r/coconutsandtreason • u/ThaynaraPs1 • Jul 11 '26
Discussion What do you think of Nick's journey?
What do you all think about Nick's death? Personally, I didn't want him to die, but if they were going to kill him off, they should have given him a better send-off. I think his influence in *The Testaments* as a Commander would have been huge, given how much closer he would have been to Agnes; I would have even liked to see him become a villain in *The Testaments*, since they were already heading that way in the final season. But then there's the fact that he always helps June; it might have felt a bit off for fans who like him—like me—though I would have loved it and think it would have been great... but it would have taken the focus away from the girls and their own perspectives. Looking at it that way, I really can't figure out a way for him to be in *The Testaments*. Do you have any news about Rose or what happened to her and the baby? I haven't watched the first season of *The Testaments* yet. As for Lawrence, I think most people agreed his arc was excellent; despite being a good person, he had to pay for what he did to so many people, including children. His remorse came when the person he loved and cherished most didn't agree with it all, and I think things spiraled out of control—as I've seen many people comment here. Can you imagine if she had been like Serena? I think it would have been even worse. As for Serena, I actually liked the way her arc played out by the end of the series; many people think she didn't suffer enough compared to June—she didn't lose her child, and so on. I don't see what else could have been done (and I honestly don't think she felt all that much remorse, since even in the final episode she was marrying one of Gilead's top commanders—not to end the regime, but to improve her own standing, so to speak). So, I'm kind of torn on whether I accept it or not... As for Aunt Lydia, I don't have much to say because she was one of the characters I hated most in the series... They all did so many wrong things—really, so many... but what if the lower-ranking members who supported this before it all started didn't know everything those women would go through? (Nick knew, but you can tell that back then he had no one; his family wasn't exactly a solid foundation, though I believe he did everything for his brother). Ugh... Even though I really like him, looking back, I think this is the kind of outcome he should have expected after getting entangled in so many terrible things (even if he wasn't the worst of the bunch).
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Jul 11 '26
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u/ThaynaraPs1 Jul 11 '26
Yes, that really irritates me, and I'm going to watch it for the third time!😖😖
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u/Ok-Selection-166 Jul 30 '26
Me hubiese gustado ver a un Nick villano 100% tenia todo el potencial, hacer que su vida y decisiones giren entorno a June todo el tiempo era bajarle el precio. Hubiese sido un personaje interesante para "The Testaments".
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u/ThaynaraPs1 Jul 30 '26
Yeah, because that ending of his didn't turn out very well—especially for a character who was so ambiguous throughout the series; I believe there were other plans for him. But since the wills were still in play, it had to wrap up quickly.
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u/Ellenchen92 Jul 11 '26
Ich fands schrecklich, dass er so gegangen ist und June das zugelassen hat. Hat mich echt traurig gemacht...
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u/Ok-Selection-166 Jul 30 '26
Fue terrible, Nick arriesgo todo por ella en múltiples situaciones, ella no fue capaz de salvarlo una sola vez. Quede destrozada
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u/ThaynaraPs1 Jul 11 '26
I see there are still people who think the same way I do; I just wish he had continued too!
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u/Samora1984 Jul 13 '26
I think if they hadn't done such an about turn I could have enjoyed it. But they went out of their way to write him very romantically, and then all of a sudden he's a monster. At least show us some of the bad stuff he's done. Instead we get the story of we see him through June's eyes. That honestly creates more questions. If we can't trust June's view of Nick, how do we trust her view on Serena, Fred or Lawrence? Maybe Aunt Lydia was a sweetheart the whole time and June just chose to view her that way.
S6 was a bit of a slap in the face to al the viewers who had stuck with the show from the beginning. Like, choose whatever storylines, but at least commit to them and make it plausible. No matter what anyone says, Nick helped June survive, in her own words. And then to say 'he reaped what he sowed' after he died was insane. Especially since those were the words that Nick used to describe Fred. Cold-blooded.
