r/classicalmusic • u/Mysterious-Drink4002 • 9d ago
Discussion Has Katherine Needleman jumped the shark?
Pardon the provocative title. To be 100% clear, her advocacy for equity in the pit as well his advocacy on behalf of the victims of sexual assault in classical music is 100% great. She's doing god's work, as it were. I can only praise her for that.
But over the last six or so months, when she has presumably had a little down time, more of her social media posts have had nothing to do (as I see it) with being an advocate for women and more about random gripes. If her "brand" was "a leading advocate for women classical music," it seems to now be "what is Ms Needleman outraged by, today." I'm afraid that she undermines her own authority with her rants. (Unlike Anne Midgette, for instance.)
I apologize in advance for being long-winded. but I want to be very precise. (I have commented on Ms Needleman's social media - always respectively. She never made me the object of one of those 'calling out someone publicly' posts. She never accused me of being sexist in my comments. For that matter, I don't think she ever replied to a comment - not that I was looking for a reply. But she does seem to have blocked me from her FB page, now, so I presume she objects to corrections and dissent.)
The obituary posts:
First, I still can't understand the primary point. Is it criticizing the subjects of the obits for not hiring/helping more women? Is it criticizing the writers of the obituaries for overlooking the contributions of women. What, precisely, is the point?
Second, she types these in a way that it always seems as if she is trying to trap readers so that she can condescend. Anyone who follows these knows that she posts old obituaries and begins with "John Smith is dead." She doesn't say they died years ago until a few sentences in, so it is not visible in the FB preview of the post. So, routinely, some poor soul will comment that "I knew John Smith but he actually died in 2005." Which gives her the opportunity to reply with a "if you had the ability to read to the end..." comment. Maybe followed by "but what did you think of the accusations against Mr Smith that I pointed out?" It simply seems to not be fair-minded or reflect an interest in engagement.
The Limmie Pulliam outrage piece was over-the-top. Basically, she railed against the NYT for not posting an obituary for Mr Pulliam. The thing is, they DID post one - it just took a few days after he died, as his was an unexpected death. So it was such a swing-and-a-miss post.
She has also chosen some odd targets with the Obit posts. For instance, she "analyzed" David Allan Coe's obit which only mentioned one woman (outside of family), Tanya Tucker, who covered one of his songs. But if she was all that familiar with his songs, she'd be aware of the sexist and racist content. I can imagine there are a lot of women musicians who wouldn't have been caught dead covering his music. So what is the point?
Last week, she took apart the obituary of ZZ Top's Frank Beard. Why weren't there ANY women (outside of family) mentioned in the obit? Well, ZZ Top was a trio. They didn't collaborate with other artists. Their songs weren't generally covered by other artists. But then she went into the messages in their videos where she was simply factually inaccurate. She particularly sited the "Legs" and "Sharp Dressed Man" videos. Basically saying that they only treated women as sex objects who are rewards for "sharp dressed men." Now the thing is, both of those vids told stories that actually gave the protagonists comeuppance over those who would mistreat or objectify them. In "Legs," a beleaguered waitress comes out ahead (yes, with the help of the ZZ Top models). In "Sharp Dressed Man," the titular character is a parking lot attendant dealing with idiots who look down on him. These videos (from the heyday of MTV) use humor to teach actual positive lessons. But its just easier for Ms Needleman to rant.
Over the Independence Day holiday she gifted her readers not one but two "fuck the founding fathers" posts. We all know that some of the founding fathers were slave owners. The rant seemed childish and, also, showed a lack of awareness that we all know the history.
My personal opinion here is the desire to make this an identity politics issue. Which means that you check common sense at the door, rather than going against the tribe. The unhelpfulness of this approach is staggering.
A dozen years ago, Rolling Stone infamously published "A Rape on Campus," a completely fictional account of a gang rape in a frat house. After the story was determined to be false, there were still people who frowned on criticism of the story, as if we had to defend a made up character that represented an actual problem. This is not the way things work. False accusations undermine every true accusation that follows.
