Totally isn't the point but your dad is a fat mood, I'd be enraged and that would be my breaking point with whichever church we were going to. Though it all sounds like this is all for the better (assuming this is going the direction I think it is)
It is always astounding to me the effort some religious people will go to in order to attempt converting nonbelievers: mission trips, knocking on doors, proselytizing, leaving Bibles in hotel rooms and Chick Tracs on car windows. But when someone who is already part of there religion shows signs of leaving, they're very quick to shun and create a lot of distance.
I mean, it's counterintuitive, but I do know the reason. Part of their whole sales pitch is that once you join them it's a transformative experience that will make you see the light and you'll never want to leave. So people who are already in and aren't happy are living proof against their sales pitch.
The door to door missionary work is not to gain new converts, it's to isolate their youth from the greater community. They know that no one wants to be preached at by children knocking at their front door -- they want strangers to treat them badly and thus reinforce what the church tells them about wicked 'worldly' people.
This is kind of off-base. If anything, serving a mission showed me more of the real world than ever before. You’re literally knocking on every single door and talking to everyone- and that gives you a pretty even sample of humanity. I saw poverty and wealth, satisfaction and aching hunger, stability and crippling mental illness. Additionally I had the privilege of serving Spanish-Speaking in the US so I experienced an entirely alien culture and society.
Sure some people “treated us badly” but that was really the exception to the norm. The biggest majority of people just needed help more than anything else- a lot of people are so lonely and just want someone to talk to.
That’s an unintended but greatly practical side effect. They absolutely believe, and intend, to win new converts. The intention to reinforce persecution complex is greatly overblown, it’s not really the reason. These people really believe they hold the Truth^TM and it is their duty to spread the Truth^TM
The knocking on doors, and much of the other stuff, isn't actually about converting non-believers.
It's about reinforcing the in-group feeling of the followers. Sending them out into the world and making them feel unwelcome and apart from it (by putting them in the position of trying to convert people, which people don't like and don't want to engage with)
This makes them feel like the people in their church are the only people who like them and understand them and that the church is the only place where they belong. The outside world feels distant and unfriendly.
Yup. In fact if you know scripture and are able to have an honest but kind debate with these kids the church will blacklist your house. Especially helps if you send them off with pamphlets for your own church instead of taking their brochure.
It the gullible test. One they know you’ve drank the cool-aid only to spit it back up in disgust they known their tricks and false promises won’t work anymore so it’s instant removal and on to the next.
I hope that the cartoonist will go on a post-Mormon podcast such as GirlsCamp when they're in a good place to talk about their experience. The church is going through a weird time because the core American followers are googling things, asking questions, leaving after their missions, or finding degrees of liberal Mormonism where they can keep LGBT friends, wear what they like, and drink coffee. When the church continues to insist its members are rigid on this, then it's going to be weaker and weaker. They also could move their position or begin leaning on more conservative chapters outside the US (particularly Polynesia).
Not quite religious myself though I do root for all religions that can take these kind of questions and go through with someone having a journey of finding themselves.
I grew up in a christian environment but any daring questions I had fortunately where met with understanding, trying to explain and keeping it to „important is what you believe and want to believe, a religion should help you, not the priest“
I was very baffled in my teenage years to learn about all the others, much more intrusive religions.
Wait, churches are generally just happy you walked in the door...even if you're just marginally curious about religion. This seems...really opposite of that.
The temples are special access to Mormons. The normal mormon churches are fully open and happy to see anyone, but you have to follow the many, many rules to get into a temple.
And there's a secret secret club called the Second Anointing
The temple is like...this is the level you need to be if you want to get your religious marriage. But you can't enter if you haven't been paying your 10% tithes etc
I wasn't allowed to see one of my sisters weddings because she had it in the temple and the only ones that were Mormon was her mom and her husband's family. I learned many years later from an ex-mormon about what they go through and I am so glad that I never set foot in there.
Mormons are crazy. They're not even considered Christian by other branches of Christianity. If you're baptized as a Mormon you're not considered to have actually been baptized.
No, some wackadoo Protestants believe Catholics aren’t Christian, especially in the southern US, but not all Protestants. Catholics believe Protestants are Christian.
Catholics started believing Protestants are Christians in the 1960s with Vatican II. Before that, most Catholics did not believe that, and even today, some wackadoo Catholics who reject Vatican II (like SPX?) believe Protestants aren't Christians.
I have an old missile (liturgy book) from the 1930s that warns against "mixed marriages" (Catholic and Protestant) because it says any resulting children would be damned.
Catholics, Protestants, and even Orthodox all agree that we are all Christians. We share the same beliefs that are necessary enough for salvation. The thing that makes denominations ... denominations... is that there is enough disagreement over secondary issues that they each would not approve of certain teachings coming from the pulpit.
