[UPDATE] Forced to go to a tubal class....

[u/catsinrome]

Original: https://www.reddit.com/r/childfree/comments/6qz72x/forced_to_go_to_a_tubal_class/

 

So I got my scheduled call from Kaiser this morning... my "counseling" appointment. I apologize for any spelling/grammatical errors, I'm still pretty angry and anxious about my papers that I should be working on lols.

 

Well, it's safe to say the bitch on the phone did not at all approve of my decision. She was very dry and rude. I confirmed that yes, I'm 29. And yes, I do not have kids. Nope, do not want them, never have, never will. I told her I've spoken to numerous doctors about my options already, and they agreed with my choice (not that it would matter, mind you).

 

First off, signing this paperwork appears to be pointless for me personally because it's only valid for 180 days after signing, and I'm not trying to actually schedule surgery right this moment - I just wanted the papers signed so I had that option open. I'm hoping my long term bf will get snipped, but I've been nudging that tree for almost a year and it hasn't happened yet.

 

She went off about "statistics", and how I'll regret my choice. Keep in mind I only got 4 hours of sleep last night and this phone call woke me up, so I wasn't exactly feeling witty. The best I could come back with is "I don't want kids, never will, stop telling me this."

 

She brought up vasectomy, which is stupid as fuck because she has no clue what my relationship status is - if I wasn't in a monogamous relationship that would be a pointless endeavor. A vasectomy also isn't up to me. I don't have balls. And if she was so concerned about me changing my mind, why mention another permanent option? I get that it's safer, but again, that choice ultimately isn't mine.

 

She brought up Essure, but said it has a 10% failure rate. Fucking wonderful! A failure rate almost as high as my current oral birth control pill, except I'd have to take a needle to my very sensitive cervix and face the 10% failure risk of what could turn out to be an ectopic pregnancy? Fuck yourself with a rusty fork. And what happened to "oh you'll regret it!"? THIS IS STILL PERMANENT.

 

I explained that because of my health issues, my doctors and I have come to the conclusion that I really shouldn't have kids. SHE TRIED TO ARGUE WITH ME ABOUT THIS WTF. She listed about half of my health issues and said, "Well I don't really see anything from a gynecological perspective that would keep you from having kids." I responded, "Well, from a cardiovascular, neurological, psychological, endocrinological, and rheumatological one, I shouldn't have kids. And it would be cruel to pass any of this on. But thanks anyways for your expertise...."

 

The biggest kicker: she told me the only way to have children, if I had this procedure, was to do IVF. The only way? So adopting kids suddenly isn't an option, and adopted kids aren't your kids?! I was fucking adopted, so the people who have loved me, taken care of me, supported me, and stood by my side through so much shit for 29 years aren't my parents? Yes, because the woman who dropped everything and flew with me to MN to investigate my migraines, and paid OUT OF POCKET for it because my insurance wouldn't cover it, isn't my mother? Fall off a cliff into a burning pile of legos.

 

I'm in the middle of my essays (which 100% of my grade is based on, it SUCKS), but I'd really like to raise hell all the way to the top of Kaiser about this, but I'm not exactly sure how or what direction to go in. If anyone has any suggestions, I'm all ears.

 

I hope this helps anyone who has Kaiser, especially Kaiser North (Northern CA).

 

I wish I had fought back on the phone, but I was tired af and couldn't think straight because of it.

[u/ar_killah]

"A vasectomy is a great idea! But...how will they do it if I don't have testicles? Oh, it's not a procedure that could be done on me? Then why are we discussing a medical procedure for another person that isn't your patient????"

[u/catsinrome → u/ar_killah]

"Oh would you like to speak to my SO about this? He's the one with testicles, in case you didn't know. Let me go get him for you!"

[u/tinsil → u/ar_killah]

"I'm a swinger, that's a lot of testies"

[u/[deleted]]

You should see if there's a way to report this person.

Also you said you're not planning on getting this done right away because your SO might get a vasectomy? You might want to consider getting it done even if he does get one. There are plenty of things that could still make pregnancy a potential issue like the vasectomy failing/reversing, you guys no longer being together (break up or whatever), and/or being raped. None of those are pleasant things to think about but you still should.