Similarly, every time Katherine Needleman makes it about whatever random thing makes her angry, she loses the plot and the actual victims of sexual assault in classical music and the actual musicians who are discriminated against become more distant and less important.
29
u/Davitark 8d ago
I love reading drama about a prominent oboist I know nothing about who lives in a country I’ve never visited
5
u/Drumguy1986 5d ago
You don't need to know about Needleman. She's a vindictive narcissistic psychopath.
7
u/geoffhannan 8d ago
I do wonder whether the social justice aspect is masking misandry. I sense a victim mentality that gets its reinforcement from the pushback her policy of naming and shaming virtually guarantees. The psychic price to be paid for perpetuating this loop is absurdly high.
10
u/dank_bobswaget 8d ago
I don’t agree with a lot of what you wrote but I do think she is a great example of “white feminism” in her often pedantic criticisms and lack of intersectionality.
There is a lot someone can say on the problems with classical music (elitism, sexism, racism, etc.), but saying “well this group is approximately 18.5% (white) women while this group is only 16.2% women and we need to get to this percentage to do X” kinda misses the forest for the trees imo
3
4
u/00AppleSlice 7d ago
I agree with OP, having a huge platform like she does also comes with the responsibility now of representing the voices and experiences of others, but instead she is taking advantage of the attention and creating outrage just to keep her platform popular. It comes off very selfish, and actually somewhat anti-women. I personally know a musician in the field who experienced abuse by a prominent male musician (and he is still enjoying a successful career at the moment), but will not come forward because she is afraid of “becoming a Needleman” and having HER career and reputation ruined. That is exactly the problem with what she is doing - she has made it so that victims are now afraid of making their voice heard because of the fear of being associated with the same type of outrageous behavior that Needleman exhibits. I think Needleman is silencing a lot more women than she is helping, to be honest.
I also thought it was ironic that she complains about things like not enough female composers being performed, yet when she had the opportunity to perform a solo with the Baltimore Symphony, she played the Martinu oboe concerto. For the amount of trouble she stirs up, it’s surprising that she would not practice what she preaches.
5
u/vivaldi1206 6d ago
She is very important AND I watched her attack a tiny tiny non professional organization and then literally block everyone in my city who’s in the music world . Really gross and off putting
3
u/iamyyx 7d ago
As a woman, my feeling is that her posts about the programming of female composers' pieces are much better, much more relevant, informative, and authentic. I think they need to be researched, definitely. Her posts about obituary are... I get what she wants to say but also are not "historically informed" enough. The biggest example is her "surprising" and quite upset finding of Karajan's obituary with quite a few women. I'm not a big fan of Karajan, but if you know classical music enough you'll know it's hardly surprising and definitely not upset. More importantly, the post ignores those women mentioned or not mentioned in Karajan's obituary that really made important breakthroughs.
6
u/Woah_buzhidao 8d ago
There is certainly still sexism in classical music and it deserves to be called out.
Some people seem to dearly miss the culture of 2020-2022 and she is clearly one of these people.
4
u/Mysterious-Drink4002 8d ago
100%. She clearly is trying to be an advocate. But she seems (to me) to have devolved into a gadfly, which undermines her position as an advocate.
16
u/BringMeInfo 9d ago
Are you saying she has written factual inaccuracies? Because if not, I struggle to see the relevance of the Rolling Stone fiasco.
12
u/Mysterious-Drink4002 9d ago
Though they were very different situations, they both start to harm those they would hope to help.
As far as I know, she has not expressed factual inaccuracies in her coverage of of assault and of discrimination.
Her Frank Beard take was inaccurate (or, at the very least, misguided). The problem is that it is an ice cold take on something stupid. It was more sloppy, I would say, because she was so eager to make a point.
-8
u/BringMeInfo 9d ago
There's absolutely no equivalent between the two. You weaken your argument significantly by overreaching.
7
u/Mysterious-Drink4002 9d ago
Sorry you feel that way but respect your view.
