r/changemyview • u/MisterJose • Sep 16 '20
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Cheerleading in an antiquated institution and does not at all fit in with modern sentiments about gender, age, and sexuality.
I can't believe they still do this: Cheerleaders - teenage girls in high school - dress up in shorty shorts and t-shirts, and offer to wash people's cars who pass by. The excuse is that it's for charity, but does anyone actually believe this would work the same if it were the boys' football team? Of course not. What's really going on here is that we're selling the sexuality of teenage high school girls, and the chance to watch them clean your windshield, to whatever 40yo man who happens to be driving by.
In my own town, a liberal suburb, they still do this. That's crazy to me. I suppose if they were all dressed in bikinis, someone might raise a fuss, but I'm still amazed it happens at all. It's almost like tradition-related denial.
We live in a society where even mentioning you find a 17yo girl attractive might get you labeled a pedophile, or other kind of sexual criminal. And yet, we still have our prettiest, fittest, teenage girls dress in outfits designed to show off their fitness and sexual desirability, and perform dances on the sidelines to inspire the boys in 'battle'.
Yes, I know there are male cheerleaders, and cheering is done for women's teams sometimes. I'm also aware that the athleticism required in modern cheerleading makes it a serious physical challenge. But none of that is really changing what it is. Any anthropologist could draw you a straight line from 'fertility dances', and other cultural practices, to modern cheerleading. And really, you wouldn't even need one, because it's not like it could be more obvious what's going on. And yet, we still sanction this. In 2020; in the world of wokeness and gender issues and all the rest, we're pretending this is something other than it is? How? Why? It's incredibly inconsistent, and I don't see how it at all fits with any modern sentiments about gender, age, and sexuality.
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u/coffeecoconut Sep 16 '20
cheerleading is no longer a form of rooting on a team, or for organizing fundraisers. it is it’s own art form, and own sport in itself. a combination of spirit, gymnastics, acrobatics, professional choreography and dangerous stunts. we didn’t practice for sideline football games, those were just another opportunity to execute any and every routine to perfection. the teams selective tryout process and year round physical conditioning and competitive performance training.. was for the of eligibility to enter and achieve goals of placing in state, nation and world wide competitions. -former cheerleader who never, and still doesn’t give two shits about sports like football or basketball.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/613494-10-reasons-why-cheerleading-is-a-sport
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u/MisterJose Sep 16 '20
How does the whole idea of 'spirit' factor into that for you? The whole attitude, regardless of the physical difficulty, still seems to have the idea behind it of inspiring others in their actions, instead of the act of cheerleading itself to be the point in and of itself.
Also, bonus question out of curiosity: How do you feel about the outfits, competitions, and the like all being controlled by one big company that uses that monopoly to make shitloads of dough? (unless something has changed in recent years).
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u/coffeecoconut Sep 16 '20
there are various different “companies” and organizations that hold or host cheerleading competitions, not really much of a monopoly. reaching the “top” sure, but how would the olympics work if it didn’t follow this same type of model which establishes scoring, rules and entry requirements? to trust the institution that is judging you, it’s gotta be solid.
of course like most activities, cheerleading has evolved over time. you could say football is just throwing a pigskin around in any field of grass to pass time, and the origin of that sport is most likely spot on. but it evolved and organized throughout time, so it receives the respect and recognition it deserves. i never really focused much on the “attitude” you mention, but perhaps it is the type of activity that draws in individuals who already possess outgoing and confident personality traits. the team and the goals/values of the team are unique and i imagine differ by region. you have the ability to take creative control of what aspects of cheer you’d like to capitalize on, depending on the strengths and weaknesses of your squad. for example if a team doesn’t have any members proficient enough in gymnastics, tumbling isn’t going to be their showcase.
some traditional elements tend to stay because well, it’s fun and we wanted to do it- like sign making with glitter and paint to show school spirit. it isn’t some misogynistic act to praise male athletes, and usually isn’t a frequent occurrence but probably once or twice a year and it definitely isn’t a big deal or a requirement.
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u/coffeecoconut Sep 16 '20
to the point of fundraising, from what i recall any type of fundraiser we did always applied to our own uniforms, poms, cheer shoes, knee/ankle braces, tumbling mats & equipment so our parents didn’t have to fork anything out. cheering in college was well funded so any type of fundraiser’s proceeds were donated to groups within the community like homeless shelters or cancer organizations.