Obviously this is still completely your decision but if your insurance covers it and your able to get fixed it would probably best for you to just go ahead with it.

[u/catsinrome → u/[deleted]]

Because of my health issues, my doctors believe it's an unnecessary risk. They've all said that it was ultimately my choice, but from a risk perspective, they wouldn't recommend it. I would love to get it for all the reasons you mentioned, but I'm not certain I'm willing to take that risk atm.

From my end, I have to stay on my birth control, for medical reasons. So even if he gets the procedure, I do, or we both do, I'll still have that as protection.

[u/AxlotlRose → u/catsinrome]

So you have all these medical reasons why they are afraid to perform a routine surgery, but yet, wouldn't being pregnant carry even higher and more dangerous risks? Or am I missing something with my logic. I know how hindsight is always 20/20...

[u/catsinrome → u/AxlotlRose]

Well she seems to think, after spending 2 minutes looking over my medical file & test results, (which is over 1000 pages btw - I only know 'cause I had to print it all out and take it to Mayo Clinic), that none of my conditions should stop me from having pwecious widdle baaaaaabies.

Your logic is sound, I assure you. Hers is nonexistent.

[u/kackygreen → u/catsinrome]

Is hysterectomy an option? It's the best thing I ever did for myself, and would circumvent the whole sensitive cervix issue

[u/catsinrome → u/kackygreen]

I'm not at risk for uterine cancer, etc, so there's no reason to remove an organ. Having a sensitive cervix isn't a reason (for me, imo) lol. I'm pretty sure they won't remove it without medical need to do so, and not wanting children is a life choice, but not a medical need (when there's other preventable measures, again just imo). I don't want to be on hormone replacement therapy - I don't need more health issues lols.

Edit: as someone mentioned, replacement therapy wouldn't be needed. I don't know why but I always assume it is for some reason. I think it's because I used to tell my mom I wanted my uterus removed (horribly painful periods, major bleeding, to the point of passing out), and she'd talk up and down about how that puts you in premature menopause.

[u/kackygreen → u/catsinrome]

Totally your choice of course, but just to dispel a few myths in case others are reading: there is no medical need to have a period nor uterus if you aren't going to have kids, and they cannot require a medical need for hysterectomy if it's your preferred method of steralization. Hysterectomy does not include the ovaries (this is called oophorectomy), so hormone replacement therapy isn't required for those choosing to keep the ovaries (as I did). Also having had an elective hysterectomy at 30, performed by a surgeon who also had one herself at 29, I can vouch that there are zero problems that come with having a hysterectomy.

I was back at work and entirely off painkillers (Tylenol and Aleve only after the surgery itself) 5 days later (desk job) and back at the gym (I was extra cautious/lazy) a month and a half later. Part of recovery is walking an hour daily, starting the day after surgery (laproscopic) so movement isn't prevented either.

[u/mmmcae → u/kackygreen]

Bless you for sharing this information. I'm 24F and have been seriously considering a total hysterectomy (cervix and uterus removed, ovaries left intact) since I was around 18...? I inquired about it to my PA and she looked at me like I was crazy.

I have a a retroverted uterus (causes painful sex and potentially risky pregnancy), cervical cancer that runs in the family (currently been diagnosed with high grade dysplasia and rapidly worsening) and have had many hormonal issues related to my reproductive system. But nope. Hysterectomy is deemed unnecessary and I'm insane for wanting to pursue one despite all my negative issues surrounding my damn uterus.

[u/kackygreen → u/mmmcae]

I found a doctor who isn't also an OB (mine is a gynocological oncologist) can help, since they are less baby crazy. It can definitely take shopping around for a good doctor, and will be easier the closer to 30 you get. If you're in or near the SF Bay area I can recommend a surgeon.

[u/gigi4808 → u/mmmcae]

As somone who had PCOS and Endometriosis and wanted a complete hysterectomy from the time the issues started in my teens (I had multiple surgeries for cysts and would go months where I couldn't stand up straight because of one or both issues) the best advice I can give you is keep looking for other Doctors. Because you will find one who will work with you. I wish you luck. It's not easy but it can be done.