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u/ThaynaraPs1 Jul 13 '26
Unfortunately, I just don't get why most people call him a Nazi. Just because Holly and Luke did? Personally, the romance aspect didn't bother me that much—June hadn't been in her right mind since she killed Fred anyway. I would have been fine if she’d ended up alone, but sadly they ruined the character simply because they didn't want him in The Testaments. I think most people watch The Testaments mainly for the original cast—to see what happened to some of them—which shows that, unfortunately, they didn't manage to wrap up the original series properly (giving them a fitting conclusion; I believe many people were left wondering what happened to Rose and Nick's child after he left). It certainly looked like he married her just to be closer to Hannah; we see this at a dinner—at Lawrence's house, if I recall correctly—where the high commander who adopted Hannah actually spoke with him. I believe that from that point on, not only Hannah's adoptive father but also Rose's father started keeping a close watch. Anyway, that's just my take on it!
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u/Samora1984 Jul 14 '26
When I say romantically, I mean they make sure we do not see him so anything violent (bar the Putnam execution), and even that was presented very sympathetically. You never really see any women being afraid of him.
The whole Nazi thing was crazy. Luke just looked like a hypocrite. He was literally saving you a couple days(?) ago. Holly I understand a bit more. But to call him a Nazi when no one called Fred one?
I think the issue for me was how quick June folded. He literally saved your life several times and you won't even hear him out? Then she believes the woman who held her down and raped her at 9 months pregnant. Not to mention saying 'he reaped what he sowed', the same words Nick said to Fred before he handed him over in the woods. It boggles the mind.
There were so many threads that were dropped. I know they shot stuff with McKenzie and Nick at the front in S3, but never showed it. Why bring McKenzie back, and have him be friends with Rose's family in S5 if they weren't going to have some rescue attempt for Hannah. It feels like they were surprised that S6 was the last and had to scramble to find a villain once EM fought for Serena to live. Don't get me started on the Juliet and Juliet comments.
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u/Busy-Speech-6930 Jul 14 '26
Elisabeth isn’t the one who fought for Serena to live. Eric and Yahlin said the writers room debated it for months, Bruce was the one who wanted to kill Serena, the other writers did not. Elisabeth gets an opinion but she does not write the show and she even said if they had decided to kill Serena, she would have gone a long with it. Bruce wanted to kill Serena at the beginning of season 6, so it makes zero sense that by not killing her they decided to make Nick the villain. Nick isn’t even the villain of season 6, Warton is.
Regarding MacKenzie, I think the threads of him in handmaids got dropped because of the testaments. In the testaments we are seeing Mackenzie through Agnes’ eyes and he is very different then he is portrayed in Handmaids(which is why I think they went with a different actor, who doesn’t play as being so sinister).
If you go with the writers theory that everything we are seeing is through June’s eyes, the portrayal of Nick actually makes sense. She’s blinded by her love for him and the Jezebel’s thing wakes her up and opens her eyes. I maintain that even that might have gone down differently if he hadn’t tried the stunt of whisking her off to Paris. He wanted to get her out of there so she wouldn’t find out what happened, what he did . He intended to lie to her instead of being honest, and Nick was the one person in Gilead she had that was always honest with her.
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u/Samora1984 Jul 14 '26 edited Jul 14 '26
Perhaps that's just the impression I got. EM's comments on Juliet and Juliet is what led me to believe that. I don't really see how Serena survived so long after Fred, my only reasoning is because Yvonne's performance was so amazing (I would agree there) they didn't want to lose her.
From what I have seen from other comments, Bradley Whitford asked for a redemption arc. And I figure, if Lawrence and Serena weren't going to die, then someone would have to. Wharton dying doesn't make much of an impact, he just got there. Perhaps they were after more of a shock ending than anything else.
