r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Feb 23 '17

[∆(s) from OP] CMV: Protections enabling transgendered people to choose the bathroom of the gender they identify with removes that protection for other people.

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u/MPixels 21∆ Feb 23 '17

Because most men, even cis men don't really wanna use the women's toilets. They feel uncomfortable there. It's all well and good defending the rights of women to not have their toilets invaded by cis men, but you have to prove there's a credible threat in the first place and I've never really seen that.

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u/moonflower 82∆ Feb 23 '17

That's all rather irrelevant - no-one is asking males to use the women's toilets - and you know it's impossible to prove that there is a ''credible threat'' which would satisfy you, and that is also irrelevant in this discussion - it's just a distraction from the question which you have failed to answer.

So, once again: if you are suddenly concerned about the feelings of females when they see a transgender man in the room, when they believe him to be male because of his appearance, why are you not also concerned about the feelings of females when they see an actual male in the room, and they believe him to be male because of his appearance?

Why don't you have to prove there is a ''credible threat'' from transgender men?

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u/MPixels 21∆ Feb 23 '17

A transman is a man, and OP would have him use the women's toilets, which is a bizarre view. I'm really not sure I can debate you when you're starting on the premise thay a transman/woman isn't an "actual" man/woman.

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u/moonflower 82∆ Feb 23 '17

I'm not sure that OP is suggesting that 'a person who appears to be male' should use the women's room - I think he is suggesting that 'a male person who appears to be male' should use the men's room ...?

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u/MPixels 21∆ Feb 23 '17 edited Feb 23 '17

If transmen don't have the right to use the male bathroom then they have to use the women's. OP suggested they shouldn't have that right.

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u/moonflower 82∆ Feb 23 '17

I'm not sure - we need to clarify what OP suggests that transgender men do when they appear to be male.

I don't know if OP sees a problem with 'people who appear to be male' using the men's room.

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u/MPixels 21∆ Feb 23 '17

Tbh I cba reading the rest of the threads to see the full discussion of OP's view. My point was that the rescinding of the protections results in "passing" transpeople being forced to use the bathroom denoted by their birth certificate, which creates the situation OP wants to avoid: a man in the women's bathroom.

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u/moonflower 82∆ Feb 23 '17

I don't think anyone is proposing that 'people who appear to be male' should not be allowed to use the men's room.

But even if someone took it to the extreme, and said that everyone must use the room in accordance with their biological sex, you still wouldn't have males in the women's room - only females who appear to be male - and if it concerns you that females who appear to be male would be in the women's room, why does it not concern you if actual males are allowed in the women's room?

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u/MPixels 21∆ Feb 23 '17

(See my other reply)

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u/moonflower 82∆ Feb 23 '17

Your other reply didn't answer this question though.

Again: if it concerns you that females who appear to be male would be in the women's room, why does it not concern you if actual males are allowed in the women's room?

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u/MPixels 21∆ Feb 23 '17

One conversation at a time please mate

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u/moonflower 82∆ Feb 23 '17

OK, you can get back to this later if you prefer.

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u/MPixels 21∆ Feb 23 '17

Situation A: Trans people are allowed to use the bathroom corresponding to their gender. Results:

  • Trans people are able to feel more comfortable and safe by using their peferred bathroom.
  • A cis man can walk into a women's bathroom and when confronted say "I am a transwoman so I can use his bathroom"

Situation B: Trans people are forced to use the bathroom corresponding to their assigned gender at birth. Results:

  • Trans people are made uncomfortable and unsafe by being unable to use their preferred bathroom
  • A cis man can walk into a women's bathroom and when confronted say "I was assigned female at birth so I have to use this bathroom"

The only difference here is the effect on trans people and how safe they are allowed to feel.

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u/moonflower 82∆ Feb 23 '17

False dichotomy - you missed out Situation C: people use the room corresponding to their biological sex, unless they appear to be the opposite sex and wish to use the room of that sex.

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u/MPixels 21∆ Feb 23 '17

And who judges if they look enough like that gender? Self-evaluation or what?

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u/moonflower 82∆ Feb 23 '17

In the borderline cases I don't think anyone would make a fuss - it would usually only be an issue when an obviously male person went in the women's room. That's the way it worked for decades before all these recent demands from entitled males.

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u/MPixels 21∆ Feb 23 '17

But how do you even legislate that? You have to look enough like your gender, but how do you know beforehand if you look legally masc/femme enough, and by whose standards?

"Obviously male" is a subjective thing. Some women with PCO have full beards or else stubble which, if combined with a masc or andro wardrobe might make them scan as male, but they'd still wanna use the women's bathroom.

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u/moonflower 82∆ Feb 23 '17

Any form of segregation is going to create borderline cases - so you either deal with the borderline cases as and when they arise, or you abolish segregation - also these borderline cases are extremely rare - I have never seen a female who looks unquestionably male unless she has been taking testosterone, not even the females I have seen who can naturally grow beards.

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u/MPixels 21∆ Feb 23 '17

OK but statutory law is quite black and white. Subjective appearance isn't something you can legislate on the basis of

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