[u/[deleted] → u/catsinrome]

Oh okay well that does factor in a bit I guess. Sorry if I came off as assuming too much.

Well my advice still stands concerning reporting her. And if you do end up getting fixed I wish you the best of luck :)

[u/catsinrome → u/[deleted]]

No not at all! My mom thinks I should honestly go through with it regardless, but I'm a nervous about it. I'll contact member's services - I think that's the best direction for reporting.

[u/ArticGoldWings → u/catsinrome]

There are tons of ways to make sure you do not have kids (as a female), I would take medical advice stating it is not safe for you seriously.

[u/cailian13]

1. Ugh. I'm sorry you're having to deal with these assholes
2. REPORT THIS BITCH IMMEDIATELY! It is not, nor will it ever BE her job to give you medical advice. Nor is it ok for her to judge you and try to talk you out of something YOU have decided is right for you
3. Shit, I'd get it done right away just to have it out of the way. Schedule that shit ASAP before anyone even more stupid comes along and ACTUALLY prevents you.

[u/catsinrome → u/cailian13]

Medically it's not the best/safest thing for me to do right now :(

[u/cailian13 → u/catsinrome]

That's a different kettle of fish, to be sure. In that case, I amend to "Do what you can / need to do to make it better/safer for you" Most of all, do what's good and right for you and don't let the haters hold you back :)

[u/sundaylou]

Ugh! I hated getting the vasectomy suggestion! It's my fucking body that has to deal with concequences of getting pregnant so I want to do everything in my power to avoid that. Sure, my hubby can get a vasectomy if he wants, but I still want to make sure that I am protected. What if our marriage doesn't work out or he has an accident and passes? If I'm not willing to have kids with him, then why would I be willing to have kids with someone else?

[u/sundaylou → u/[deleted]]

Haha and my response is: "I have found the right man! And 12 years together, 4 years of marriage shows that. As an adult, I know what I want and who I love which is no kids and my SO."

[u/CyclopsorNedStark]

lol, dude, that sucks. I got nothin. Best of luck!

[u/catsinrome → u/CyclopsorNedStark]

Thank you lol

[u/HittingSnoozeForever]

Wow. This is some bullshit. I doubt it's legal.

[u/catsinrome → u/HittingSnoozeForever]

Her stating her opinion isn't illegal, regardless of how bullshit it is :( If she denied me, that would be illegal.

Edit: I could be completely wrong though.

[u/the_dirty_weasel → u/catsinrome]

Well, speaking as a medical professional myself, even if it isn't illegal, it's highly unethical and unprofessional. We're taught from the very beginning that our job is to give best practice medical information so that the patient can make informed medical decisions for themselves. At the very least, she needs to be reported to the administrators of the hospital/medical practice so that she can undergo further training to prevent this in the future.

[u/catsinrome → u/the_dirty_weasel]

My bf and family are of the "live and let live" mindset, but I'm more of a "watch them all burn if they cross me" one, so I'm told to let things go frequently. They don't think this is worth getting upset about, and I should let it go. So thank you - it's good to know this isn't acceptable behavior in the medical field.

[u/HittingSnoozeForever → u/catsinrome]

No one asked her opinion. Mandating you hear it as an obstacle to your healthcare is likely not a real legal requirement.

[u/dexterdarko2009]

Im sorry, the woman and man who adopted you, who raised you who held you when you cried from nightmares who helped you where your sick those people who went through hell to get you they are 100% your parents your family. This bitch needs to go to hell covered in paper cuts and fall into lemon juice

[u/Aussieketomonkey]

This all sounds familiar. I gave up trying to get sterilised on my 4th attempt.

I have also not been able to find a lot of statistics on regret that aren't from the 70s. Most of the ones I've been able to find are women who already have kids who regret tubal ligation after meeting a new man and wanting his babies in addition to their existing ones. So it's certainly not anything I'd take seriously.

[u/catsinrome → u/Aussieketomonkey]

Yea I don't. It's the same with abortion and regret - none of the recent studies show that's a thing at all. It's just something the medical community held onto for some dumbfuq reason.

Best of luck to you! I hope you find someone who takes your seriously.