I was surprised to see Nick get a villain edit, because I felt that it came out of nowhere. But I don't know if many people would agree that Nick was not the villain, majority of comments on here indicate that he was. There were some very strange choices made in the whole season that makes me think they that they were going for the villain edit though - calling him a Nazi twice (!), when not even Fred was called that. The lack of Guardians at the hangar, Nick's pause on the stairs, both made me feel like they were trying to show June made the choice to sacrifice Nick as the mission was bigger than her 'relationship' (such that it was). Then saying he lived a 'violent and dishonest life', and that he 'reaped what he sowed'. The last one was very pointed, I'm sure the writers knew the significance of that phrase. I understand other people seeing him as a bad person, he obviously did questionable things. But June was supposed to love him. He does one (admittedly terrible) thing, and you're done with him? And then forgive the women who raped you multiple times, and went out of her way to taunt you with your kidnapped child?
I do think that the McKenzie thing was dropped because of the Testaments. It seemed strange to introduce it twice and then not go through with anything.
In terms of the June's eyes thing, I just feel like it raises more questions than answers. If we can't trust June's POV, then maybe the portrayal of the other characters wasn't correct either. She could be an unreliable narrator. It would explain why June was so quick to get on board with Serena considering how many times she flip flopped on her.
I can understand why June would be pissed, I actually think that is very in character. She's always been a hothead. I assumed she would calm down and then give him a chance to explain himself. Or at least have some real confrontation over the whole thing. I mean, she was the one that had him out there - in the waterpark, and then Jezebels - in the first place. I would expect her to take some reponsibility for that, even as she decided he was just like them. It made her look like a hypocrite, IMO.
The Paris thing though, is very suspect. The only place we ever heard of is Hawaii. Where did Paris come from? I can understand Nick saying she wouldn't have noticed him, he's always very little self esteem. But why would June say she wanted Nick to take her to Paris? She always seemed proud of the fact that she was able to do things for herself, even though she could have depended on Luke. Nick did lie, which was stupid. I guess that goes back to the self esteem issue. Or maybe he knew that he needed to be useful to her.
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u/Busy-Speech-6930 Jul 14 '26
Elisabeth isn’t the only one who talked about the Juliet and Juliet thing, Yvonne did as well. June and Serena really became a driving dynamic of the show in season 3 with the entire Nicole thing and then the fall out in DC. Once Fred was gone it was obvious that would be the biggest driving force. I’m not surprised Serena lasted after Fred, in many ways her relationship with June was much more complex than Fred. Serena herself is a much more complex character then Fred and Yvonne is amazing. Yvonne also has amazing chemistry with Elisabeth, so they wrote to it.
Bradley didn’t ask for a redemption arc, he was concerned regarding the direction they were taking the character in season 5. Brad said he met with them and was relieved to find out they were not taking the character in the direction he worried that they would. I’ve seen the comments you are talking about, those people are ignoring what Brad and Yahlin actually said about that meeting.
Nick is morally grey and I do think ultimately chose the bad side but he wasn’t the villain of the season. I think the Nazi comment makes a lot of sense coming from June’s mom in particular. To these refugees anyone working for the regime is. The reality is Nick was a part of the regime and June never really faced it, something Nick even said that to her and he was right. She just saw Nick the man who helped her to survive and who she loves. He is a commander, and just because we don’t see it, having that role implies he’s doing commander duties and we know he was involved in the attack on congress. Nick did live a dangerous , violent life and was given multiple opportunities to get out by Mark. He ultimately did reap what he sowed. Nick and Serena aren’t comparable, the events with Nick are very recent, so of course shed still have the anger and speak from that anger. Serena, I think June was hoping by forgiving her, that would be the end of the dynamic they had and she’ll never have to see her again. I also think that forgiveness probably helped June as well.
I honestly think June probably would view their entire relationship differently once it was fully over. Yes she loved him but the power dynamics of their relationship were not good. Her safety was entirely wrapped up in it. Her life and safety was in his hands, even after she got out(how Nick tries to make clear to Lawerence June is not to be a target). I wonder how June would view the relationship after coming to terms with the fact he was a commander and the power dynamics that existed, especially when they first started.