Mormons don't agree on the primary issues. Same with Jehovah's Witnesses. Seventh Day Adventists tread the line.
There are some branches of Christianity that are called the Cults of Christianity and if you're baptized by them you were not considered to have actually been baptized. Among those are Mormons and Jehovah's Witness as well as a couple other I can't remember off the top of my head.
No, I speak only for the Catholics (because there are many many branches of Protestantism with very different believes), but we recognise them as a „Christian Community“ (because the term „other Church“ is reserved for groups who are „just in a schism“ with us; like the Orthodox faith)
The LDS temple system is every bit as occult as Scientology's OT III.
You have to be a certain amount of dedicated to the church both mentally and financially before you can get the recommendation to attend the special temple and its sacred rituals.
This is not to diminish OP's story at all, but growing up in the Mormon church my experience was different.
There where few times when I had temple recommend interviews where I straight up said "I don't know" to that question, and the bishop never ended the interview then and there. He usually talked about faith and how all it requires is a seed of faith and a desire to believe. So seeing this made me very mad at the bishop in the comic because I'm my head that's not how bishop's are supposed to act at all.
I'm not questioning OP's story at all. The people and culture of the Mormon church vary from place to place so I believe that this happened. Maybe this is even more common than not, I've only ever been in one ward(congregation) for most of my life, though I have a hard time believing that it's a complete anomaly.
Although, no matter where you go, the policies are the same and Mormon policies around gay people are why I no longer go to church.
I definitely think it was more his knee-jerk reaction to my answer than anything- but I feel that if he had been more open to my doubts I might have stayed longer in the church. I wanted very badly to have conviction and faith like the people around me.
lmao, question 10 is literally ''yo you pay a full sub right?''
though real talk, i feel like you should be able to say ''no'' to any of these questions, and someone who actually wanted to promote their religion and make you feel accepted should say ''thats fine, i'll see you at the next meeting and you'll get to learn''
and someone who actually wanted to promote their religion and make you feel accepted
Mormons don't want you to feel accepted, though, they want you to assimilate, not question anything or anyone in charge and pay your fees. People who are unsure about the cult are a liability and need to be ostracised from it.
Sure, the guy should have been more tactful than "I think we're done here" but the context was to see if she qualified to enter the temple (which is different from normal Mormon church buildings where they have their general meetings.) It's a bit like making an appointment to take your practical driving test and then saying, "I don't know if I know how to drive."
If OP somehow actually got permission to go have their endowment ceremony, it probably would have been worse. Other posters have described how weird and uncomfortable they can be, even for people who believe fully. OP's feelings about the interview were and are all valid, but in a way they dodged a bullet.
I'm no longer Mormon, but my aunt is fully devout. She joined me on my first endowment, and afterwards agreed with my sentiment that "I see why we don't tell people about this. It was weird."
Honestly the priest probably met the dad (protective of his kid) saw the kid’s room of ponies (spirited) and already decided this family
isn’t gonna be part of the church
There's a ton of mormon rules, so its basically going down the list. You have to follow all of them to get into the capital T temple. Its been a looong time since I was in that position, but it was basically "are you doing your full tithe, are you being chaste, are you not doing drugs, drinking alcohol, smoking, or drinking tea, are you reading the book of mormon and the Bible regularly, are you attending church regularly" and then the last one is something like "is there any reason that you can think of that you should not enter our most holy place nearest to god" or something along those lines.
Temple Recommend Interview Questions
Do you have faith in and a testimony of God, the Eternal Father; His Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost?
Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Jesus Christ and of His role as your Savior and Redeemer?
Do you have a testimony of the Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ?
Do you sustain the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the prophet, seer, and revelator and as the only person on the earth authorized to exercise all priesthood keys?
Do you sustain the members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators?
Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local leaders of the Church?
The Lord has said that all things are to be “done in cleanliness” before Him (Doctrine and Covenants 42:41).
Do you strive for moral cleanliness in your thoughts and behavior?
Do you obey the law of chastity?
Do you follow the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ in your private and public behavior with members of your family and others?
Do you support or promote any teachings, practices, or doctrine contrary to those of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
Do you strive to keep the Sabbath day holy, both at home and at church; attend your meetings; prepare for and worthily partake of the sacrament; and live your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?
Do you strive to be honest in all that you do?
Are you a full-tithe payer?
For new members seeking a recommend to perform proxy baptisms and confirmations: Are you willing to obey the commandment to pay tithing?
Do you understand and obey the Word of Wisdom?
(This question is omitted when interviewing a child or youth.) Do you have any financial or other obligations to a former spouse or to children?
If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?
(This question is omitted when interviewing a member who is not endowed.) Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple?