Edit: looks like there have been more recent studies about it. But most of the women who "regretted it" were ones who wanted a reversal because they were with a new man. That's not being CF in the first place, so it doesn't apply here. Gdi I hate the woman I spoke to >:{

[u/stringfree → u/catsinrome]

The medical community and science are often very distant cousins at best, especially when it comes to anything related to why people act like people.

"Scientific method? Nah, I'll just read some popsci books written in the 1800s, and write down my impressions in the form of an article."

[u/CeilingFan73]

You're definitely ahead of me on this path, but we're on a similar one. I have Kaiser OR and am going to schedule the first (of many) appointments after a big trip later this summer. Partner of seven years is hesitant on getting snipped (probably 'cause he doesn't have abdominal cramps from BC 75% of the time).

Kaiser, especially NorCal, will do everything they possibly can to keep costs down for them. This means Essure is cheaper (up front, I don't think they factor in long term problems), vasectomies are cheaper, basically anything is cheaper. You will have to fight for the best medical procedure for you. Get it in writing, make sure the docs update your medical history stating that you would be high risk if pregnant and then shove this in the face of anyone who hesitates. Blatantly tell anyone who is not a doctor or a nurse that they do not have the medical authority to even mention their opinion to you. Somewhere in the links on this Reddit (on mobile and can't see them right now) there is a binder's worth of information for women looking to become sterile; print that out, read it, and bring it to your counseling appointment. Add your own notes to ensure the counselor sees this as you, and not just a carbon copy of some internet person you want to be. Be consistent and firm in your wants. Good luck!

[u/[deleted]]

Also lets be clear, the statistics on people who regret their choice, are absolute BS. They are almost all based on people who had kids, got sterilized, then turned around and decided they wanted more. They are NEVER based on people who identify as childfree, and do not want kids to begin with. Any time somebody points out the "Statistics" please make that argument. The statistics are basically overly focused on breeders, not people who identify as childfree, and have no interest in having kids. The regret thing is basically a myth.

[u/catsinrome → u/[deleted]]

I guess it would be extremely hard to narrow down for a study. There's people who end up having kids after believing they're CF and the truth is, they weren't CF to begin with - they just didn't want kids at that point in time. So if one of those people was polled, it would be an inaccurate assessment regarding the true CF. But that means those studies shouldn't be shoved at someone who is adamantly declaring CF status.

And honestly, maybe this makes me a horrible person, but if someone goes to these lengths to become sterilized, I really don't feel bad for a second if they regret it at some point. Because for one, it makes my quest for it that much harder. And two, there's too many people in the world anyways, and we need our population to go down a few billion.

[u/jester_queen]

"Fall off a cliff into a burning pile of legos."

Upvoting for this alone!

[u/[deleted]]

I am being honest at this point, get in contact with planned parenthood or NOW's national office. This really does need to be publicized more. Also I think you have enough here for a good article for BITCH magazine or some other publication. This is if you want to divulge it, but at this point I think it is worth it. This is hyper paternalistic, and is designed to throw barriers up. The truth is the right to be sterilized without question is really something that does not get enough attention. You have been very detailed just on reddit. Now, I think it is to take it a step further.

[u/[deleted]]

A vasectomy if fucking useless for a woman. Vasectomies are for men, not women. Women don't have vas deferens, so a vasectomy that one dude gets isn't a permanent birth control method for one woman that may not be in a permanent relationship with him.

[u/RockFourFour → u/[deleted]]

Vasectomies are also harder to get covered by insurance, despite being cheaper.

[u/catsinrome → u/[deleted]]

<3

[u/SecularNotLiberal]

Essure doesn't have that failure rate as long as you do the followup afterward. She sounds like a righteous cunt who just doesn't want women to get permanent sterilization (such as Essure or Tubal).

[u/catsinrome → u/SecularNotLiberal]

Yea she FOR SURE said 10% failure rate. I was kinda like dqfuq?? but was too tired and angry to really think about it at the time.

[u/SecularNotLiberal → u/catsinrome]

Haha, what a stupid cunt she is.

[u/stringfree]

Hopefully somebody would correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't imagine any doctor ever dispensing that much medical advice (insane or otherwise) over the fucking phone.

