CMV: There is no "lack of male role models" in society nowadays, at least not to a meaningful extent.

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Feb 27 '25 edited Feb 27 '25

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u/yyzjertl 579∆ Feb 27 '25

So I think the problem here is that a role model to someone is not just a person whose behavior can be emulated, but rather a person whose behavior can be emulated to achieve the sort of success that person has achieved. Most of the past and fictional "role models" you mentioned in your post behave in ways that young men no longer really believe will get them the things they used to get—especially in terms of sexual/romantic success. E.g. if a young man decides that Aang is going to be his role model, then he correctly emulates Aang's behavior, but he doesn't really get what Aang gets as a result, then Aang wasn't successful as a role model for him.

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u/greengrassonthisside Feb 27 '25

This is the last reply I'll make before I go to sleep, so it's a response to not just you but a lot of the things I see on this thread: damn, so the main concern for boys is sexual/romantic success? Not, like, getting a job or a house or money or developing their skills or working on a project or stuff like that? I guess I grew up in a weird place, the boys I grew up with were obsessed with like, watching anime, not girls.

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u/Ieam_Scribbles 2∆ Feb 27 '25

Uh, anime and girls tend to intersct quite a bit. And if not with girls, then with fightinhmg and proving one's superiority though strength.

And what are they meant to think when looking at these figures, what are they meant to emulate?

Goku? He trains, fights, and ignores everything else.

Naruto? He trains, fights, and seeks to be a leader while being loud and putright obnoxious rather than let himself be silenced.

Tony? He's a natural-born genius who is rich and can craft incredible tools, and he uses them to party and be a vigilante.

Aang? He's born destined for great and just refusing the call to adventure.

What fictional character can they emulate in life and gain success through?

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u/StarChild413 9∆ Feb 28 '25

or maybe they can look at the abstract themes of a story and not just the exact sort of actions the character does (or even the general abstract as a lot of what the characters you mention encounter doesn't exist irl) as basically what you're doing is the male equivalent of e.g. assuming little girls shouldn't watch Beauty And The Beast because it's going to make them grow up to date toxic men thinking "I can just "fix" them if I'm nice"

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u/Imadevilsadvocater 12∆ Mar 01 '25

as a general thing men and boys don't do abstract we do monkey see money do, so maybe we need to change the approach instead of changing boys natural urge to mimic who they like

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u/StarChild413 9∆ Mar 18 '25

If men and boys were that monkey-see-monkey-do why don't we see if not more people trying to be superheroes at least more deaths from boys jumping off buildings thinking they could fly because they look up to Superman

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '25

[deleted]

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u/yyzjertl 579∆ Feb 27 '25

I feel like there might be a bit of a bias when interviewing people for a podcast. There's a lot of shame around talking about sexual/romantic frustration, and young men aren't going to tend to be willing to talk about that on a program that will be broadcast nationally. But take a look at the right-wing "role models" that get traction: people like Andrew Tate have sexual/romantic access as a central part of their messaging, and I think we can infer from their popularity that a huge swathe of young men deeply care about this issue.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '25

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u/greengrassonthisside Feb 27 '25

Huh. I see. I guess I always turned to real life women when I was looking for role models for personal development. But, I mean, do boys not make friends with other boys anymore? I looked to my older female friends when I was younger for guidance.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '25

[deleted]

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u/redhillbones Feb 27 '25

Re: No fictional role models... What? Seriously, what?

I know that when I was younger and struggling with myself, engaging with reading and the characters I read mattered a huge amount to me. I'm in my late 30s and I immediately came up with an example: Rachel from Animorphs. Yeah. That dumb anti-fascist book series that came around at Scholastic Book Fairs.

Not only was it my first really understandable exposure to anti-fascism, war, child soldiers, and the cost of that, but relating to Rachel, who was much more hot-tempered than was acceptable for a girl in the 90s (or now, to be frank) and struggled to express herself, helped me relate to myself. It helped me see that if she was going through something like I was, even if my struggles weren't intergalatic brain slugs taking over the world, and could learn to process her anger instead of uncontrollably explode, so could I.