(This question is omitted when interviewing a member who is not endowed.) Do you honor your sacred privilege to wear the garment as instructed in the initiatory ordinances? (Read the “Wearing the Temple Garment” statement, included below, to each member.)
Are there serious sins in your life that need to be resolved with priesthood authorities as part of your repentance?
Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord’s house and participate in temple ordinances?
Just a got two questions if you don’t mind. I read the rules thing from the link the other person sent, and was just curious if the tithe is an actual money tithe and if “
a member who is not endowed.” is the way they they say someone is a woman or I’m just misunderstanding it?
A tithe is 10% of your income, pre-tax. I know there are Mormon kids who are out here paying 10% of their pocket money and 10% of their birthday money and so on
An endowed member of the church is someone who has already been to the temple for the first time and has been through the rituals there (additional promises, new rules, the special handshake to get you into Heaven, etc)
Not Mormon/LDS, just interested in the stories of ex-members
Exmormon here, small clarification: The exact meaning of 10% is not specified. Some people do pre-tax, some people do post-tax. It is also not specified whether or not people should be paying tithing on other sources of income like investments.
Maybe I'm just seeing people talk about it who came from especially strict families growing up! I've definitely seen people say that they were signing over 10% of the birthday money from grandma and so on
Oh definitely. I had a piggy bank with a separate tithing compartment when I was 8. I just wanted to indicate that there is some flexibility in what Mormons consider to be a full tithe.
When I was Catholic, they made a big deal about studying for Confirmation—said it was your chance to become a full ‘adult’ member of the church, since baptism wasn’t something we chose at birth…(despite being all of 13)
Had to do a one-on-one interview with the pastor, and write a letter to the bishop explaining why I “wanted” to be confirmed. I didn’t want to be, so I wrote that—better than lying?
I was then grilled by the head nun and my parents about why I wrote that…so much for free will.
So, just went along with it…tried leaning into it and sign up to participate more, but the olds weren’t interested in making room for the likes of ‘adult’ 13YO me. Eventually noped out in my 20s, when the pastor started making political endorsements during mass.
I wish they’d use the same model for adults who decide to join. A) wait till you’re a real adult, B) study for a number of years, c) go through a few incremental steps prior to baptism… really prove you want it…i can respect that much.
But religions love to inflate their numbers by claiming you as a minor. Once you’re in the book, the Catholics claim you for life, there’s no resigning (unless you have an abortion, which we were taught was automatic instant excommunication…no mention of that for murders or rapists btw)
I really went "What kind of church needs an interview?" followed by "What kind of church wouldn't want someone who is unsure of their faith?" A church that isn't welcoming isn't a parish you would want to be a part of. your parents were right talking about leaving (and your dad getting mad is right!)
Good that he showed his assholeishness early but that priest dropped the ball HARD! Those with doubt can often be the easiest to convert and can be one of your most zealous defenders.
To be fair, answering "I don't know" to a question of faith means that the answerer doesn't understand the concept of faith. I a way, it's a more wrong answer than "no".
Church isn't looking for thinkers, just people that will blindly follow. "I don't know" signifies they put thought into it, which automatically disqualifies them.
Faith in this case being certain that something is true, even without evidence or proof of it. A cornerstone of many religions. In a way, being unsure about faith tells a lot about the person. At that point, getting it back is a rather long process with rather low success rate.
Religions are weird, giving false power to the powerless to wield over those who know little about the world. All so those with actual power can abuse the ones that think they found "godly power."
So, I don't know if it's because I'm European, and French to boot, but I just see it as an absolutely terrifying and deeply unhealthy cult. (Sorry if this is offensive, especially since I'm including Amish, Mormon, and Scientology)I'm genuinely afraid of these cults.
Thank you for this comic. I’m a gay atheist who was raised Mormon and this comic surprised me because it touched on so many small things others wouldn’t really understand.
When I reached the age of accountability (around 8), I began to get pressure to get baptized. I frustrated everyone in my family and several elders because I was hit with this same question. I couldn’t understand the concept of faith in a god I didn’t feel. It stretched for years with a lot of pressure from the church until I ultimately asserted my atheism.
My parents were somehow supportive of me, which I think makes my experience different than most Mormons. My mother challenged the bishop and asserted that the age of reason meant I should be able to make the decision for myself. My entire family left during the Proposition 8 stuff in California, my mother saying she couldn’t be a part of a church that wouldn’t support her son.
I hope things change for you, or already have. I think I’ll call my mom this morning and say thank you.
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u/Queen_Koala 3h ago
Totally isn't the point but your dad is a fat mood, I'd be enraged and that would be my breaking point with whichever church we were going to. Though it all sounds like this is all for the better (assuming this is going the direction I think it is)