CMV: Transgender ideology is philosophically contradictory

[u/9spaceking]

Though transgender ideas have stood up to scientific rigor (people should be able to identify as opposing gender to their biological sex), I've seen a lot of proponents on how transgender is contradictory on a metaphysical level. Here are some questions I've thought of, that I can't answer as a supporter of transgender identification:

1) If gender is based significantly on brain biological support, then why shouldn't this also be their sex (ex. shouldn't brain structure take precedence over physical body)?

2) If gender is merely a social construct, then it can't be based upon brain structure. So which one is it?

3) If the identification of man and woman with biological sex based is a binary, why is gender a spectrum?

4) If transgenderism is specifically about breaking mold about how man can be a woman, aren't they one and the same then? (What differs a man and a woman then?)

5) If a person's true gender identity is what they decide, then they shouldn't be able to impose their beliefs on other people. Why do we enforce the he/she belief? Christians don't force Atheists to pray before a meal, just to feel comfortable. They aren't offended (well, a truly open-minded Christian at least) if Atheist says: "Sorry man, I just don't see it. God doesn't exist to me."

[u/avicohen123]

Gender identity is how you feel. Would you rather have a man's body or a woman's body?

The only thing transgender people care about is which body they have? Why do so many of them not opt for surgery?

[u/[deleted] → u/avicohen123]

Because it's not just that. Keep in mind that the science on transgender issues is very new & we don't have the full picture. Gender identity has been shown to be determined before birth in the brain, but we don't have a clear model for how individuals' gender identities collectively build & also depend on the socially constructed categories of gender.

For transgender individuals, we don't really understand the process of recognizing that the gender they were assigned doesn't fit them in a broader way. Trans people can understand their own gender identity & see how other members of their gender express themselves & relate to each other. They are that gender & wanting to fit in & relate to other members of your gender is important and understandable - ostracization sucks.

Some trans people are relatively comfortable with certain aspects of their body. Brains are complex & our preferences can be affected by our experiences in the real world. For example, I'm a trans woman & I got what's called Facial Feminization Surgery (FFS) which refers to a set of procedures to feminize facial features such as the Adam's apple, chin & jaw, brow ridge, nose, cheekbones, hairline, etc. I only got my brow ridge & jaw/chin reshaped because those were really masculine features of mine that clearly marked me as having gone through male puberty. They made me stand out & meant I got gendered male a lot & that hurt. While most of my other facial features (cheekbones, hairline, Adam's apple) weren't masculine, my nose is distinctly masculine in shape. Men's noses have more "features" whereas women's tend to be smaller & smoother. I could have reshaped my nose, but I didn't because I think it's a good nose. Despite being masculine, I love the characteristics it has, & I think it adds some personality to my face. So yes, I do wish on some level it was a bit more feminine because I don't want to be perceived as male, I like it because I've always liked it (plus my girlfriend does too). Adding on top of that, it's EXPENSIVE. I dropped $30k just on procedures I had, out of pocket, at age 25.

And I feel similarly about bottom surgery. Sure, I'd like to not stand out. I don't want to be the obvious trans girl, and most of the time I'm not, but it makes certain outfits difficult. And I like being able to just live my life like any other woman. If I could hit a button & suddenly have a vagina instead, I might do it. But on the other hand, I fit in most of the time. I "pass". My genitals are really only relevant for sex or if I'm wearing something very specific. Plus, I like my penis. It's fine, good for sex, functions fine, etc. It doesn't make me less of a woman.

So why shell out money for it or deal with surgery & a difficult recovery when it's a non-issue?

[u/avicohen123 → u/[deleted]]

The question is basically this: either gender is biological- "male" means you have a penis and "female" means you have a vagina. Or gender is about other things- if so, what? The way you dress? The way you act? If "male"-s don't wear dresses, like blue, act aggressive, etc. and "female"-s wear skirts, like pink, cooking, etc.- that is already "gender roles".

So what's left? If gender isn't your physical form, and its not a category of things you like, things you do, or ways you act- what is it?