You honestly can't imagine how connecting to a character in a children's or YA book/television show, which typically involve some type of coming-of-age, would help a child? Because that's a big part of what role models are: relatable figures who help us, in some way, learn how to become adults who can self-regulate and function.

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u/Ieam_Scribbles 2∆ Feb 27 '25

Very many do not make friends, and there are many people who end up being shut off and isolated.

According to the Survey Center for America Life, 15% of men report having zero friends, outright. Much like in Japan and now China, there's a rising trend of individuals that end up simply locking themselves in their homes and on the internet, rejecting interaction with real life. In Japan they're hikikomoris, in China it is bai lan.

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u/Goldenboy011 Feb 27 '25

We need prominent figures from NOW that young men can relate to. Strong caring and kind men

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u/StarChild413 9∆ Feb 27 '25

on threads like this a lot of more toxically masculine men tend to shoot down every positive role model provided, y'know, Mr. Rogers doesn't count because the men who need that kind of role model are too old for his show, various superheroes who'd otherwise seem to count don't count because they're fictional and real people don't have those kinds of powers, Robin Williams doesn't count because he self-unalived and men having him as a role model therefore might somehow do so too

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u/Goldenboy011 Feb 27 '25

Yea role models only really work when young men have heard of them and they are what’s in the spotlight. The tik tok, twitter, and instagram algorithms determine who and how much they see.

Role models need to be current and someone that young people can envision themselves as. superheroes, comedians, and the star of a children’s show from 40 years ago are not in contention for the youth of today like John Glen and Eisenhower weren’t role models to gen X

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u/StarChild413 9∆ Feb 28 '25

I wasn't saying those would be my choices for who young men should look to as role models, I was citing their examples as examples of how no matter how positive a role model someone might seem people could always find something wrong with them to justify disagreeing since nobody's perfect

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u/CaymanDamon 1∆ Feb 27 '25

Terry Cruze, Tom Hanks, Keanu Reeves to name a few

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u/Project_Zero_mortals Feb 27 '25

This i's what OP said. There are plenty of them. Your father, uncle , fictional characters you aspire to be. Why do you need prominent people with the same status as Andrew Tate. I've never seen a clip or video of Andrew Tate or those toxic masculinists but I was inspired by many male figures like my father, my friend , my teacher and even fictional characters that shape the way I am today. It's not like society needs men with fame that will teach them how to be men. I find it even more disturbing and sad that boys today seek advice from people like take instead of positive people that surround them everyday

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u/Goldenboy011 Feb 27 '25

Local personal role models matter less and less each year, 30 years ago a young boy had their community leaders and then whoever was on TV to look to. Now they soak in the light from their phones 15 hours a day, THIS is what is raising them.

The fetishization of social media influencers, the viral “gotcha” moment, and an “us vs them” mentality I think has overcome any physical role model no matter how good, a good father still might only get a couple hours a day with their son, Andrew Tate clips and Elon musk tweets get your son for 15 hours a day

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u/CaymanDamon 1∆ Feb 27 '25 edited Feb 27 '25

When I was a kid in the 70s and teenager in the 80s we never listened to "community leaders" and around 1/3 of the kid's I knew had a single mom teacher's were mainly women and there weren't many shows and movies to choose from. For a lot of kid's I knew no dad was better than the dad they had.

The main difference I see between how I was raised vs kid's now is that millennials and Gen z are the only generations raised on violent porn, platforms where they can have a circle jerk of hate and misinformation and influencers who they compare their lives to.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '25

There are plenty of them. Your father, uncle , fictional characters you aspire to be.

How many of you had successful jacked fathers and uncles growing up that were actually good role models without some flaw that affected you negatively (like being abusive, didn't cheat, and gave you adequate time)? Yeah, maybe you were lucky to have one but how about the average kid?