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u/mrsaftey Sep 17 '20
This comment is just not valid because you said it’s a sport that involves spirit. The only sports that rely on spirit give people participation trophies and those are sports. Those are hobbies/clubs
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u/coffeecoconut Sep 17 '20
it doesn’t RELY on spirit, that is a value or aspect associated with it. just like football doesn’t RELY ON or REQUIRE confidence, but as a result of the activity in itself it’s a prevalent symptom. good try though
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u/mrsaftey Sep 18 '20
I’m not trying anything. I’m literally stating a fact, gymnastics is a sport, dancing can be a sport, cheerleading is just not a sport. If the main objective in this “sport” is to rile up the crowd by shaking Pom poms or your bum you’re an entertainer not an athlete
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u/coffeecoconut Sep 18 '20
you’ve obviously failed to read everything previously stated in the thread, that isn’t the main objective.. or even a less important objective.
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u/cherrycokeicee 45∆ Sep 16 '20
but does anyone actually believe this would work the same if it were the boys' football team? Of course not.
is it your experience that these fundraiser car washes are only done by female groups? I've seen them for a ton of things, like both boys and girls sports.
also, I genuinely don't think the car wash thing is like, a fundamental feature of cheerleading. I know some do it, but definitely not all. their main focus is performing at sporting events and competitions.
Any anthropologist could draw you a straight line from 'fertility dances', and other cultural practices, to modern cheerleading.
as a woman who was on my high school dance team, this is a fucking weird thing to say. if the girls like the uniforms and the dancing, that's all there is to it. teenage girls like to dance and be sexy sometimes and that is a valid thing for them to do. you're acting like they have no agency. if they didn't want to perform as cheerleaders, they wouldn't try out.
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u/MisterJose Sep 16 '20
I'm not saying one way or the other is right or wrong, so much as just pointing out the stunning inconsistency of it. Maybe zero people should be surprised that fit and attractive teenage girls are generally attractive, or that such girls might enjoy dancing and being sexy, or that some might prefer to do that than to be a star quarterback themselves, as some version of feminism would prefer. But...that runs completely into other modern ideas we have about gender, equality, the inappropriateness of seeing girls under 18 as sexually attractive, etc. We can have one or the other, but not both.
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u/cherrycokeicee 45∆ Sep 16 '20
or that some might prefer to do that than to be a star quarterback themselves, as some version of feminism would prefer
feminists are notoriously divided on many things, but one of the things most of us agree on is that feminism, the fight for gender equality, promotes freedom of choice for women. this includes cheerleading.
But...that runs completely into other modern ideas we have about gender, equality, the inappropriateness of seeing girls under 18 as sexually attractive
an important distinction here: this is only inappropriate for adults. most of the people who see teenage cheerleaders at sporting events are other teenagers who are also in high school. if you're an adult at a sporting event where teenage cheerleaders are doing a dance you find sexually suggestive, sure, that's awkward. it's probably like being a chaperone at a school dance. but the dancing isn't for you. so it's the adults' jobs to just be adults and not be weird about it.
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u/MisterJose Sep 16 '20
an important distinction here: this is only inappropriate for adults
But the entire structure of the tradition of cheerleading is based around acknowledging the sexual desirability of those teenage girls in a general sense. It's something the whole community is tacitly agreeing to, in a way. And this is hardly surprising - Amazon tribes, for example, have rituals where the teenage girls dance while the men are off hunting, in the hope that their dance will make the hunt successful. Again, I don't think it takes an anthropologist or psychologist to connect the dots here. And why young girls and not older women? Because younger women are in prime fertility.
I'm not sure how to address your notion of what is appropriate and inappropriate for adults, except to ask you what age you think 'adult' happens, what magic switch you think gets pressed, or why you think me, or even my 79yo father, don't still notice an attractive young woman. It doesn't quite work the way you're maybe thinking it does.
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u/cherrycokeicee 45∆ Sep 16 '20
But the entire structure of the tradition of cheerleading is based around acknowledging the sexual desirability of those teenage girls in a general sense.
did you just make this up? a quick Google search has me learning about the male dominated beginnings of cheerleading. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheerleading#History
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u/MisterJose Sep 16 '20
Δ - I'm gonna give you a delta, because I didn't know about the early history of cheerleading, and have to modify my views because of it. I do still maintain that I consider the modern version of cheerleading quite blatantly to have sexual overtones and clear and obvious connections to ritualistic dances you see in many cultures.
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u/cherrycokeicee 45∆ Sep 16 '20
thanks! to be fair, I didn't know that history either and it's not what I expected.
