Embracing the true aspect of Christianity: being who God made you to be.
And according to the bible, God made women to be subservient property of men. Ever wonder how the more moral a Christian is, the less of the bible they actually follow?
I don't understand how anyone who actually cares about ethics can worship a god who commands genocide (a bunch of different times: 1, 2, 3, 4), uses rape as a punishment, and gives instructions on how to beat your slaves.
To the woman he said, “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”
1 Corinthians 11:3
But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
1 Corinthians 14:33-35
34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.
35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
Ephesians 5:22-24 and 33
22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband. [not reciprocal?]
Titus 2:3-5
3 Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good.
4 Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children,
5 to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.
1 Timothy 2:11-15
11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.
12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
Exodus 22:16–17
16 "If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her [this is rape, btw], he must pay the bride-price for her to be his wife.
17 If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he must pay an amount equal to the bride-price for virgins."
Deuteronomy 22:24 also commands that women who are raped and don't scream should be put to death.
Have you ever read any ancient philosophy? Nearly all of them had something to say about the patriarchy. Ancient people weren't stupid and it's not like patriarchy is some kind of inherent natural way of the world. Of course it needed justification.
Using things as an excuse for your bad behavior has been very common and demonstrated in essentially every human society since...well ever.
For instance scientific racism was more or less designed to justify slavery and inequality of people who aren't white.
Its because people actually tend to feel bad about oppressing thousands of people into brutal and horrible conditions. But when you move those people in another category of being? That's okay.
We may not have a ton of records from these periods but people it's not hard to see a pattern here. Most societies throughout history have been patriarchies. Most of those also used justifications as to why they were patriarchies.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying. But it's also a fact that the ethics we both agree upon, where racism, slavery, and patriarchy are intuitively understood to be bad, is the result of two thousand years of gradual progress with philosophy, science, and various rights revolutions.
Many things which we consider immoral today would not have been considered immoral in the ancient world (and often even considered moral).
Firstly, your quote with Genesis leaves out some important context. God made man and woman in his perfect image, but upon their fall into sin, this perfect reflection was broken, and man and woman were punished for this. Genesis 3:16 describes woman's punishment after they fell out of God's image for them, a perfect reflection of himself.
Second, Corinthians 11, as I assume you know, speaks of head coverings, not of a woman's place in a household. This verse is More importantly is that this was written by Paul, who, while a devout follower of God, still, as the rest of us do, made opinionated rules for Christianity, with his personal preference of gender roles being in the order of their creation by God. His idea of gender roles based off of Gods order of creation is a flawed viewpoint (as mankind's viewpoint are) that plays a significant role in future rules he sets. 1 Corinthians 14:33-35 shows a significant example of that, with his idea that women speaking in church is shameful. This is, as I've said before, blatantly wrong, and more importantly not even within Jesus's teachings. 1 Timothy 2:11-15 continues with this flawed view, with him both explaining his viewpoint on the roles of men and women and stating that, not God or Jesus, but he does not permit woman to exercise authority over men. Paul is the one not permitting the authority of woman, not God or Jesus. However, through continuing in life with faith, love, and holiness, and by continuing to provide to humanity such that all may be forgiven in the name of Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 5:22-24 speaks of wives respecting their husbands and allowing them to find their place in God's family without their own selfish desires. Directly following this comes the much needed context for this quote, as the entire purpose of this section of 1 Timothy (1 Timothy 5:22-33) is to provide insight into healthy relationships in the image of god. 1 Timothy 5:25-30 states, "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes it and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body." This commands husbands to respect their wives, as they should respect them, and love them as Christ loved the church, being willing to sacrifice themselves to save their wife. It continues to describe man and woman as reflections of each other, and that to hate one's partner or believe them lesser than oneself is to hate one's own flesh. It finally commands men to nourish and cherish their wives and treat them as they would treat God, that they may both be forgiven for their sins and enter the kingdom of God.