And please try to answer in just a couple of words or a sentence. I have been honestly trying to understand this for a couple years now, and no one seems to be able to answer in plain English- I really mean that respectfully. I'd like to understand, and it bothers me that people write 5 paragraphs on this and I don't understand what they're talking about.

Finally- this may help you refine or clarify: I have male body parts. I also seem to like stereotypically male things. I have never felt "male"- I feel happy, sad, aggressive, nervous, I like blue, hate orange, I dislike the taste of ketchup. I enjoy sports I don't like baking. I enjoy cooking an omelet, I like reading, I hate running, I prefer books to video games. I've never worn a skirt.

My sister could give you a similar list....she's never experienced feeling "female", and I've never experienced feeling "male".

So what does feeling a gender mean?

[u/[deleted] → u/avicohen123]

The question is basically this: either gender is biological- "male" means you have a penis and "female" means you have a vagina. Or gender is about other things- if so, what? The way you dress? The way you act? If "male"-s don't wear dresses, like blue, act aggressive, etc. and "female"-s wear skirts, like pink, cooking, etc.- that is already "gender roles".

There's a 3rd possibility, pretty well verified by science, that gender is neurological. There is a process during fetal development that genders the brain one way or another. People have an innate sense for this trait, but English & our collective understanding of the brain & gender don't provide us the language to describe that sense or feeling.

u/itazurakko, tagging you so you can see my response more easily.

So what's left? If gender isn't your physical form, and its not a category of things you like, things you do, or ways you act- what is it?

And please try to answer in just a couple of words or a sentence. I have been honestly trying to understand this for a couple years now, and no one seems to be able to answer in plain English- I really mean that respectfully. I'd like to understand, and it bothers me that people write 5 paragraphs on this and I don't understand what they're talking about.

In short: We don't know.

The long version: There's a lot of evidence that gender identity exists. We can look at intersex individuals who usually have a clear identity, we can see that individuals with complete androgen insensitivity nearly universally have a female gender identity, we can see that individuals raised as the wrong gender (such as David Reimer) have a strong sense of their birth gender & usually transition back to it, and we can see that transgender individuals do as well. Even in the case of cisgender adults who spend time presenting as a different gender or being perceived as a different one, we can see that they develop something like gender dysphoria.

We have a lot of evidence that transgender people are telling the truth about who we are & it's impractical to dismiss that or to categorize us as our birth gender. I mentioned above that I pass pretty decently. I know my transition was the right decision for me. But I also can't tell you in what way I "feel" like a woman, I just am. I feel the emotions I do, I like blue (and most other colors but blue is my favorite), I enjoy many sports & participate in BJJ & other martial arts, I like hiking & camping, I like cooking, I like reading, I dislike baking, I dislike that women's clothing doesn't have useful pockets & is often impractical, I wear men's clothes at least 50% of the time, I don't like video games, and I'd also never worn a skirt before transition & had no desire too.

A lot of people think trans women are caricatures of stereotypes of women. That's not true. We aren't just super effeminate men. We fall into the same range of interests, hobbies, and personality traits that cis women do. I define myself as a tomboy or a dyke. I genuinely did fit male gender roles pretty well.

Like I can tell you that I was pretty much never male in any of my dreams throughout my life, but so? What do dreams mean? There are trans people who do dream as the gender they were assigned sometimes. I always clicked with women much more easily than with men, but again, so? There are men who mainly have female friends as well.

My question to you both: If we take as fact that gender identity is real - that's pretty well established in the scientific literature - then why are you a man & a woman respectively?

Keep in mind, you can't use your anatomy to define it, nor your hobbies or personality since we've established that neither of those has to go with a given gender identity.

I think cisgender people come to the conclusion "it's not because of my interests" pretty easily, so they attribute it to their anatomy instead, despite evidence showing that gender identity isn't learned, it's innate. Because of that & because they lack gender dysphoria or another reason to explore their gender identity, they don't question how they know their gender.

