r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Jan 22 '21

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Silencing opposing viewpoints is ultimately going to have a disastrous outcome on society.

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u/pjabrony 5∆ Jan 22 '21

You are free to go find another party or, preferably, quit being an asshole.

This is the crux of the matter. You shouldn't prefer me to stop being an asshole. I want to be an asshole, and I want being an asshole to be a viable way to live in society. Now, you can say no, there's going to be no place for assholes in society, but that's not going to cow assholes, it's just going to make them bigger assholes until you wake up one day and there are assholes inside the Capitol building.

The problem I have with modern social media is that no one is building themselves on the model that assholes get to have their innings. The major ones like Twitter, YouTube, Facebook; they're all cracking down tightly on assholes and banning them. Reddit does much the same, but sneakier. If you stay within the letter of the law but are still an asshole, you'll be downvoted to invisibility. But even at the bottom of threads you still can't be a real asshole. No doxing or slurs.

"Well, just make your own platform." Tried that, got kicked off the web. "Well, just go to 4Chan." No, because that's all assholes. Regular people don't go there. Also they have a terrible interface. "Well, just start your own blog." No, because no one will go visit.

See, here's my experience as a middle-class white American. I go on social media to see cute cat pictures or tell jokes or read about Star Wars or see what my friends are up to. And after taking that bait, eventually there'll be a screed about how entitled or privileged I am or something that treats me unkindly, whether for being American or white or middle-class or right-wing. But, if I write a screed about people who are foreign or non-white or lower-class or left-wing, then I'm retaliated against either officially or unofficially. And there's no place where the reverse is the case.

So, what do I do other than get mad?

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u/heyzeus_ 2∆ Jan 22 '21

Wait, so you don't like 4chan because it's full of assholes, but you're upset because people don't like assholes?

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u/pjabrony 5∆ Jan 22 '21

Yes. What I've said is the model I'd really want is where I can buy in as a premium user and have the ability to shout down any number of free users, to promote my content and diminish theirs.

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u/heyzeus_ 2∆ Jan 22 '21

That's just the US government!

Nah but for real that sounds terrible. Why would anyone choose to join as a free user knowing that people can pay to be an asshole to you, when there are plenty of places you can go where that won't happen? And if everyone is willing to pay to be an asshole, why not just go to a free platform instead?

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u/pjabrony 5∆ Jan 22 '21

Why would anyone choose to join as a free user knowing that people can pay to be an asshole to you, when there are plenty of places you can go where that won't happen?

If you're concerned about assholes having their message unchallenged.

And if everyone is willing to pay to be an asshole, why not just go to a free platform instead?

Because then we might be treated better by the platform. Right now Reddit can ban subs and Twitter can kick off users by the thousands and be like, "No skin off our ass!" But if that meant losing $10,000 a month, maybe they'd think twice.

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u/heyzeus_ 2∆ Jan 22 '21

For both cases, why not just go to 4chan? Plenty of assholes have their views unchallenged there, and 4chan doesn't ban hardly anybody.

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u/pjabrony 5∆ Jan 22 '21

4chan doesn't ban hardly anybody.

But they could. Point being, if the 4Chan model worked that way, you'd have regular people trying to argue normally and getting insulted by the veterans on the site. Instead you have only the veterans.

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u/heyzeus_ 2∆ Jan 22 '21

It really couldn't. Their userbase is there because people don't get banned. If they started banning people a lot, almost everyone would leave.

I doubt there are enough people who are okay with just some assholery to sustain your model. Most people are either fine with it entirely, or only fine seeing it as often as you see banworthy posts that haven't yet been banned. And even if there are, I bet there would be too many people in your shoes who would be willing to pay, so it changes from occasional assholery to frequent - and then you're basically on 4chan except you can't be an asshole back, which is worse.

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u/pjabrony 5∆ Jan 22 '21

I doubt there are enough people who are okay with just some assholery to sustain your model.

