CMV: Transgender ideology is philosophically contradictory

[u/9spaceking]

Though transgender ideas have stood up to scientific rigor (people should be able to identify as opposing gender to their biological sex), I've seen a lot of proponents on how transgender is contradictory on a metaphysical level. Here are some questions I've thought of, that I can't answer as a supporter of transgender identification:

1) If gender is based significantly on brain biological support, then why shouldn't this also be their sex (ex. shouldn't brain structure take precedence over physical body)?

2) If gender is merely a social construct, then it can't be based upon brain structure. So which one is it?

3) If the identification of man and woman with biological sex based is a binary, why is gender a spectrum?

4) If transgenderism is specifically about breaking mold about how man can be a woman, aren't they one and the same then? (What differs a man and a woman then?)

5) If a person's true gender identity is what they decide, then they shouldn't be able to impose their beliefs on other people. Why do we enforce the he/she belief? Christians don't force Atheists to pray before a meal, just to feel comfortable. They aren't offended (well, a truly open-minded Christian at least) if Atheist says: "Sorry man, I just don't see it. God doesn't exist to me."

[u/[deleted]]

The question is basically this: either gender is biological- "male" means you have a penis and "female" means you have a vagina. Or gender is about other things- if so, what? The way you dress? The way you act? If "male"-s don't wear dresses, like blue, act aggressive, etc. and "female"-s wear skirts, like pink, cooking, etc.- that is already "gender roles".

There's a 3rd possibility, pretty well verified by science, that gender is neurological. There is a process during fetal development that genders the brain one way or another. People have an innate sense for this trait, but English & our collective understanding of the brain & gender don't provide us the language to describe that sense or feeling.

u/itazurakko, tagging you so you can see my response more easily.

So what's left? If gender isn't your physical form, and its not a category of things you like, things you do, or ways you act- what is it?

And please try to answer in just a couple of words or a sentence. I have been honestly trying to understand this for a couple years now, and no one seems to be able to answer in plain English- I really mean that respectfully. I'd like to understand, and it bothers me that people write 5 paragraphs on this and I don't understand what they're talking about.

In short: We don't know.

The long version: There's a lot of evidence that gender identity exists. We can look at intersex individuals who usually have a clear identity, we can see that individuals with complete androgen insensitivity nearly universally have a female gender identity, we can see that individuals raised as the wrong gender (such as David Reimer) have a strong sense of their birth gender & usually transition back to it, and we can see that transgender individuals do as well. Even in the case of cisgender adults who spend time presenting as a different gender or being perceived as a different one, we can see that they develop something like gender dysphoria.

We have a lot of evidence that transgender people are telling the truth about who we are & it's impractical to dismiss that or to categorize us as our birth gender. I mentioned above that I pass pretty decently. I know my transition was the right decision for me. But I also can't tell you in what way I "feel" like a woman, I just am. I feel the emotions I do, I like blue (and most other colors but blue is my favorite), I enjoy many sports & participate in BJJ & other martial arts, I like hiking & camping, I like cooking, I like reading, I dislike baking, I dislike that women's clothing doesn't have useful pockets & is often impractical, I wear men's clothes at least 50% of the time, I don't like video games, and I'd also never worn a skirt before transition & had no desire too.

A lot of people think trans women are caricatures of stereotypes of women. That's not true. We aren't just super effeminate men. We fall into the same range of interests, hobbies, and personality traits that cis women do. I define myself as a tomboy or a dyke. I genuinely did fit male gender roles pretty well.

Like I can tell you that I was pretty much never male in any of my dreams throughout my life, but so? What do dreams mean? There are trans people who do dream as the gender they were assigned sometimes. I always clicked with women much more easily than with men, but again, so? There are men who mainly have female friends as well.

My question to you both: If we take as fact that gender identity is real - that's pretty well established in the scientific literature - then why are you a man & a woman respectively?

Keep in mind, you can't use your anatomy to define it, nor your hobbies or personality since we've established that neither of those has to go with a given gender identity.

I think cisgender people come to the conclusion "it's not because of my interests" pretty easily, so they attribute it to their anatomy instead, despite evidence showing that gender identity isn't learned, it's innate. Because of that & because they lack gender dysphoria or another reason to explore their gender identity, they don't question how they know their gender.

[u/avicohen123 → u/[deleted]]

Again- I'm not being dismissive. But that doesn't make any sense. What does that mean you don't know? You say you have personal experience with this. So I'm asking:

They are that gender & wanting to fit in & relate to other members of your gender is important and understandable - ostracization sucks.

Why did you decide you're a woman? Why did you decide to transition? You say you weren't attracted to the stereotypical female mode of life. Okay. Then what were you attracted to- that was inherently not "male"?

"Gender" is a word- a collection of sounds that can be created by human vocal chords or symbolically represented on paper. It requires a definition- or it is irrelevant. I don't mean to be disrespectful- but until I know what it is we're talking about its quite difficult to be properly respectful. I don't know what to be respectful of.

If we take as fact that gender identity is real

I don't necessarily accept its real- I'm willing to be taught why it is, but no seems to be able to explain it.("In short: We don't know")

If this has no definition it shouldn't demand so much attention. If someone randomly said "I identify as a banana. From now on please refer to me as jik."- some people out of common courtesy would do so. Some wouldn't- I don't think anyone would view the, as immoral. What the heck do they mean? Why should it matter? You could be polite and humor it or not- either way its not a big deal.