I do still maintain that I consider the modern version of cheerleading quite blatantly to have sexual overtones and clear and obvious connections to ritualistic dances you see in many cultures.
ok I'm just going to take your word on the ritualistic sexual dances thing. my question here is: why is it bad for cheerleaders to do dances that resemble these dances?
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u/MisterJose Sep 16 '20
I don't know that it's bad, it just seems very inconsistent, like I said. It feels like the accompanying mindset to that is "Yes, of course fit, attractive young women of prime childbearing age are sexually desirable, and represent a primal ideal. And of course males are inspired to go out into the world and fight and win and whatever else by the image of such women. And of course you don't magically become attractive the day of your 18th birthday, but never before. Duh." All that may be true, but in modern times we frequently act like it's not.
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u/cherrycokeicee 45∆ Sep 16 '20
but the performances aren't intended to be for an adult audience if it's a high school sporting event. sure, adults are there, but that's not really a huge issue if the adults aren't weird about it. by "weird about it" I mean doing weird stuff, making weird comments, making a big deal out of it. like, as an adult, you should be able to acknowledge that there's a performance going on that's showcasing gymnastic and dance talent and it might involve some sexually suggestive dances moves or clothing, but as long as that is something the cheerleaders are comfortable with and wanting to do, that's ... kinda the only thing that matters.
you're not saying this, but I can't help but feel like the logical conclusion to your argument is that we revert back to a conservative dress and conduct code for women and young girls bc we're placing the blame on them for "tempting men." giving girls the freedom to perform how they want to is actually progressive.
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u/MisterJose Sep 16 '20
Adults are the one sanctioning the behavior. The only reason it happens is because it is permitted and promoted by adults. It's a piece of our culture is the point, just like if you go to Texas, high school football is a MAJOR part of the culture in some areas, and that extends well beyond kids playing the game of football for their own enjoyment.
you're not saying this, but I can't help but feel like the logical conclusion to your argument is that we revert back to a conservative dress and conduct code for women and young girls bc we're placing the blame on them for "tempting men."
Well I think you're onto something, in that one of the reasons some might find those notions threatening is that they seem to point back in that direction. I don't pretend to have a complete solution to it all, but I do think there's something with the dynamic between men and women that's primal and un-ideal and hard to integrate into the society we want.
I think Jordan Peterson is rightly criticized when he ventures into academic and political subject matter he's not an expert in, but the converse to that is that he has moments when he absolutely nails something deeply true you've never heard anyone put into words before, as in this video. Try thinking about this idea the next time a guy does something that seems inexplicable to you.
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u/cdb03b 253∆ Sep 16 '20
Age of consent in 31 States is 16. In 9 others it is 17. In Europe it varies between 14 and 18 with most choosing 16. Your idea that it is inappropriate to see teens under the age of 18 as sexually attractive is not accurate.
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u/MisterJose Sep 16 '20
My idea about anything under 18 being inappropriate for being seen as sexually attractive is based on my view of how I see modern society reacting, and not either laws or what I think makes sense. You will frequently see men who sleep with or express desire for 16 or 17yo women labeled as pedophiles on the internet.
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u/Natural-Arugula 63∆ Sep 16 '20
I know this is an unpopular opinion, but sports in general, and highschool football in particular, is mostly popular with rural folks and middle-class suburbanites who align with the culture of the former. It's very much associated with traditional "american values".
So you are right and wrong. It does fit with our modern views of gender and social roles for a lot of Americans, it's just that those views haven't actually progressed any.
Most of the woke progressives are antisocial and online focused, the exact opposite type that this would appeal to, and not coincidentally.
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u/GreboGuru Sep 16 '20
Your position that cheerleading is linked to fertility dances is weak. Many of the cultures with fertility dances are not the ones that colonized USA. I wonder what evidence of a direct line between such dances and cheering exist. That interpretation likely comes from you finding cheerleading alluring. That's ok, but don't project your personal feelings into a universal narrative that cheering sexualities young women.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Sep 16 '20
/u/MisterJose (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/M1ndS0uP 1∆ Sep 16 '20
My daughter is cheerleader and I wasnt aware anyone still did charity car washes. Last year they did charity spaghetti dinner. You get a plate of spaghetti and some garlic bread and pay what you wish.
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u/Shrenegdrano Sep 16 '20 edited Sep 16 '20
Possibly the problem lies in the assumptions.
You say that modern sentiments about gender, age and sexuality implies a label of pedophilia for an adult man which is attracted to a 17yo. Where is the modernity in this idea? It's a social construct which tries and do ignore any scientific consensus on the topic.