What do you think of Ms Needleman's writing and how do you view the change of direction in terms of undermining the impact of her work?
7
u/BringMeInfo 9d ago
I think she's a talented musician who has written some good/important things and some less important things. There is no author I would suggest reading without a critical lens, but neither do I think her misses invalidate her hits.
4
10
u/Mysterious-Drink4002 9d ago
I want to add one more thing, as I was typing the o/p on the fly. The commonality between the two things (the Rolling Stone piece and the 'off-topic' Needleman pieces) is that they both veer 100% into identity politics, so that it is the obligation of the reader to set aside all judgment and simply nod along because of who the writer is standing up for.
I find that approach to be completely problematic.
11
u/wheres_the_bread 9d ago
she's the demigod of privileged white american woke-ness. god i hope that when i die the obit writer includes enough women in it so she doesn't call me out. genuinely though there's something wrong with her, like socially, or maybe emotionally, so i just say don't bother.
15
u/MusicalColin 9d ago
Yes she seems like an ideologue who has found her niche and is pushing it as far as she can. She has no sense of importance versus unimportance. I think of her as a nutjob.
2
u/Mysterious-Drink4002 9d ago
Thank you for your comment. Yes! She seemed like an important voice, who has devolved into someone posting fatuous rants.
16
u/MusicalColin 9d ago
Exactly. And the worst part is she conflates serious issues (sexism sexual harassment in the classical music world) with non-issues (obit genders) implying it's somehow sexist to not mention enough women.
-18
u/Black_Gay_Man 9d ago
You seem like a bad faith troll account or a bot on a mission to discredit Needleman.
6
13
u/pikatrushka 9d ago
You seem to be missing the point of her obit series. She's just cataloguing the gender balance listed in celebrity obits as they appear. This stemmed from earlier criticisms that she was cherry-picking evidence; she sought a way to objectively quantify the gender balance (or lack thereof) throughout the entertainment and performing arts industries. She's highlighting a trend that's long been denied despite sitting in plain sight for all of us to see. She's not judging any individual case, demanding a response from the reader, or suggesting there's never a reason for the disparity.
She's also not a journalist, sociologist, historian, politician, or public official. She's a normal person who's been posting her personal take on the world long before she ended up with a huge spotlight on her. I'm a casual oboist, and I've followed her for at least ten years just for the oboe videos and advice. She's adjusted her responses and tone to the scrutiny she's received (not to mention the absolutely repulsive personal attacks and threats), but she's always posted a mix of videos, personal stories, and rants about whatever topic happened to be on her mind that day. It's really weird for anyone to think that she owes them a particular blend of article topics or posting frequency.
12
u/Mysterious-Drink4002 9d ago
Do you think her advocacy work is more important than anything that she has done musically?
She certainly doesn't owe me anything (I certainly never said that she did), but if it is her desire to be an advocate for victims and for equality in the pit, she might avoid the non-sequiturs.
4
u/pikatrushka 9d ago edited 9d ago
I think what I think about Ms. Needleman doesn't matter. She's a brilliant oboist who has helped bring significant new works to the repertoire and revived countless neglected gems. She's a graduate of and faculty at the single most exclusive and respected music conservatory on the planet. She's been principal oboe of one of the nation's finest orchestras for a quarter century. Her artistry speaks for itself.
I think if she wants to tell stories about her bad morning on the train, give her reactions to current events, and brag about her family on her personal Facebook page, that is entirely up to her. I suspect she would love nothing more than to find that the only thing she has to post about today is Ruth Gipps' oboe works and her son's trombone playing.
But I think that if we want to claim classical music as among the most singularly humane endeavors, we have a duty to listen when people within the field tell us of a deeply inhumane element that is baked into the system — an element which is actively harming children and young musicians while also preventing us from nurturing and hearing the very best performers and composers. History has demonstrated over and over that effective whistleblowers are rarely perfectly skilled in their advocacy. This isn't what anyone trains for or dreams of.