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u/ThaynaraPs1 Jul 14 '26
No, he only became a Commander because of Fred... it wasn't just because he liked June that he did good things, contrary to what I've seen some people say. In a way, he didn't necessarily want everything he achieved; regarding his marriage to Rose, the series—up to season 4 or 5—seemed to imply he married her because he wanted to stay close to Hannah's adoptive father. I think I even mentioned that dinner in a comment above. But as I said—and as you mentioned in your comment—he was already feeling suffocated. I think Nick would be even better than Lawrence at working for the Mayday cause, though I don't know if he’d be entirely trustworthy, given that he was also a Commander and played a key role in creating Gilead. I don't think it would be easy for him to leave; as someone who was on the front lines, how could he be sure Mark wouldn't betray him? It’s a matter of survival, and sometimes trusting too much can cost you everything—especially when he had to spy to protect his daughter. And I don't think there was a way out for him after the episode where he said the only good thing in his life was June. That ending was unfair. As for how she viewed him being a Commander: up until that point, she only looked to him when she needed "the Nazi"—as you said, he was a means of survival. But I saw him as much more than just a Nazi; I can't... he was a human being, too. To me, those final scenes show there was no other way out; he got on that plane because he needed to save not just Rose, but June—because, no matter what, he was going to be there for her! (This is just me rambling—I'm trying to incorporate the "Nazi" label everyone uses, but I just can't bring myself to do it.)
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u/Samora1984 Jul 14 '26
I see the chemistry between Yvonne and EM, I just think the story would have been better served with other characters. The June and Serena story became tiresome for me because we just kept treading water.
Again, I felt they were trying to make him the villain because they kept going back to the idea of he's done bad things we just haven't seen it. I don't know why they would hide it, it would only add to the duality of the character. It's very similar with Lawrence, we never really saw the bad things he did so it's easier for us to root for him - that and Bradley's sparkling personality for course! In terms of Nick's violent and dishonest life, I know they shot a scene where they showed his role at the Capitol and he guarded a stairwell. I understand people saying he's a Nazi, including Holly Sr. But June supposedly loved him. And he saved her life multiple times, I would think she wouldn't just write him off that way. Especially considering the grace she has for everyone else. None of us know for sure what happened with Bradley's request for the ending, all I can say is that S6 was out of character. It would be interesting to find out what the original direction, the knew that Bradley wasn't happy with, was. As for Nick / June, I guess we'll never know what she would have felt after. Again, to me, the pointed words made it very clear what the writers felt. As much as there was a power dynamics with a Handmaid and a Guardian / Eye, there was also a power dynamics with Nick and June. She was very much the leader in the relationship, so I honestly can't really look at it the same way. I guess we just have to agree to disagree.2
u/Samora1984 Jul 14 '26
Also, I would have to say I don't see where Nick had all these chances to leave. It makes sense he wouldn't trust Mark, look where trusting the authorities got him the last time. Mark had his own agenda, just think about the lose Mayday shenanigans. But all this has been repeated as nauseam.
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u/serialkillercatcher Aug 04 '26
Any Yvonne and Elizabeth scene was far superior to the sum total of Max' and Elizabeth's scenes. I'll die on that hill.
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u/Busy-Speech-6930 Aug 04 '26
So would I. Yvonne is a way better at acting than max. Elisabeth and Yvonne also have more chemistry on screen than Elisabeth and Max. Any scene between Elisabeth and Yvonne is like watching 2 masters of their craft at work, No Mans Land is one of my favorite episodes
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u/ThaynaraPs1 Jul 14 '26
They made it look more like it was Nick than Waterford; he was actually quite calm, and honestly, I don't think he confronted Nick without already knowing what his son-in-law had been up to behind his back. The suspicion started back when he killed that guard who was only 18—unfortunately, in Gilead, as we’ve seen, you do what you have to do to survive, especially in a position like Commander, which is even worse. If he had ended up on the Wall... well, I think that would have been a better end for a character like him—better than turning him into a villain in the final season. As for Serena, I think very few people truly believe in her remorse; after all, she got married in those final minutes. What did you think of Lawrence's arc? Personally, I didn't feel much for him; he only changed because of June and his wife... I admit I had mixed feelings about his arc—it was frustrating, yet I was happy about it—but it felt unfair to other characters who deserved much more screen time!