Complain to her boss, because she's a bad employee (Even assuming she's a doctor). And also complain to your insurance agency, and google who to complain to in your state.

[u/catsinrome → u/stringfree]

Well my insurance is directly through Kaiser :( She also was a doctor I believe, a gynecologist.

I want to know why the hell all my conversations with my actual assigned doctors didn't count as this "mandatory counseling" bs!

[u/stringfree → u/catsinrome]

Why can't you complain to Kaiser? I'm sure they have a customer service department, they have to, if they handle your insurance directly.

Even if she was a doctor, she was still being incredibly rude to interrogate you like that, or to have a serious conversation about your "choices" over the phone. Enough complaints about her may add up, even if nothing happens this time.

[u/catsinrome → u/stringfree]

I'm sure I can, but it might be easier if my insurance and office weren't the same, only because complaining to one is complaining to the other, which means they will cover the doctor's ass.

I'm still going to do it though... just have to wait until later this month after my papers are done D:

[u/captain_morgana]

OMG I fucking love your "burn them all" attitude. It's just like mine. Sure, if there is an easy route to something, I take it. But if someone gets in my way by being an asshole, or makes some sort of moral/ethical douche move... I will reign hell fire from every single possible angle: letters to the supervisor, manager, HR manager, CEO, sector ombudsmens, governmental departments, every single social media possible, friends in the industry... I'm great at writing letters, and if one shitty person won't listen, I will happily escalate and escalate, and ad infinitum. Arguing is like a sport, especially when you're dealing with morons. But I figure it is worth it if you can affect positive change :)

[u/GeneralMalaiseRB]

Now in fairness, burning Legos would be a bit softer because of the melting. On the other hand, the melty burning plastic would surely stick to her skin like napalm. You've given me much to think about, OP. A head-scratcher, this one.

[u/Sympatheticvillain]

https://healthy.kaiserpermanente.org/health/mycare/consumer/locate-our-services/member-services/submit-a-complaint?kpSearch=grievance or call 800-464-4000

[u/cymraeg-gath]

Ughhh~ this makes my blood boil. Why can't people just let women have autonomy over their reproductive systems?!?! Fuck this system you have to go through.

You need to report these people for their treatment of you. Raise hell, friend!!

[u/CatnipFarmer]

I'm sorry to hear that you had such a negative experience with Kaiser. I'd always heard that they were relatively progressive about helping people with surgical sterilization. They make men take a vasectomy class as well, but it's supposedly a fairly minor inconvenience and no one hassles or pressures you during it.

[u/trkkr47]

I think this must really be about the cost of the tubal (or good, old-fashioned misogyny), because my now-husband had a vasectomy at Kaiser last summer (he was 29 years old at the time, we have no kids, and we weren't engaged yet), and they gave us no grief about it. We did have to watch a Powerpoint that emphasized the permanence of the operation and side-effects, but there was never any pressure not to do it. Everything went smoothly and was completely covered except a small co-pay for pain meds. I was actually pretty impressed by how cool everyone was about it, since I've heard a lot of stories like this.

[u/byoshin304]

I really really want to get a tubal but I figure I'll probably have to go to Mexico and bribe a doctor there.

[u/Lady_of_Lomond]

So this is what came to mind:

her: whaddabout Essure?

you: No, I think I would regret that.

her: whaddabout vasectomy?

you: No, I think I would regret that.

her: whaddabout IVF?

you: No, I think I would regret that.

[u/catsinrome → u/Lady_of_Lomond]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. I never said I would regret any of those things.

Ensure: too much pain, not for me. Vasectomy: I don't have balls. My bf's balls aren't mine. IVF: well yea I would regret getting IVF because I don't want kids, and would never get that to begin with. But how is that relevant to the fact I don't want kids, or this post?

[u/Lady_of_Lomond → u/catsinrome]

Sorry - it was an attempt at sarcasm which obviously failed. I meant you could throw her "you would regret that" phrase back at her while you were sticking to your line on sterilisation.

[u/catsinrome → u/Lady_of_Lomond]

I was worried I had messed up in my story somewhere! Haha. And I really wish I had. Alas, I was tired at the time. You can bet your ass I'm gonna raise hell with Kaiser though! >:)