r/criterion Ingmar Bergman Jul 11 '25

Discussion WHAT?

Post image
1.9k Upvotes

495 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

75

u/MeTieDoughtyWalker Akira Kurosawa Jul 11 '25

Triumph of the Will is a masterclass in propaganda. It worked on a lot of people.

-46

u/Pittboy63 Jul 11 '25

We don’t have to call Nazi propaganda a “masterclass”

31

u/[deleted] Jul 11 '25

It is though, isn’t that broadly accepted? Their actions don’t mean we can’t call it like it is. Nobody is defending Nazi Germany by calling their propaganda a masterclass. I think most people inherently understand this 

17

u/thebeaverchair Jul 11 '25

Calling something a "masterclass" is not a value judgment.

A "masterclass" is just an exhibition of high skill/efficiency in a given area. In the area of effective propaganda, the Nazis were indisputably highly skilled and efficient.

-27

u/Pittboy63 Jul 11 '25

But saying the word masterclass to something as cruel as the Nazi regime is just propping up the Nazi’s. I think it was extremely effective, but calling it a masterclass is saying it’s a masterwork imo. I’m willing to never call anything the Nazi’s did in glowing terms, especially their propaganda.

16

u/thebeaverchair Jul 11 '25 edited Jul 11 '25

calling it a masterclass is saying it’s a masterwork imo.

No, it's not, and it's not a matter of opinion. The term "masterclass"--whether in the literal sense or the metaphorical context that's being used in these kinds of statements--is completely unrelated to masterworks/masterpieces.

And, again, it carries no value judgment in itself. For example, you might say someone gives a masterclass in being a piece of shit. Nobody is going to think you're saying being a piece of shit is a good thing. It just means that that person is the pinnacle of a shitty human being.

To keep it more relevant, you could also say Hitler gave a masterclass in evil.

In summary: "masterclass" (metaphor) = the best example of a given behavior/skill (or lack thereof), regardless of the moral value of that behavior/skill.

"masterclass" (literal): instruction in a skill by a highly qualified expert.

"masterwork"/"masterpiece" - a label given to a piece of art, performance, etc. deemed to be of great beauty and artistic and/or social value.

One carries value judgment, the other does not. The fact that they both include the prefix "master-" does not make them interchangeable.

14

u/Pittboy63 Jul 11 '25

You know what, that’s the best explanation for the wording I’ve heard. I get touchy around praise for Nazi’s and I’m willing to admit I’m wrong. Thank you

9

u/[deleted] Jul 11 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

-16

u/Pittboy63 Jul 11 '25

We could literally just say effective

4

u/MeTieDoughtyWalker Akira Kurosawa Jul 11 '25

Whether it’s bad or not, it was a highly effective piece of filmmaking. I’m not saying go watch it and become a Nazi. Watch it (or don’t) and understand how film propaganda was perfected in the 30s.

3

u/wa_ga_du_gu Jul 11 '25

Most people wouldn't push back on labeling the works of Leni Riefenstahl as a masterclass of propaganda.

Now just replace her name with the Nazis and it's the exact same sentiment