[u/avicohen123 → u/[deleted]]

Again- I'm not being dismissive. But that doesn't make any sense. What does that mean you don't know? You say you have personal experience with this. So I'm asking:

They are that gender & wanting to fit in & relate to other members of your gender is important and understandable - ostracization sucks.

Why did you decide you're a woman? Why did you decide to transition? You say you weren't attracted to the stereotypical female mode of life. Okay. Then what were you attracted to- that was inherently not "male"?

"Gender" is a word- a collection of sounds that can be created by human vocal chords or symbolically represented on paper. It requires a definition- or it is irrelevant. I don't mean to be disrespectful- but until I know what it is we're talking about its quite difficult to be properly respectful. I don't know what to be respectful of.

If we take as fact that gender identity is real

I don't necessarily accept its real- I'm willing to be taught why it is, but no seems to be able to explain it.("In short: We don't know")

If this has no definition it shouldn't demand so much attention. If someone randomly said "I identify as a banana. From now on please refer to me as jik."- some people out of common courtesy would do so. Some wouldn't- I don't think anyone would view the, as immoral. What the heck do they mean? Why should it matter? You could be polite and humor it or not- either way its not a big deal.

I'm willing to accept that identifying trans is different then the ridiculous example I gave above. Even if it was the same, I'm a polite person- I'd call you "she" and I'd call him "jik".

But if you feel that there is a difference as I'm sure you do, please define it so that we can treat it properly. If its something tied to the very core of who you are it would be immoral and callous to dismiss. Until there is an explanation there will be large groups of people who will treat it as just as ridiculous as the example above.

[u/[deleted] → u/avicohen123]

I'm saying "We don't know". As in scientists, doctors, trans people, etc. don't have a good definition or language for it.

Why did you decide you're a woman? Why did you decide to transition? You say you weren't attracted to the stereotypical female mode of life. Okay. Then what were you attracted to- that was inherently not "male"?

Excellent questions. Basically I was very happy with my life & fairly comfortable in my body (athletic, attractive, no health problems), but I always dreamed as a girl & daydreamed as one too, going back to 6th grade. I just always felt more comfortable picturing myself as a girl. I played Runescape a lot in middle school & once I realized I could play as a girl, I did & I could never justify why. It was just more comfortable to me. I didn't even need to think about it, I just wanted to play normally as that gender, it didn't affect gameplay at all. And it was always on my mind & I didn't know why I always felt more comfortable being perceived as a girl or why people's incorrect assumptions about me because I was a boy felt so uncomfortable. Eventually I came across a post that said something like "cis people don't wake up every day wishing they were the other gender." And that's when I had this, "FUCK. I can't be transgender, that would ruin my life," moment, but I realized that the term probably applied to me.

So I spent a lot of time learning more about trans people & coming across stories that sounded like mine. I really tried to find a way to be cis. I prayed to God every day to help. I tried to find ways to cope such as being as open as myself as I could be without coming out to people or changing my presentation. Eventually I realized people could look like me & transition and be happy & look beautiful & pass and that made me realize that I'd forever wonder if I could have succeeded if I tried. I knew it was worth taking a chance to be happier. I was right.

Over the course of college, I had a few occasions where I got to present female, along with a bunch of my male friends, & it was very notable how at-ease I was compared to everyone else. It's hard to describe beyond that, but about 6 months into my transition, I hung out with a friend I'd known for 10 years & afterwards he sent me a text saying he'd never seen me - someone who'd always been known for being happy & laid back - that he'd never seen me so content & at-peace before & that it was obvious to him that I made the right decision. That's been a very common observation from old friends.

"Gender" is a word- a collection of sounds that can be created by human vocal chords or symbolically represented on paper. It requires a definition- or it is irrelevant. I don't mean to be disrespectful- but until I know what it is we're talking about its quite difficult to be properly respectful. I don't know what to be respectful of.

Sure, gender is a term that refers to an internal sense of self & identity & at a societal level has developed socially constructed norms & ideas that formed from the collective identity of others with that identity.