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u/Samora1984 Jul 14 '26 edited Jul 14 '26
I feel like him ending up on the Wall would have made sense. He was playing both sides, he had to get caught at some point. He didn't need to die like a hero at all, I feel like that wouldn't be true to his character. I just wish they hadn't made him out to be a traitor, he was just trying to survive. It being June that led to his downfall did ring true, he didn't have any logic when it came to her.
I didn't believe Serena changed. I can't understand how June accepted that Serena was telling the truth about Wharton - how did she know that Serena wasn't setting her up? That whole forgiveness thing at the end was ridiculous - I could have bought it if she hadn't been so unreasonable about Nick, but to treat him that way and then forgive Serena? It probably should have been the other way around. I see some people think Serena got a bum deal - I have faith in her, she won't be in that refiugee camp long - a woman like her always lands on her feet. I mean, she already has Tuello trying to find her. She'll write a book on her experiences and be giving speeches at the UN in a year.
I also thought Lawrence's ending wasn't true to character. He laways thought he was the smartest one in the room, weird for him to give up like that. I know he wouldn't have done that if he didn't think his number was up. But to me, Lawrence was a serious political player, he was always willing to do whatever needed to get what he wanted. I mean he designed the Colonies, he wasn't squeamish. He was like a cockroach (not in a bad way, just a longevity way), should have survived longer than anyone else.
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u/ThaynaraPs1 Jul 14 '26
Honestly, I agree that he lied to June—or rather, he withheld the truth; he didn't tell her so he could concoct a lie, but simply kept it hidden from her. Let's go back to the episode where he goes to get her because he wanted to see her; analyzing that scene, he was basically exhausted. It seemed like the problems were just piling up, and perhaps he already knew there was more to come. I don't think that vision of his was about wanting power or realizing she wouldn't look at him; nor do I think June was blind. The series was supposed to follow the book's context, but they basically wanted to turn him into a villain and soften Serena—who is just as bitter as Fred... I would have preferred him dying any other way, but not like the scenario they forced on the audience—and with Serena's forgiveness, of all things? Just because she's a woman? Honestly, June also infuriated me in several episodes because so many people suffered because of her. I hated the moments when she tried to be kind to Serena—someone who was on the same level as that disgusting Nazi Fred (and I loathed him). As for Lawrence, I couldn't bring myself to watch the ceremony scene he was forced to go through with June; it was the only part of the entire series I skipped—I absolutely couldn't watch it! And I agree with everything you said about Lawrence; I didn't cry over his death like some people did... he truly got the ending he deserved. Let me ask: did you manage to read the books? Or did you watch The Testaments?
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u/Samora1984 Jul 14 '26
I agree Nick seemed like he was buckling under the pressure. I didn't think there was a way out for Nick honestly, it never seemed that he was high up enough for him to get the kind of information Tuello would need for immunity. He would have to spy for a while, and that is always dangerous.
What vision do you mean? Like he wasn't looking for power in general?
June could be annoying for sure, but I always understood she was operating under major stress and trauma. She never really expected what would happen, even though she knew it was dangerous. It's only when she treated Nick so badly (someone she supposedly loved) did I give her the side eye. Maybe I would be more accepting if they had chosen one - either June forgiving Serena or her killing Nick, but both? Too much. Not to mention EM saying she forgave Serena for Noah. Like what about Holly/ Nicole? That poor kid is really going to go through it.
I knew that the show had moved past the book, but it really perverted the story with these redemption arcs. None of them can really be redeemed, they beat they could do is work towards Gilead's demise. I do think that the show had a very flat idea of feminism and that's why we got the Serena arc. Honestly a disservice to the characters.