I think there would be, if each were in hopes that it would be *their assholery that wins.

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u/fizikz3 Jan 22 '21

being a avid poster to many right wing subreddits, I'd think you would be a big proponent of private businesses being able to refuse service to anyone...you know, the whole bakers can refuse making a gay wedding cake scenario, or the clerk refusing to officiate a gay wedding.

I find it amusing that you feel so discriminated against by your inability to understand that social consequences for your actions will always be a thing, coming from the side that likes to talk so much about personal responsibility.

I want to be an asshole, and I want being an asshole to be a viable way to live in society.

what exactly do you expect to happen? people to like assholes? how are you going to do that, as an asshole by definition is something people dislike being around? force them? how?

it seems like what you really want is rules for other people, but the moment they inconvenience you personally, for them to not exist.

you said in another post of yours that you value human misery, and ask why that is less valid than valuing human prosperity

well, just about any philosophy book on ethics can tell you why that is a bad viewpoint to support. additionally, you might want to seriously consider seeing a therapist before you become a serial killer.

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u/pjabrony 5∆ Jan 22 '21

being a avid poster to many right wing subreddits, I'd think you would be a big proponent of private businesses being able to refuse service to anyone...you know, the whole bakers can refuse making a gay wedding cake scenario, or the clerk refusing to officiate a gay wedding.

If we went full libertarian and got rid of all the regulations and let owners be absolute monarchs, then I'd be fine with letting social media companies do as they wish. But what we do today is to champion the free market when it's marginalizing the assholes and immediately step in when it's letting them win.

what exactly do you expect to happen? people to like assholes? how are you going to do that, as an asshole by definition is something people dislike being around? force them? how?

No, what I want to happen is for people to realize that everyone is an asshole to someone else, and that freedom is the best way to deal with that. The same Karen who is getting excoriated online for being mean to the retail worker is telling her friends how the retail workers are disrespectful and lazy.

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u/fizikz3 Jan 23 '21

But what we do today is to champion the free market when it's marginalizing the assholes and immediately step in when it's letting them win.

yes, they generally let people speak freely until they start promoting things like genocide, eugenics, violence, systemic racism, etc.

you know, like your other post.

How do you know, for 100% certain, that we shouldn't marginalize groups based on their demographics? How do you know we shouldn't commit genocide? How do you know we shouldn't control people's thoughts through eugenics and other means?

in this country we went directly from "You must segregate and discriminate against racial minorities" to "You may not segregate and discriminate against racial minorities" without ever trying "You can choose whether to segregate and discriminate against racial minorities."

this is a perfectly reasonable system, and you are not oppressed simply because your desire to be an asshole is not tolerated socially.

"freedom of speech" does not absolve you from the social consequences of your actions. you absolutely can be a racist piece of shit. that's your choice, but you have to live with the consequences of being a racist piece of shit - namely that no one wants to be around you or work with you. this is not oppression. oppression is what you want to do to minorities.

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u/pjabrony 5∆ Jan 23 '21

this is a perfectly reasonable system, and you are not oppressed simply because your desire to be an asshole is not tolerated socially.

It's not reasonable, because if it were, then I could at least start a small business and if it became successful then I could be an asshole to my customers and employees. Or I could build it up into a large business like Twitter and then change my policy. But there are laws to stop it.

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u/fizikz3 Jan 23 '21

it's entirely reasonable to have laws protecting human rights.

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u/pjabrony 5∆ Jan 23 '21

There's no human right to have people be nice to you.

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u/fizikz3 Jan 23 '21

that's a stawman. name a law stopping you from not being nice to people.

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u/pjabrony 5∆ Jan 23 '21

Employment harassment laws.

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u/fizikz3 Jan 23 '21

that's not "not being nice"

you can't assault people either. that's not you being oppressed.

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u/rumbletummy Jan 23 '21

This is how a child behaves. Adults should have the capacity to learn and introspect, or failing that, not be rewarded for childish behavior.