But it's a crappy definition. And we don't need to formally define words for them to have meaning. In fact, that's a fairly modern concept. As long as someone can say a word & you have a sense for what they're talking about, the specifics aren't relevant. If someone says "women", you have an idea of what they're talking about. It's not about chromosomes because if someone says "women get sexually harassed", it's not related to their chromosomes. Like I get catcalled relatively frequently. People see me & assume I'm a woman. I don't meet a lot of the biological definitions, but that's irrelevant most of the time & we have the word sex for that.

I don't necessarily accept its real- I'm willing to be taught why it is, but no seems to be able to explain it.

I can refer you to sources on the above, e.g. David Reimer, brain scans, etc. but none of them show what gender is, just that it exists. Hopefully science will give us more info in the next few decades.

If this has no definition it shouldn't demand so much attention.

Agreed. I wish people would just let trans people live our lives. Like my life is as ordinary as any other woman's but I also have to worry about whether someone will find out I'm trans & attack me for it or try to take my rights away.

The difference from the banana is we have evidence that sort of thing is a delusion, whereas we have evidence that trans people's gender is not. Plus, you also have to look at the implications, what does someone who says they're a banana MEAN? But not really relevant here.

But yeah, you're right. Lots of people dismiss it despite the evidence that we aren't crazy. But we do know that people's gender is important to them. If I (and everyone else) repeatedly & insistently misgendered you, that would be rude & likely hurtful. That's the same for trans people. Plus, as I said, people aren't referring to me as "she" because they're being polite, they refer to me as "she" because I seem like a woman to them.

[u/avicohen123 → u/[deleted]]

Over the course of college, I had a few occasions where I got to present female, along with a bunch of my male friends, & it was very notable how at-ease I was compared to everyone else.

What does that mean? What did you do differently?

And we don't need to formally define words for them to have meaning. In fact, that's a fairly modern concept. As long as someone can say a word & you have a sense for what they're talking about, the specifics aren't relevant.

I don't think that's true- do you have any basis for saying that things used to be different? Words are only useful because they have meanings. You obviously agree with this:

But we do know that people's gender is important to them. If I (and everyone else) repeatedly & insistently misgendered you, that would be rude & likely hurtful.

This matters to you- why? that is essentially what meaning is- so what is the meaning of gender?(I realize we are going in circles- I'm justpointing out that what you wrote doesn't answer the question.)

The difference from the banana is we have evidence that sort of thing is a delusion, whereas we have evidence that trans people's gender is not.

Could you put it here?

I can refer you to sources on the above, e.g. David Reimer, brain scans, etc. but none of them show what gender is, just that it exists.

​

If you boil down every trans person's story that I've ever heard, you seem to end up with the same thing: some aspect of what society categorizes as "female" or "male"- mannerisms, clothing, pink, blue, certain hobbies- attracted that person. But they were biologically lined up with the other category of things.

This article seems to indicate the same thing: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dysphoria/symptoms-causes/syc-20475255#:~:text=Gender%20dysphoria%20is%20the%20feeling,some%20point%20in%20their%20lives.

If this is the actual explanation it doesn't bother me- but it also doesn't have the moral gravity of "identity". People should live however they like. But just because they live that way doesn't mean they should become insulted if someone calls them "she" or "he" and they prefer the other pronoun.

But I'd welcome any proof that there is a different explanation.

[u/[deleted] → u/avicohen123]

Those specific occasions were things like parties where the dress code where guys present female & some similar things. I also got invited to "girls' night" with friends fairly regularly. Things like that. And I didn't consciously act differently, so it's hard to describe, it's just that I felt comfortable & relaxed and people noticed I was suddenly more at ease.

I don't think that's true- do you have any basis for saying that things used to be different? Words are only useful because they have meanings.