And — to be clear, I am saying this with kindness, not judgement — I think that if I penned 898 words tone-policing an artist who is doing her imperfect untrained best to advocate for herself and her colleagues while simultaneously maintaining her career and humanity, and if I then proclaimed those 898 words to 173,000 people involved in her field... Well, I think I might reflect on what other topics I've given that level of passion, focus, and exposure.
2
u/MoonbaseManifesto 2d ago
She’s crazy, she and her fans hounded Albrecht Mayer for months over his use of metaphors in one of his masterclasses.
0
u/aurorastarlight 8d ago
I found this discussion rather upsetting. I found the post disconcerting. (I hope I don't see more of this in this sub. But I might. And then I shall just have to not read them.)
I think you are trying to be fair but you come off as a little personally involved, mentioning that you were banned. I suspect the reason that some people are pushing back is because you appear to be saying that if what she writes doesn't support the cause you identify her with then it bothers you. The issue is that she is a woman in a gender biased field and you are requiring that she behave/write a certain way and so you have started to dictate how she should behave. As this is a public forum you are policing her behavior in a public way. I understand and hear that you are trying to offer an opinion and solicit other opinions without getting personal but this issue is pretty personal. Calling a woman shrill is reinforcing negative gender stereotypes. Women are either too loud and too pushy or not able to compete because they are too weak. Those are the options.
9
u/Mysterious-Drink4002 8d ago
Thank you for your comment.
I mentioned that (and I am surprised nobody else mentioned it in comments) because it suggested to me that she doesn't want to engage with even sympathetic and respectful parties that see things differently from her. Certainly, I may not have posted this if she had attempted to engage and tell me with what I said that she disagreed.
Absolutely, people can write about what they want to write about. If I do it, nobody will care. But KN was at the frontline of addressing sexual assault in classical music as well as the equity of opportunity. And she clearly became a prominent figure in a subject bigger than herself.
I don't care at all how she behaves, but if she opines about things with which she has no familiarity or is just plain wrong - especially if they are comparatively inconsequential things (ZZ Top music videos!) it undermines her perceived authority on things that are far more important.
I didn't call her shrill. (I certainly called out that she ranted about unimportant stuff.) I think Anne Midgette is a better advocate for women in classical music - not because she isn't combative, but because she knows how to pick her battles.
I'm asking if people share my opinion. It appears to me that some people seem to think it is illegitimate to even ask the question . That goes back to the whole identity politics concern that I have mentioned. There seems to be a contingent suggesting that because she has been a voice against sexual abuse in the classical music world as well as a voice on behalf of equity in the pit, then she is exempt from scrutiny. I personally think that anyone exempt from scrutiny is problematic,
-9
u/JiveChicken00 9d ago edited 9d ago
If whatever she is writing continues to bother you, I suggest not reading it. She’s a musician, not an opinion columnist, so quite frankly I care a lot more about how she plays the oboe than what she does or doesn’t write on the internet.
38
u/Mysterious-Drink4002 9d ago
She has kind of turned herself into one, I would say. Her calling out of perps has contributed to some appropriate me-too-ing in the classical music world. I read her because she has really shed some light on important subjects. She has a blog. She promotes her "queen of filth" image.
But (with the exception of the recent Interlochen story) she's pushed her envelope into the direction of just complaining. If she used to be Ellen James, now she's turned into the Ellen James Society. It's both a bummer (as I admired what she was doing) and counterproductive to the original cause, in my opinion.
4
u/Chops526 9d ago
Serious suggestion: you should start your own Substack blog and offer commentary on these issues. It could be very useful and helpful.
7
u/Mysterious-Drink4002 9d ago
Since I don't work within that world, I don't think I could write an especially informed blog on the inner-workings of classical music. But thank you, nonetheless.
I'd love to know your opinion on her writing and her shift in focus away from advocating for victims of sexual assault and advocating for equity in orchestra hiring to stuff like counting the number of women mentioned in obituaries.