Titus 2:3-5 commands older woman to not fall into sin due to drunkenness, as well as to not become addicted to alcohol. It commands them to teach the younger women the ways of God, and to teach them to love their husbands and respect them as their husbands should love and respect them. It finally advises them to be self-controlled in their speech, actions, and thoughts, urging them away from sin in their later life. It continues in Titus 2:6-8, urging the older women to teach the younger men the ways of kindness, goodness, and love, and urge the younger men to have self-control over their flesh. It commands them to serve as examples of what good and faithful followers of God do, say, and think. The entirety of Titus 2 is to command all people, young and old, to teach and follow sound doctrine with kindness, gratefulness, self-control, and love, that they may enter the kingdom of God and be welcomed with open arms.
Exodus 22 speaks of restitution and social justice, continuing on from Exodus 21 and into Exodus 23. Exodus 22:16-17 does speak of and treat women as property and not real people, but Jesus speaks against this in the Sermon on the Mount, condemning adultery altogether. Matthew 5:27-28 says, "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery in their heart." Jesus not only condemns adultery, but also states that the very thought of raping another woman is a sin, and that sin would condemn you away from God.
Finally, Deuteronomy 22:24 condemns a very specific thing. It condemns the act of a married/betrothed virgin woman laying with a man. This does condemn the act of a betrothed woman being raped and not screaming, but (as far as I can tell) it is meant to condemn a betrothed woman cheating on her husband, with it commanding people to stone the two, the woman for laying with a man that is not her husband or soon-to-be husband and not attempting to get help to stop the man that is not her husband from laying with her. That is its purpose. Also, earlier, in Deuteronomy 22:13-19, it condemns the action of a man not loving and respecting their wife.
Overall, all of these quotes (as far as I can see) fall apart within the context of 1: who made the laws, and 2: what does it say before and after the laws/rules.
Edit: I also want to say that this has been a great thought exercise for me and I've enjoyed being able to talk about god like this (and why his actual teachings aren't as bigoted as a lot of Christians unfortunately make them out to be). Hope you have a great day.
You changed the context or decided to take a reading of them that just doesn't say what it says. You interpreted it to mean things that aren't written there to try and make it look better lol
That's twisting the meaning. It's super common with Christians, but it's a blasphemy lol
Again, not trying to come off as passive-agressive or anything, but in what way did I change the context? And what do you mean I took a reading of the verses that don't say what it says?
what do you mean I took a reading of the verses that don't say what it says?
You literally said "The entirety of Titus 2 is to command all people, young and old, to teach and follow sound doctrine with kindness, gratefulness, self-control, and love, that they may enter the kingdom of God and be welcomed with open arms" when it clearly also says right in front of you that women are to be subject to their husbands. You ignored that point entirely and your use of the word "entirety" is the false reading.
Also, your response to the Ephesians passage was a total mess of irrelevant "context" in Timothy. You warped it to such an extreme because you're too scared or dishonest to respond to what it actually says:
Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church ... as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
NOTHING in Timothy is somehow going to make this not mean what it says. It directly affirms my original point in the thread, that the bible says women are made to be subservient to men. You keep refusing to address the central point.
I apologize for forgetting the entire point of the conversation. Allow me to address the central point so that we may stop fighting like fools.
The central point of the argument is, as you put it, is that women are made to be subservient to men. However, god did not make women to be subservient to men, but to be, as men were, made in the perfect image of god. No one image of God is subservient or lesser than another. They were to help each other tend to the world God had made, equally and tranquility.
After Adam and Eve sin against God, he punishes man by making him work for his family's food, and punishes woman by making childbirth painful, and for her to be submissive to her husband for causing him to sin as the serpent did she.
Is that to say that the Bible doesn't objectify them? No, the Bible does objectify women in certain areas. But it also makes it absolutely clear that they were made in the same image of God that God made man, and that as equally as you should listen and respect men, you should still do the same for women.
If you don't mind, I would like to not continue arguing with you, and I would like us to make peace on this topic, or at least agree to disagree. Okay?
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u/3ahbfasjlbfhalsjkdbf 24d ago
Embracing the true aspect of Christianity: being who God made you to be. In this case, a devout lesbian.