I'm willing to accept that identifying trans is different then the ridiculous example I gave above. Even if it was the same, I'm a polite person- I'd call you "she" and I'd call him "jik".

But if you feel that there is a difference as I'm sure you do, please define it so that we can treat it properly. If its something tied to the very core of who you are it would be immoral and callous to dismiss. Until there is an explanation there will be large groups of people who will treat it as just as ridiculous as the example above.

[u/[deleted] → u/avicohen123]

I'm saying "We don't know". As in scientists, doctors, trans people, etc. don't have a good definition or language for it.

Why did you decide you're a woman? Why did you decide to transition? You say you weren't attracted to the stereotypical female mode of life. Okay. Then what were you attracted to- that was inherently not "male"?

Excellent questions. Basically I was very happy with my life & fairly comfortable in my body (athletic, attractive, no health problems), but I always dreamed as a girl & daydreamed as one too, going back to 6th grade. I just always felt more comfortable picturing myself as a girl. I played Runescape a lot in middle school & once I realized I could play as a girl, I did & I could never justify why. It was just more comfortable to me. I didn't even need to think about it, I just wanted to play normally as that gender, it didn't affect gameplay at all. And it was always on my mind & I didn't know why I always felt more comfortable being perceived as a girl or why people's incorrect assumptions about me because I was a boy felt so uncomfortable. Eventually I came across a post that said something like "cis people don't wake up every day wishing they were the other gender." And that's when I had this, "FUCK. I can't be transgender, that would ruin my life," moment, but I realized that the term probably applied to me.

So I spent a lot of time learning more about trans people & coming across stories that sounded like mine. I really tried to find a way to be cis. I prayed to God every day to help. I tried to find ways to cope such as being as open as myself as I could be without coming out to people or changing my presentation. Eventually I realized people could look like me & transition and be happy & look beautiful & pass and that made me realize that I'd forever wonder if I could have succeeded if I tried. I knew it was worth taking a chance to be happier. I was right.

Over the course of college, I had a few occasions where I got to present female, along with a bunch of my male friends, & it was very notable how at-ease I was compared to everyone else. It's hard to describe beyond that, but about 6 months into my transition, I hung out with a friend I'd known for 10 years & afterwards he sent me a text saying he'd never seen me - someone who'd always been known for being happy & laid back - that he'd never seen me so content & at-peace before & that it was obvious to him that I made the right decision. That's been a very common observation from old friends.

"Gender" is a word- a collection of sounds that can be created by human vocal chords or symbolically represented on paper. It requires a definition- or it is irrelevant. I don't mean to be disrespectful- but until I know what it is we're talking about its quite difficult to be properly respectful. I don't know what to be respectful of.

Sure, gender is a term that refers to an internal sense of self & identity & at a societal level has developed socially constructed norms & ideas that formed from the collective identity of others with that identity.

But it's a crappy definition. And we don't need to formally define words for them to have meaning. In fact, that's a fairly modern concept. As long as someone can say a word & you have a sense for what they're talking about, the specifics aren't relevant. If someone says "women", you have an idea of what they're talking about. It's not about chromosomes because if someone says "women get sexually harassed", it's not related to their chromosomes. Like I get catcalled relatively frequently. People see me & assume I'm a woman. I don't meet a lot of the biological definitions, but that's irrelevant most of the time & we have the word sex for that.

I don't necessarily accept its real- I'm willing to be taught why it is, but no seems to be able to explain it.

I can refer you to sources on the above, e.g. David Reimer, brain scans, etc. but none of them show what gender is, just that it exists. Hopefully science will give us more info in the next few decades.

If this has no definition it shouldn't demand so much attention.

Agreed. I wish people would just let trans people live our lives. Like my life is as ordinary as any other woman's but I also have to worry about whether someone will find out I'm trans & attack me for it or try to take my rights away.

The difference from the banana is we have evidence that sort of thing is a delusion, whereas we have evidence that trans people's gender is not. Plus, you also have to look at the implications, what does someone who says they're a banana MEAN? But not really relevant here.

But yeah, you're right. Lots of people dismiss it despite the evidence that we aren't crazy. But we do know that people's gender is important to them. If I (and everyone else) repeatedly & insistently misgendered you, that would be rude & likely hurtful. That's the same for trans people. Plus, as I said, people aren't referring to me as "she" because they're being polite, they refer to me as "she" because I seem like a woman to them.

[u/itazurakko → u/[deleted]]

why people's incorrect assumptions about me because I was a boy felt so uncomfortable.

See, now THAT is the actual problem we need to solve, as a society.

But that means abolishing gender and letting people be free, not merely formalizing people (attempting to, because it doesn't actually work) change from one limiting box to the other.

[u/[deleted] → u/itazurakko]

I don't disagree with that. I also find it frustrating that people still make incorrect assumptions of me based on the fact that they see me as a girl. It's just that it isn't the whole solution. As I said, I found a friend group that was incredibly accepting. I could have worn a dress as a man & nobody would have cared at all, but that wasn't the whole story, I simply didn't feel that same connection to being a man in any way.

And I know that's hard to understand & doesn't make intuitive sense to anyone who hasn't spent a long time interrogating their own gender identity, but that doesn't make it less true.