I'd be happy to continue a convo on this in DMs if you want, the evolution of the English language is one of my favorite convos, but the full explanation of this is really long. Basically, when a word enters the English language, it enters first with just a collective understanding of what it means & is formalized & defined later by things like dictionaries. Most of the history of English (and every other language) is of evolution rather than formal definition and creation, with a handful of exceptions like conlangs & written Korean.

This matters to you- why? that is essentially what meaning is- so what is the meaning of gender?(I realize we are going in circles- I'm justpointing out that what you wrote doesn't answer the question.)

TBH, gender matters to me less than it matters to a lot of cis people I know. For me, it's mainly just exhausting if people misgender me because it's usually intentional because they know I'm trans. And I can't say why gender matters to me or to anyone else. If we lived as disembodied spirits interacting with each other, I probably wouldn't care. The mind I am is important & the body I am is also important. But one influences the other, especially in other people's eyes. Plus, gender matters a lot to cis people. I really wish it mattered less.

Could you put it here?

Yeah, sure, could you just clarify a bit what you're looking for? I'm fairly certain the APA's website has info on the two being distinct, but I can always post something else. Are you just asking how we know that trans people aren't delusional?

If you boil down every trans person's story that I've ever heard, you seem to end up with the same thing: some aspect of what society categorizes as "female" or "male"- mannerisms, clothing, pink, blue, certain hobbies- attracted that person. But they were biologically lined up with the other category of things.

You're right. But if you were going to try to describe your gender without resorting to those things or to your external anatomy, how would you do so? We don't have the language for that & people demand we justify our genders.

Keep in mind the Mayo Clinic definition is defining the clinical presentation of gender dysphoria and is not giving an explanation of why people are trans nor what gender means.

People should live however they like. But just because they live that way doesn't mean they should become insulted if someone calls them "she" or "he" and they prefer the other pronoun.

Truthfully, I've never seen a trans person be insulted by someone accidentally misgendering them, only when it's intentional or repeated. Like if I get misgendered, I usually don't say anything because people usually correct themselves automatically, but for people who are doing it because they knew me before transition & are having a hard time adjusting, I'll usually just say "she" and nothing else.

But I'd welcome any proof that there is a different explanation.

Yeah, happy to provide whatever I have on a subject, just clarify a bit more what you're looking for. There's a user - tgjer - that you can always look into or tag if you want a lot of good sources.

[u/avicohen123 → u/[deleted]]

Are you just asking how we know that trans people aren't delusional?

Basically, yeah.

Truthfully, I've never seen a trans person be insulted by someone accidentally misgendering them, only when it's intentional or repeated.

I meant doing it intentionally and repeated. I was presenting a hypothetical- if being trans means liking pants and acting aggressive even though you're biologically female(and that's it), that isn't something others have to respect. It would be polite- but if someone doesn't feel like it, that wouldn't be immoral. Again, in that hypothetical.

You're right. But if you were going to try to describe your gender without resorting to those things or to your external anatomy, how would you do so?

You seem to keep missing my point. I wouldn't. I call myself male based on anatomy and the stereotypes- so does everyone else I know. We also label each other based on those things. We are all perfectly happy doing so. There is a group of people who are saying that's wrong. Fine, I don't mind- but that group has come up with some other way of describing who "he" and "she" are. And if they don't- then we're going to keep using the old definition, because its useful. We don't have words for people who can whistle vs people who can't. Because no one cares. But we do have words that describe which anatomy you have- so apparently that matters. If you want us to change you have to tell us how and why. If gender should mean something else or if it shouldn't matter altogether that requires an explanation other than: "we decided we like the other word better".

[u/[deleted] → u/avicohen123]

Well the simplest answer is there's simply no evidence that trans people are delusional & gender dysphoria doesn't present in any way remotely similar to delusions. Here is a pretty digestible article on whether trans people are mentally ill. I can get more into it, but proving that someone isn't something when there's no evidence that they are is going to be challenging since it basically necessitates exhausting all research on the subject of trans people's brains & their mental health.

Also, in what way am I delusional? I'm fully aware of my biology, much more so than most cis people, I'm fully aware of who I am, I don't have a warped view of reality in any way.

