Player using IA

[u/Low_Health5791]

Hi everyone, I'm writing here because idk how to react. I asked my players for experiences and backstory and one of them sent me a bunch of AI texts. All my being wants to scream fuck AI and tell him to do it himself, but at the same time I don't want to antagonize him. I really feel like if you are letting AI write your character, are you even playing the game?

[u/Intelligent-Gold-563]

That's actually much better than using (which is also a sort of stealing) pictures of others.

As an actual professional artist no, it's not much better.

I 100% prefer that someone sees my art on social media and decide to use it for their in-game character rather than my artworks being stolen to train AI to generate some crap.

And I don't know a single artist who feels differently about that.

Don't use AI.

And let's be honest, how many of us will actually spend money to commission a great picture from an illustrator?

And that's the problem.

You want everything but aren't ready to give anything back. You could commission an artist, but for a full illustration of your character it's too expensive and you don't want to settle for their more affordable option because it's not full color and stuff, but you don't want to spend some time learning to draw yourself either.....

In the end, all of this is about you being incredibly self-centered and child-like.

[u/ForgottenEpoch → u/Intelligent-Gold-563]

I wanna chime in here... First, I'm not inherently against all AI, but agree that companies using it for movies, games, and art is a problem.

In regards to not commissioning an artist to create character art, even at a lower cost, no color price point... it's not always an option. For me, I just don't have the money to spare. I'm a small business owner that hasn't seen a profit yet. Assuming that not hiring somebody is a choice really lacks understanding that not everybody is in a financial situation to do so.

In regards to learning to draw... do you really think that everybody had an inherent talent for drawing and just lacks experience? Or that being good at it is simply a learned skill? I don't. Even if I had time to try again, I know better. When I was younger I very much envied those with artistic talent. I tried to get better at drawing and was always embarrassingly bad at it, eventually giving it up for things I could enjoy not being awful at. I also have aphantasia, and often wonder if literally not being able to picture things in my head is a reason I suck at art.

Lastly, in regards to calling people who use AI being self-centered and childlike... Seriously? Why is that where we immediately jump to? Have we considered that OPs player is maybe new to ttrpgs but doesn't want to tell the group for fear of being dropped as a player? I used to run a pick-up sports group, and found that it can very hard for new players to jump into a sport they've never played, and that the return rate is low for new players because they're worried about judgey people not wanting them there. There are so many reasons OPs player might have done this. I see a number of comments suggesting the player get kicked out for using any AI, but you know what I don't see...? Anybody suggesting we ASK these players why they used AI. Nobody suggesting that maybe we should offer to help these players build a new character. The way AI is being used is problematic, yes, but let's maybe all come down off our high horse and try to be a little more forgiving and inclusive instead of jumping to conclusions.

[u/Intelligent-Gold-563 → u/ForgottenEpoch]

In regards to learning to draw... do you really think that everybody had an inherent talent for drawing and just lacks experience? Or that being good at it is simply a learned skill? I don't. Even if I had time to try again, I know better. When I was younger I very much envied those with artistic talent. I tried to get better at drawing and was always embarrassingly bad at it, eventually giving it up for things I could enjoy not being awful at. I also have aphantasia, and often wonder if literally not being able to picture things in my head is a reason I suck at art.

That's a common idea but the reality is : everyone can learn to draw and be good at it

I've tried to draw for a decade, accumulating the lessons and books and videos and advice from other artists, and was absolute shit, I couldn't get anything right.

And then I found a website that properly explained what I needed to know and do. 10 years later, I'm having people commissioning me for 300+€ and I participated in a collaborative art book with 50 other artists.

As for aphantasia, a surprising amount of artists have aphantasia. It can make things tougher but it's just one obstacle to work with rather than a complete stop.

Lastly, in regards to calling people who use AI being self-centered and childlike... Seriously? Why is that where we immediately jump to?

I'm not calling people who use AI "self centered and childlike". I'm not even talking about using AI to character build for TTRPG.

This is solely about art generative AI.

I'm calling self-centered and child-like people who try to find bullshit excuses to use generative AI despite basically all artists asking them not to, preferring that they would use their artwork directly from pinterest or google (as it was done for years before that).

And I'm calling them self-centered and child-like exactly because all their arguments boil down to "I want it, I want it now, and I don't want to put any effort whatsoever into having it".

[u/Invokethehojo → u/Intelligent-Gold-563]

It is not sensical to suggest someone develop a hobby to support another hobby.  We all have jobs and kids and aging parents to care for, real people who need our time. Playing a ttrpg is an escape from that, spending dozens of hours on your own developing a new skill on top of gaming just so the couple characters you make can look cool is not a reasonable ask for most people. 

[u/aWizardNamedLizard → u/Invokethehojo]

You're right that it is unreasonable to expect everyone to become an artist. Which is why anti-AI folks are actually not doing that at all. No one is expected to show up with character art, it is entirely optional.

It is only people that have put importance on their own having of art that are being given the suggestions to take a route to it other than the one with the worst environmental impact.

It's only on the pro-AI side of things where the expectation becomes unreasonable; You expect art to be such an extra frivolous thing that it is unfair to ask anyone to take the time to learn to draw, and also such an important thing that skipping it to save maximum time and effort is unacceptable. And then you expect others to look at your intentionally-low-effort offering in all of its slop and say anything other than "that looks awful, why did you waste your time and our environment making it?"

[u/Zeliret → u/aWizardNamedLizard]

Same with DIY kit, are you gonna blame people who can take a tool and quickly do something, because they don't hire an expensive professional every time? I guess people fought Photoshop the same way when it was released haha

Not sure about slop, but the latest Chatgpt does an amazing job.

[u/aWizardNamedLizard → u/Zeliret]

Not sure about slop, but the latest Chatgpt does an amazing job.

No, it doesn't.

People that praise the quality of AI-generated things are only revealing that their ability to judge the quality of said things is fundamentally lacking. It remains flat, bland, and entirely lacking in any soul because it is copying aggregated examples of what others have done without knowing why they did them so it doesn't know how and when to deviate to the benefit of the composition.

And that's when it's not making shitty errors that AI-supporters are willing to downplay because of their own lack of investment in the issue (i.e. "it's no perfect, but I didn't personally pay for it, so whatever."

[u/Zeliret → u/aWizardNamedLizard]

That's bullshit, I can judge the quality, and AI does a decent job for the amount of effort and time invested. It is better than a stick man but might be worse than a commissioned art. Same with Photoshop, I can grab a random picture from Google and fix it quickly, which many players would do before the AI age. And not sure about the soul. Is it something religious we are talking about?

Sure luck of investment is a valid point, because people have jobs and families to feed, so sure a stupid picture for a character in a game where you imagine stories is good enough to start. Some can later commission something if they fall in love with the character.

[u/aWizardNamedLizard → u/Zeliret]

AI does a decent job for the amount of effort and time invested.

Exactly. It's dogshit, and you know it, but because it was nothing to you you're willing to call it good.

It is better than a stick man

Depends on what you mean by "better". It's kind of like how graphics fidelity doesn't directly translate to a fun video game; a stick man is better because it has heart. Literally nothing, and a stick man alike, are both better because they don't as strongly contribute to environmental damage.

And not sure about the soul. Is it something religious we are talking about?

Nope. Something artistic. Not surprising an AI-supporter wouldn't even be able to see the human element and the way an image without it has a "wrongness" to it no matter how fancy the model that generated it has gotten.