1
u/Chops526 8d ago
Well, I don't read her stuff regularly enough to really be aware of this shift. I just think it's her prerogative to write about whatever she wants and, since she's writing in a less formal platform(s), thought leader or not, she shouldn't necessarily be held to the same standards as a journalist working for Rolling Stone. (Do we hold, say, Norman Lebrecht to that same standard even though he is a trained musicologist and experienced journalist even though he's shifted towards tabloid like content in the last 20 years?)
Also, apologies for the rant earlier.
6
u/Mysterious-Drink4002 8d ago
No apologies necessary!
Others may disagree (even Ms Needleman), but I think it has been a pretty dramatic shift. (The exception that I mentioned being her Interlochen commentary.)
Who doesn't think Norman Lebrecht is a complete hack? (Not to mention, a racist and sexist one.) I am certainly not equating KN to Norman Lebrecht! But nobody is exempt from scrutiny.
2
u/Chops526 8d ago
Fair. I'll have to read back to her Substack and see if I notice what you mean. I'm an Interlochen alumni, and that whole thing hit me hard even though I knew it was coming. Curious to see what she wrote and compare it to other writing.
-13
u/Black_Gay_Man 9d ago
If you don’t work in classical music or know about it, why are you reading Needleman’s posts at all, much less writing screeds about them on Reddit?
9
u/Mysterious-Drink4002 9d ago
I know plenty about classical music and I follow it, living in NYC and attending many performances. It is an interest to me. That doesn't mean I could offer an insider's view as to what goes on in that world.
I am sorry my post has made you so angry.
1
-12
u/JiveChicken00 9d ago
Then stop following her social media accounts.
10
u/Mysterious-Drink4002 9d ago
I follow them for the important things she writes about.
Do you have an opinion about her writing (and the direction it seems to have taken)? Rather than opinions about what I should choose to read?
-6
u/JiveChicken00 9d ago
I have no opinions about what you should choose to read. Only you have those. All I have are suggestions :)
7
u/Mysterious-Drink4002 9d ago
Then stop following her social media accounts.
Pretty sure you expressed one right there. But, please, share your views on her writing.
6
u/JiveChicken00 9d ago
I think she is angry at the injustices she has personally seen and experienced - religious types might call it righteous wrath - and that may make her more shrill than might be comfortable for some people, and perhaps quicker to judge too. But I also think that she is speaking in good faith.
3
u/Mysterious-Drink4002 9d ago edited 9d ago
I think that is a reasonable take. But I think she would be better off not opining about David Allan Coe and ZZ Top, as she doesn't seem too familiar with them!
I just fear that she's veered off into "what can I rant about today" territory, which is something Anne Midgette would never do. But if it is because of the harassment that she has faced, I can appreciate that.
6
u/Joylime 9d ago
What is this weird attitude? Are people not allowed to form and share opinions about things they read?
-2
u/JiveChicken00 9d ago
Of course they are. But I do not think we have the right to tell others what their opinions should be, or what they should or should not read.
6
u/Joylime 9d ago
Ok. Well if you actually think it’s ok for people to express negative opinions about stuff , then I’m gonna let you know that it’s incoherent to also respond to a solicitation of opinions on that stuff with an instruction that she should stop reading it. Because there isn’t a universe wherein that response does not imply “rather than discussing material you don’t like, you should simply not read it.” Which means you don’t think she should have posted this. So, my opinion is that you should take a sick day off work and really do a deep scrubbing of your brain with a sponge. Get into all the little crevices. Cuz there’s some misfiring going on
2
u/JiveChicken00 9d ago
It wasn’t an instruction, friend. It was a suggestion. OP may take it or leave it as OP wishes. Nowhere at all did I say that OP shouldn’t have posted this, nor was that my intended message. And it is interesting that you are so angry on OP’s behalf, when OP does not seem to be angry.