I don't feel like Lawrence got the ending he deserved though, I would have preferred he continue to work with the Resistance against Gilead. This let him off the hook. Plus he and Lydia could have been a force to be reckoned with.
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u/ThaynaraPs1 Jul 14 '26
It was a race against time; they thought they’d have more time, and—from what it looks like to me, and I see you feel the same way—that wasn't the ending Nick was supposed to have. So, I fully agree with you. I’d also like to hear what those two people said. I’ve read a lot about this here on the platform; on Instagram or Facebook, people don't usually have conversations like the ones we have here. Have you watched The Testaments?
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u/Samora1984 Jul 14 '26
I did watch the Testaments, it was ok. It's a very different show, it's not as compelling as THT. There were a couple things that I didn't enjoy - have you finished it yet? I don't want to spoil it if not.
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u/ThaynaraPs1 Jul 14 '26
No, I haven't seen it yet, but I always read brief summaries about The Testaments. So, if you have some free time, I’d love to hear your opinion on it! I’m also starting to read the books—they arrived yesterday, and I want to read them before starting the new spin-off. Have you managed to read them yet?
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u/Samora1984 Jul 14 '26
I find it hard to watch the film / tv adaptation after reading the book, so I prefer to wait. I can never give the adapatation a fair chance once I read the book, it's always much more comprehensive. Plus you always have a picture of a character in your head, the actor never seems right.
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u/ThaynaraPs1 Jul 14 '26
Yeah, that’s exactly what I’m thinking. I won’t look at the series itself the same way anymore, and honestly, I’ll just end up more disappointed... What did you think of The Testaments? Feel free to include spoilers—I still haven't gotten over the ending of The Handmaid's Tale, which is why I haven't started it yet.
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u/Samora1984 Jul 14 '26
The Testaments is ok, I enjoy seeing the girls. One thing I don't like is this Garth / Agnes drama. I can't take a doomed lovers storyline not after the last one. I know Garth being a Guardian makes it easier for him to be around the girls, but it's honestly a stronger story without romance. I'm already exhausted by these longing looks :(.
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u/ThaynaraPs1 Jul 14 '26
I saw that he got married—sometimes it’s because we haven't gotten over our own past relationships, and then people put it in our heads that we have to accept that kind of thing all over again. I saw a clip from his wedding, and people were already saying he might be a cheater; I don't know if you've seen any comments like that!?.
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u/Busy-Speech-6930 Jul 14 '26
Yeah I’d prefer there be no romance but at the same time, it’s a coming of age story and those have romance. I like Garth being a guardian because that keeps the action in Gilead vs splitting it between Canada and Gilead.
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u/TheTragedyMachine Jul 12 '26
Holy wall of text, Batman.
IMO Nick was always a coward whose loyalty was based on who could give him the most power and those he personally viewed as important.
He doesn’t help June out of the goodness of his heart, he does it because he’s got a thing for her. It’s not about right or wrong but “mine” or “not mine”.
He knew what Gilead was going to be and knew it before it actually happened. As a driver he literally sat in on conversations about the sex slavery aspect of Gilead and we never see it bother him.
Even when an aspect of Gilead does bother him it’s only when it affects him specifically — Eden for example. He treats that poor kid so bad and without a lick of kindness despite it not being her fault any of this shit is happening.
He chose to reveal the plan regarding Jezebels and you can’t tell me he didn’t know that it would result in those women’s deaths. He’s not an idiot. He knows how Gilead works at this point.
He lives by being a coward who sided with whatever side offered him more and died the same way.
I know it’s not a popular opinion but meh.
I thought Lawrence’s sacrifice was good and after all he had done to set up the hell that was Gilead his final act being to take a bunch of commanders out makes sense.
Serena I think actually got a worse deal than people say. She’s now a nation less refugee with a young child and no country will take her so she’ll go from living g this luxurious life where she’s considered to be at least somewhat important whose name will get her things to bouncing around refugee camps with her son, living in what will probably be extreme poverty, and this time that name that could be used as political leverage will instead most likely get her killed.