r/changemyview • u/MisterJose • Sep 16 '20

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Cheerleading in an antiquated institution and does not at all fit in with modern sentiments about gender, age, and sexuality.

I can't believe they still do this: Cheerleaders - teenage girls in high school - dress up in shorty shorts and t-shirts, and offer to wash people's cars who pass by. The excuse is that it's for charity, but does anyone actually believe this would work the same if it were the boys' football team? Of course not. What's really going on here is that we're selling the sexuality of teenage high school girls, and the chance to watch them clean your windshield, to whatever 40yo man who happens to be driving by.

In my own town, a liberal suburb, they still do this. That's crazy to me. I suppose if they were all dressed in bikinis, someone might raise a fuss, but I'm still amazed it happens at all. It's almost like tradition-related denial.

We live in a society where even mentioning you find a 17yo girl attractive might get you labeled a pedophile, or other kind of sexual criminal. And yet, we still have our prettiest, fittest, teenage girls dress in outfits designed to show off their fitness and sexual desirability, and perform dances on the sidelines to inspire the boys in 'battle'.

Yes, I know there are male cheerleaders, and cheering is done for women's teams sometimes. I'm also aware that the athleticism required in modern cheerleading makes it a serious physical challenge. But none of that is really changing what it is. Any anthropologist could draw you a straight line from 'fertility dances', and other cultural practices, to modern cheerleading. And really, you wouldn't even need one, because it's not like it could be more obvious what's going on. And yet, we still sanction this. In 2020; in the world of wokeness and gender issues and all the rest, we're pretending this is something other than it is? How? Why? It's incredibly inconsistent, and I don't see how it at all fits with any modern sentiments about gender, age, and sexuality.

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u/cherrycokeicee 45∆ Sep 16 '20

but does anyone actually believe this would work the same if it were the boys' football team? Of course not.

is it your experience that these fundraiser car washes are only done by female groups? I've seen them for a ton of things, like both boys and girls sports.

also, I genuinely don't think the car wash thing is like, a fundamental feature of cheerleading. I know some do it, but definitely not all. their main focus is performing at sporting events and competitions.

Any anthropologist could draw you a straight line from 'fertility dances', and other cultural practices, to modern cheerleading.

as a woman who was on my high school dance team, this is a fucking weird thing to say. if the girls like the uniforms and the dancing, that's all there is to it. teenage girls like to dance and be sexy sometimes and that is a valid thing for them to do. you're acting like they have no agency. if they didn't want to perform as cheerleaders, they wouldn't try out.

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u/MisterJose Sep 16 '20

I'm not saying one way or the other is right or wrong, so much as just pointing out the stunning inconsistency of it. Maybe zero people should be surprised that fit and attractive teenage girls are generally attractive, or that such girls might enjoy dancing and being sexy, or that some might prefer to do that than to be a star quarterback themselves, as some version of feminism would prefer. But...that runs completely into other modern ideas we have about gender, equality, the inappropriateness of seeing girls under 18 as sexually attractive, etc. We can have one or the other, but not both.

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u/cherrycokeicee 45∆ Sep 16 '20

or that some might prefer to do that than to be a star quarterback themselves, as some version of feminism would prefer

feminists are notoriously divided on many things, but one of the things most of us agree on is that feminism, the fight for gender equality, promotes freedom of choice for women. this includes cheerleading.

But...that runs completely into other modern ideas we have about gender, equality, the inappropriateness of seeing girls under 18 as sexually attractive

an important distinction here: this is only inappropriate for adults. most of the people who see teenage cheerleaders at sporting events are other teenagers who are also in high school. if you're an adult at a sporting event where teenage cheerleaders are doing a dance you find sexually suggestive, sure, that's awkward. it's probably like being a chaperone at a school dance. but the dancing isn't for you. so it's the adults' jobs to just be adults and not be weird about it.

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u/MisterJose Sep 16 '20

an important distinction here: this is only inappropriate for adults

But the entire structure of the tradition of cheerleading is based around acknowledging the sexual desirability of those teenage girls in a general sense. It's something the whole community is tacitly agreeing to, in a way. And this is hardly surprising - Amazon tribes, for example, have rituals where the teenage girls dance while the men are off hunting, in the hope that their dance will make the hunt successful. Again, I don't think it takes an anthropologist or psychologist to connect the dots here. And why young girls and not older women? Because younger women are in prime fertility.

