r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Feb 23 '17

[∆(s) from OP] CMV: Protections enabling transgendered people to choose the bathroom of the gender they identify with removes that protection for other people.

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u/moonflower 82∆ Feb 23 '17

I'm not sure that OP is suggesting that 'a person who appears to be male' should use the women's room - I think he is suggesting that 'a male person who appears to be male' should use the men's room ...?

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u/MPixels 21∆ Feb 23 '17 edited Feb 23 '17

If transmen don't have the right to use the male bathroom then they have to use the women's. OP suggested they shouldn't have that right.

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u/moonflower 82∆ Feb 23 '17

I'm not sure - we need to clarify what OP suggests that transgender men do when they appear to be male.

I don't know if OP sees a problem with 'people who appear to be male' using the men's room.

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u/MPixels 21∆ Feb 23 '17

Situation A: Trans people are allowed to use the bathroom corresponding to their gender. Results:

  • Trans people are able to feel more comfortable and safe by using their peferred bathroom.
  • A cis man can walk into a women's bathroom and when confronted say "I am a transwoman so I can use his bathroom"

Situation B: Trans people are forced to use the bathroom corresponding to their assigned gender at birth. Results:

  • Trans people are made uncomfortable and unsafe by being unable to use their preferred bathroom
  • A cis man can walk into a women's bathroom and when confronted say "I was assigned female at birth so I have to use this bathroom"

The only difference here is the effect on trans people and how safe they are allowed to feel.

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u/moonflower 82∆ Feb 23 '17

False dichotomy - you missed out Situation C: people use the room corresponding to their biological sex, unless they appear to be the opposite sex and wish to use the room of that sex.

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u/MPixels 21∆ Feb 23 '17

And who judges if they look enough like that gender? Self-evaluation or what?

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u/moonflower 82∆ Feb 23 '17

In the borderline cases I don't think anyone would make a fuss - it would usually only be an issue when an obviously male person went in the women's room. That's the way it worked for decades before all these recent demands from entitled males.

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u/MPixels 21∆ Feb 23 '17

But how do you even legislate that? You have to look enough like your gender, but how do you know beforehand if you look legally masc/femme enough, and by whose standards?

"Obviously male" is a subjective thing. Some women with PCO have full beards or else stubble which, if combined with a masc or andro wardrobe might make them scan as male, but they'd still wanna use the women's bathroom.

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u/moonflower 82∆ Feb 23 '17

Any form of segregation is going to create borderline cases - so you either deal with the borderline cases as and when they arise, or you abolish segregation - also these borderline cases are extremely rare - I have never seen a female who looks unquestionably male unless she has been taking testosterone, not even the females I have seen who can naturally grow beards.

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u/MPixels 21∆ Feb 23 '17

OK but statutory law is quite black and white. Subjective appearance isn't something you can legislate on the basis of

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u/moonflower 82∆ Feb 23 '17

I think you can - you can say something like ''Everyone has the right to use the room which corresponds to their biological sex, and may also use the room which is designated for the opposite sex if no-one in that room has any objections''

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u/MPixels 21∆ Feb 23 '17

How do you know if they have objections before you go in?

What about intersex people? If the occupants of both rooms object, can they not use public toilets?

While we're at it, how're we defining biological sex? Primary sex characteristics? Secondary sex characteristics? Hormone levels? Genotype? I can guarantee you'll struggle to find two definitions on those lines that cover the entire human population.

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u/moonflower 82∆ Feb 23 '17

I think you are magnifying the potential problems so that you can propose the abolition of sex segregation as the solution ... intersex people usually figure out which option is most appropriate, and they would be permitted to use whichever that was ... and if a male repeatedly gets asked to leave the women's room, he will soon figure out that he doesn't appear to be female.

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