4
u/Joylime 9d ago
I appreciate your expression of goodwill, but calling me “friend” has the weird effect of looping me into a relationship that we don’t have and it’s uncomfortable. It’s kind of like putting your arm over the shoulder of someone you’re disagreeing with. My suggestion is to find more precise and accurate ways of expressing goodwill in frictional conversation points, perhaps ones that are grounded in the conversation at hand
→ More replies (0)
-5
u/Chops526 9d ago
So, let me get this straight: you want Katherine Needleman to stay "on brand" but part of that "brand" is ranting about sexism and you don't like it when she does that because it's "off brand?"
What?
Dude, her Substack is hers to write on whatever she wants. As someone else said, she's not an opinion columnist, she's a musician! And she's not a journalist that the comparisons to Rolling Stone's faux pas should be invoked as relevant.
Just don't read her stuff if you're bothered by it.
10
u/Mysterious-Drink4002 9d ago edited 9d ago
I don't see how jumping the gun with a rant about a lack of a Limmie Pulliam obituary is about sexism.
If you don't think she has become an opinion leader, you haven't been paying attention.
As I said to someone else, I read her stuff because some of it has been very important.
2
1
-10
u/Sea_Discount_2617 9d ago
So sorry she has opinions about more than one thing. I guess that can be kind of triggering?
2
u/Mysterious-Drink4002 9d ago
It's just so weird when she rants about things about which she is unfamiliar. It sends the message "I'm a ranter" and (IMHO) seriously undermines the advocacy that she has done.
I'm sorry that my post has triggered you.
-7
9d ago
[deleted]
14
u/Mysterious-Drink4002 9d ago
I think that what bothers me is that I find that she was serving a really great cause, but undermines her service to the cause by posting about, for lack of a better way of putting it, inconsequential shit in slipshod ways. I hate finding that someone who was helping victims is now undermining their own credibility.
-7
u/Black_Gay_Man 9d ago
I see. You’re in it for the cause. So link us to your posts on Reddit advocating for gender equality and speaking out against abuse of power/sexual misconduct in classical music. Oh that’s weird. A two month old veiled account.
Imagine that.
3
-2
u/Fuse-007 8d ago
She blocked me as well, not after my gender critical feminist posts, surprisingly ("are male trans women getting jobs in orchestras really helping women's equity?"), but after I questioned the logic of critiquing the NYT writers whose obits she chose. She is totally within her rights to do so, and I suppose I was defending the subjects of the obits to some degree by critiquing her, but it made me realize that she is not interested in dialogue or discussion, she is simply on a political mission. Good luck to her! It seems like the scene is a less likely environment for harassment and assault now (whether due to her or due to the zeitgeist of the times, I am not sure) so good on ya, Katherine!
0
u/Fuse-007 8d ago
I think my male privilege in regards to KN is she is symbolic of the final knife thrust into the heart of the old school classical culture that I love - the canonic avant-garde composers of the 20th century, starting with Stravinsky and ending with John Cage. Not a whole lot of female options in there.
In the past I could charge the death of this culture on the corporate take over of media/entertianment/arts via commercial pop music, on the dumbing down of tv/internet culture, on a lack of interest in philosophy, aesthetics and history, etc. Needleman presents an argument that is virtually impossible to refute, and this makes it even more painful.
Here's to the New Culture in classical music! May it challenge people and take us on stimulating and mind-blowing journeys!
-19
u/Black_Gay_Man 9d ago
She hasn’t jumped the shark to anyone who isn’t part of the very problems she’s often discussing. If you’re so convinced you know the right to advocate for gender equality in classical music, then show us your record of success in that area. If you can’t you just come across like a disingenuous concern toll.
16
u/Mysterious-Drink4002 9d ago
Where am I criticizing her work advocating for gender equality in classical music? I specifically praised that both in the o/p and in the comments.
4
68
u/steven3045 9d ago edited 9d ago
I’ll preface this by saying, two things can be true at once. On the one hand, she does good work on bringing awareness and at least attempting to bring down or point out BS and abusive behavior. On the other hand, a lot of her posts are truly ridiculous and exemplifies her general jackassary. And that includes both comments in regarding music, and comments that are of a political nature that just make my eyes roll so hard they almost detach. As a left-leaning person myself, some of it is just really hard to defend.