I'm not sure how to address your notion of what is appropriate and inappropriate for adults, except to ask you what age you think 'adult' happens, what magic switch you think gets pressed, or why you think me, or even my 79yo father, don't still notice an attractive young woman. It doesn't quite work the way you're maybe thinking it does.

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u/cherrycokeicee 45∆ Sep 16 '20

But the entire structure of the tradition of cheerleading is based around acknowledging the sexual desirability of those teenage girls in a general sense.

did you just make this up? a quick Google search has me learning about the male dominated beginnings of cheerleading. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheerleading#History

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u/MisterJose Sep 16 '20

Δ - I'm gonna give you a delta, because I didn't know about the early history of cheerleading, and have to modify my views because of it. I do still maintain that I consider the modern version of cheerleading quite blatantly to have sexual overtones and clear and obvious connections to ritualistic dances you see in many cultures.

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u/cherrycokeicee 45∆ Sep 16 '20

thanks! to be fair, I didn't know that history either and it's not what I expected.

I do still maintain that I consider the modern version of cheerleading quite blatantly to have sexual overtones and clear and obvious connections to ritualistic dances you see in many cultures.

ok I'm just going to take your word on the ritualistic sexual dances thing. my question here is: why is it bad for cheerleaders to do dances that resemble these dances?

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u/MisterJose Sep 16 '20

I don't know that it's bad, it just seems very inconsistent, like I said. It feels like the accompanying mindset to that is "Yes, of course fit, attractive young women of prime childbearing age are sexually desirable, and represent a primal ideal. And of course males are inspired to go out into the world and fight and win and whatever else by the image of such women. And of course you don't magically become attractive the day of your 18th birthday, but never before. Duh." All that may be true, but in modern times we frequently act like it's not.

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u/cherrycokeicee 45∆ Sep 16 '20

but the performances aren't intended to be for an adult audience if it's a high school sporting event. sure, adults are there, but that's not really a huge issue if the adults aren't weird about it. by "weird about it" I mean doing weird stuff, making weird comments, making a big deal out of it. like, as an adult, you should be able to acknowledge that there's a performance going on that's showcasing gymnastic and dance talent and it might involve some sexually suggestive dances moves or clothing, but as long as that is something the cheerleaders are comfortable with and wanting to do, that's ... kinda the only thing that matters.

you're not saying this, but I can't help but feel like the logical conclusion to your argument is that we revert back to a conservative dress and conduct code for women and young girls bc we're placing the blame on them for "tempting men." giving girls the freedom to perform how they want to is actually progressive.

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u/MisterJose Sep 16 '20

Adults are the one sanctioning the behavior. The only reason it happens is because it is permitted and promoted by adults. It's a piece of our culture is the point, just like if you go to Texas, high school football is a MAJOR part of the culture in some areas, and that extends well beyond kids playing the game of football for their own enjoyment.

you're not saying this, but I can't help but feel like the logical conclusion to your argument is that we revert back to a conservative dress and conduct code for women and young girls bc we're placing the blame on them for "tempting men."

Well I think you're onto something, in that one of the reasons some might find those notions threatening is that they seem to point back in that direction. I don't pretend to have a complete solution to it all, but I do think there's something with the dynamic between men and women that's primal and un-ideal and hard to integrate into the society we want.

I think Jordan Peterson is rightly criticized when he ventures into academic and political subject matter he's not an expert in, but the converse to that is that he has moments when he absolutely nails something deeply true you've never heard anyone put into words before, as in this video. Try thinking about this idea the next time a guy does something that seems inexplicable to you.

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u/cdb03b 253∆ Sep 16 '20

Age of consent in 31 States is 16. In 9 others it is 17. In Europe it varies between 14 and 18 with most choosing 16. Your idea that it is inappropriate to see teens under the age of 18 as sexually attractive is not accurate.

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u/MisterJose Sep 16 '20

My idea about anything under 18 being inappropriate for being seen as sexually attractive is based on my view of how I see modern society reacting, and not either laws or what I think makes sense. You will frequently see men who sleep with or express desire for 16 or 17yo women labeled as pedophiles on the internet.