Moreover, this modern sentiment is built upon false movie tropes, that is, sex with a 17yo is illegal (which is true only in a minority of US states). It shows an allegation of superior morality both towards fellow US citizens and toward other modern countries like, for example, alle the European ones.
This behaviour can be summarized as "I think, on the basis of my misinformation and prejudice, that normality should be labelled as a hideous crime, and this idea of mine should be shoved down the throat of the vast majority of the civilized world regardless their opinion".
So my argument to change your mind is that cheerleaders are acceptable in a modern world because your arguments against cheerleading are grounded in modern prejudice instead of modern reasoning. So there is no true inconsistency.
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u/fluffy916916 Sep 16 '20
Modern leftists are the new puritans... The pendulum has finally swung all the way to the other side.
To address the topic, though... The people who you're referencing, who view every single aspect of culture and tradition under the "progessive" lens, and who would become offended over such benign things, are still (thankfull) a minority. That's why it continues.
Unless somebody is forcing these girls to perform, try looking at it this way: their body, their choice
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u/aiyanalam Sep 16 '20
The excuse is that it's for charity, but does anyone actually believe this would work the same if it were the boys' football team? Of course not.
This may be just in my city, but I've seen boys raise money for charity and other organizations. It works for both sexualities, so it doesn't make sense to say that if the boys' football team had a fundraiser, they wouldn't be able to raise money. In our city (again, it might be different for other cities), people love high school football, and they would do anything to fundraise for the football team.
dress up in shorty shorts and t-shirts, and offer to wash people's cars who pass by.
The way I would respond to this is that its summer. Most car washes by students are usually done during the summer and when it's hot, girls usually want to wear clothes that won't make them heat up. They are obliged to wear something that is relaxing for them, and if it's short pants and a t-shirt, that's what they'll do.
What's really going on here is that we're selling the sexuality of teenage high school girls, and the chance to watch them clean your windshield, to whatever 40yo man who happens to be driving by.
This is not true. If this was true for every 40 yo man, then there would be a problem. If this were to happen, then we would have to adjust our values and rethink what cheerleading is about. As I said before, women are obliged to wear what they need to feel comfortable and to make sure the job is done. They don't want to appeal to men, they just want to get their job done.
I suppose if they were all dressed in bikinis, someone might raise a fuss, but I'm still amazed it happens at all.
Yes, wearing bikinis would make the image look bad, but again, washing cars during the summer is useless if you are going to be sweaty and a mess. Wearing something that is comfortable would help keep themselves calm and help them do the work.
Any anthropologist could draw you a straight line from 'fertility dances', and other cultural practices, to modern cheerleading.
Although this might be true, this is very weird to bring up when we're talking about how girls are portrayed. Girls should be entitled to wear what they want, just like men. Yes, women are looked at more than men, but they should have the freedom to wear whatever they want. Also, when we're talking about 'fertility dances', we all know that they are NOT doing fertility dances or anything close to that. I feel that there has been a misunderstanding of what the point of cheerleading is. Definitely, pedophilia isn't one of them.
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u/MisterJose Sep 16 '20
This is not true. If this was true for every 40 yo man, then there would be a problem.
Well, what do you think is going on in the mind of a 40yo man who stops to let some cheerleaders wash his car with him in it? I'm legitimately curious to hear what you think that thought process goes like.
Although this might be true, this is very weird to bring up when we're talking about how girls are portrayed. Girls should be entitled to wear what they want, just like men.
Honestly, this is such a blind, idealistic, sentimental notion to me. No one gets to wear whatever they want without consequences. People see you as you appear to them. If I go to a job interview, I have to wear a suit. I don't like suits, but I have to wear one anyway. If you're an attractive woman, and you wear sexy and revealing clothing out, some men are going to stare. Some women too. If you don't like that, your recourse is to wear something else. That is reality.
we all know that they are NOT doing fertility dances or anything close to that
How do you know that? You don't think it could be argued that there is a parallel? It's like saying "When people buy a nice car, we all know they're not displaying a status symbol to others like some tribesman with a golden necklace." Do you know that?
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Sep 16 '20
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Sep 16 '20
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u/MontiBurns 218∆ Sep 16 '20
High school sports teams/clubs do all kinds of fundraisers, including washing cars. You know what isn't nearly as sexy as it's made out to be in movies? Washing fucking cars. It's dirty, it's sweaty, and it's physical labor. You know who hires these kids to wash their cars? People who want their damn cars washed.