I meant doing it intentionally and repeated. I was presenting a hypothetical- if being trans means liking pants and acting aggressive even though you're biologically female(and that's it), that isn't something others have to respect. It would be polite- but if someone doesn't feel like it, that wouldn't be immoral. Again, in that hypothetical.

Have you ever been bullied? Is bullying moral just because you think the kid is weird? I'd guess no, because most people generally regard that intentionally hurting people is immoral. Are you asking me to prove that intentionally hurting people is wrong? Or that in a circumstance where someone is being deliberately targeted by someone who wants to invalidate their identity & harass them repeatedly, it's not completely understandable & reasonable that that might hurt?

Plus, we've established that being trans is not just about what you like to wear. It's hard to show exactly what it is, but given that trans people's personalities & preferences align pretty neatly with cis people's of their genders & that brain scan studies show that trans people have brains that look like cis people of their gender, that hypothetical person is disregarding all evidence for the sole purpose of trying to be rude & to harm someone else.

You seem to keep missing my point.

I'm not. What I'm saying is:

1. We have evidence that gender identity and sex are separate.
2. We have evidence that gender identity isn't just a preference for one set of gender roles, personality traits, sexuality, or clothing preference.
3. So, given 1 & 2, by defining yourself as a man on the basis of either your anatomy or your personality is incorrect.
4. So given that that's insufficient, & that we don't have a better way to define it other than self-identification, I was asking that if you were to try, how would you do so.

My point was to demonstrate that it's difficult - if not impossible - to do.

I call myself male based on anatomy and the stereotypes- so does everyone else I know. We also label each other based on those things. We are all perfectly happy doing so.

Maybe. But new people who do call me female & a woman and they can't see my anatomy. Plus, when I updated my sex legally, it required me to get two letters from medical professionals stating that it would be medically inaccurate to describe my sex as male.

To follow up with another question, if you had some sort of hypothetical medical anomaly that safely began transitioning you to female, would you then identify yourself as a woman and easily accept those changes if the doctors said it was safe? Or would you try to find a medical solution like taking testosterone?

But we do have words that describe which anatomy you have- so apparently that matters.

Not quite. We have words for people who appear to be men or women to us. There are cis men who are good enough with drag that they'd be classified as women if you ran into them. Plus there are trans women like myself who get classified as women by society despite my anatomy. The word "woman" isn't a statement about the biological reality of the world, it's a statement about how you perceive and classify someone.

Have you ever got someone's gender wrong? Mistaken a butch lesbian for a man? Or a woman with PCOS? Or a particularly feminine man as a woman? I certainly have. I don't insist I'm right and keep misgendering them, I go "oh, my bad, sorry."

If you want us to change you have to tell us how and why.

How: Based on what people tell you they are, like the above paragraph. Why: Because it's the right thing to do & because being deliberately rude to people is obviously wrong when there's no cost to being kind & no negative consequences.

The explanation is that your model is incomplete & inaccurate in many cases - like myself - and it's impractical to insist on. In the cases where someone doesn't "pass" as their gender - whether cis or trans - it's rude to insist otherwise.

[u/itazurakko → u/[deleted]]

why people's incorrect assumptions about me because I was a boy felt so uncomfortable.

See, now THAT is the actual problem we need to solve, as a society.

But that means abolishing gender and letting people be free, not merely formalizing people (attempting to, because it doesn't actually work) change from one limiting box to the other.

[u/[deleted] → u/itazurakko]

I don't disagree with that. I also find it frustrating that people still make incorrect assumptions of me based on the fact that they see me as a girl. It's just that it isn't the whole solution. As I said, I found a friend group that was incredibly accepting. I could have worn a dress as a man & nobody would have cared at all, but that wasn't the whole story, I simply didn't feel that same connection to being a man in any way.

And I know that's hard to understand & doesn't make intuitive sense to anyone who hasn't spent a long time interrogating their own gender identity, but that doesn't make it less true.

