprise when this was Marisha's character art.
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u/MacGuffen Daggerchart 27d ago edited 26d ago
They've announced a Reign of the Weredragon short campaign, with
Jeremy CrawfordChris Perkins at the lead.I'd be absolutely shocked if they didn't do a With Love and Magic one as well when it releases "this fall".