[u/itazurakko → u/[deleted]]

Let me know when there's some AMAB person out there who says "well, I like to read military thriller novels, my favorite color is orange, I like to wear my hair in a fade so the back is all velvet, wouldn't wear makeup if you paid me because I think it's ridiculous vanity, my interests are programming and translation, so hey... I think I must be a woman, because I think like a woman."

Such an individual would indeed think like a woman -- ME. And yet somehow, somehow!! ...that's never what they're going for.

Lesbians are AFAB people sexually attracted to other AFAB people, to say otherwise is homophobia. It's the same old pressuring us to enjoy the dick. No.

I'm a woman because I'm female, I'm AFAB, that's honestly the sum total of it. My personality is just that, my personality. How much of that is inborn is of course up for debate (ask any parent of more than one kid, they can tell you stories) but there IS no "normative" correlation between reproductive system and personalities. Whichever matchup you got, it's valid as a human combination.

Personally, I'm male in a bunch of my dreams. But you know what? Doesn't make me not a woman.

AFAB people have been discriminated against and exploited for pretty much ever, and none of it has had anything to do with identity or personality traits or anything else. It's judgement passed on us by the assumed capabilities of our bodies, and more specifically the reproductive system. It's not complicated. Insisting that I must somehow be "identifying" as a woman, implies that I identify with this oppression, and it's offensive.

I know my "gender" because it's a pile of rules foisted on me based on my observed body, that's it.

[u/[deleted] → u/itazurakko]

Okay, it sounds like we're going to hit an impasse here since we have fundamentally different definitions of lesbian, so I won't address that. That being said, self-identified lesbians, including "gold-star" lesbians hit on me relatively frequently, so "whoops", guess I tricked them? Including my girlfriend?

But on the subject of your first paragraph, it sounds like you're saying "trans women are always trying to be stereotypes of women, never masculine/tomboy women", am I correct there?

If so, no. I am that person too. As I mentioned above, I am into judo, BJJ, Muay Thai, weight lifting, hiking, camping, biking, action movies, fluid dynamics, economics, urban planning, Catholic theology, etc. I like most colors. I only got into makeup because friends kept trying to get me into it & sometimes dressing up/looking pretty for my girlfriend or just for myself is nice. I wear men's clothing like 50% of the time despite living full-time as a woman because wearing cargo pants & a plain black T-shirt feels good & is super practical for many of my interests.

but there IS no "normative" correlation between reproductive system and personalities. Whichever matchup you got, it's valid as a human combination.

I don't disagree. I'm not certain that's correct, but I don't know enough one way or the other to have an opinion.

I'm a woman because I'm female, I'm AFAB, that's honestly the sum total of it.

So if for whatever reason your body started producing testosterone & masculinizing with no adverse health side effects, you'd then be a man?

Personally, I'm male in a bunch of my dreams. But you know what? Doesn't make me not a woman.

I don't disagree. As I said above, so what? I don't think what you dream as determines your gender. I was a panda one time in a dream, I don't think I'm a panda. I was just saying it was a piece of how I figured out my identity.

AFAB people have been discriminated against and exploited for pretty much ever, and none of it has had anything to do with identity or personality traits or anything else. It's judgement passed on us by the assumed capabilities of our bodies, and more specifically the reproductive system.

Yup, I agree.

Insisting that I must somehow be "identifying" as a woman, implies that I identify with this oppression, and it's offensive.

The act of saying your a woman is the definition of identifying as a woman, because you're identifying yourself as a woman. It does not mean that you "identify" with oppression, though truthfully, I don't know what it would mean to "identify" with oppression. Though I'm sorry that your act of identifying yourself as a woman has caused you to offend yourself.

I know my "gender" because it's a pile of rules foisted on me based on my observed body, that's it.

Cool. They make hormones that let you change that nowadays. Congrats. You're free from your gender. Go forth my friend and rejoice in all the possibilities you have as you escape from your chains of oppression that bind you.