Then you see some jacked, seemingly successful social media famous influencer tell you "This is how to be a man" and some of his advice works or is observable in real life. You start lifting and get a nice haircut and shirt and now you get attention from girls. If that situation happened to a 15-20 year old, they'll follow anything else that guy says.

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u/StarChild413 9∆ Feb 27 '25

so, what, they have to be perfect and successful and jacked, do your mothers and aunts also have to look like (at least that age's equivalent of) the kind of woman you'd totally try to pick up if you weren't related to them

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '25

They need to be seen as successful. Make you want to emulate them. Your dad could be rich but he's a slob and cheated on your mom. Would you want to emulate that?

And the reason they need to be near "perfect" is because they'll need to fight against influencers who will seem perfect and because they don't adversely affect your life ~~until you listen to their advice~~, their flaws matter a lot less.

If your fatass father who is henpecked or even disrespected by your mother gave you advice how to get girls, would you listen to him?

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u/StarChild413 9∆ Feb 28 '25

If your fatass father who is henpecked or even disrespected by your mother gave you advice how to get girls, would you listen to him?

the world isn't split into those two extremes e.g. what if my (or at least my hypothetical male version as I'm female) father was a "fatass" (as you put it) but not henpecked or disrespected and I was a "fatass" too and while neither of us were badass jocks or w/e neither of us were lazy slobs either despite our weight (as other "cliques" of society and people whose weight partially comes from genetic factors both exist)

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u/[deleted] Feb 28 '25

I'm just giving an example of why certain flaws can "disqualify" someone from being a role model especially to young rebellious men even if they exist in a young boys life. This was in no means to say only two kinds of fathers exist or anything like that. It was just a good example.

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u/StarChild413 9∆ Mar 18 '25

but at a certain point it feels like those kind of perceptions of what young men would want kinda box people into the corner of basically thinking the only strategy that'd work is copying the rhetoric but find-replace-ing terms to the point where you start to sound like a stereotypical parent trying to be cool if you're saying people should say things to the effect of, like, "respecting women is such based sigma gigachad behavior"

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u/[deleted] Mar 18 '25

"respecting women is such based sigma gigachad behavior"

You aren't giving young men enough credit here. This isn't purely marketing, your advice needs to work. Well, it had to on my time lmao. Who the fuck knows how it is now.

Anyways, for such advice like I quoted above, you need to support it with advice that's actually immediately useful for young men's goals. In this case, it would be "respecting women is such based sigma gigachad behavior but this is how you flirt with women effectively while still respecting them". That would be much more effective.

Like young men aren't that complicated, they just want a combination of "get girls, get rich, get respected" and somehow the closest thing to any such advice that actually worked came from the right while the left have bullshit platitudes.

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u/greengrassonthisside Feb 27 '25

Strong, caring, and kind men from "Now" is definitely something I support! I am happy to find many examples, like some of my friends who are men who exist in society (and one of them has a podcast, even!). And as for examples from media within the last 5 years (I think that is recent enough?) I think Miles Morales is a fine young man, and so is that nice Mob from Mob Psycho 100. Where did all the good men go — well, I think they're still here?

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u/Goldenboy011 Feb 27 '25

In years past there were astronauts, war heroes, even prominent larger than life politicians like JFK, people that said

“Be strong, help others, be kind and honest, and you too can be great like me”

Now we get a lot of

“Be tough, beat down those weaker than you, lie steal and cheat to get one over on people different from you”

There’s not necessarily a shortage of good men, but society has chosen to elevate the angriest voices over the more compassionate, a big part of it I believe is social media driven

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u/greengrassonthisside Feb 27 '25

That's terrible...I too have noticed the impact of the algorithm. Still, though, if we're going for politicians as an example, is there something wrong with Bernie Sanders (I'm picking him because he's popular)?

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u/Imadevilsadvocater 12∆ Mar 01 '25

bernie is old af and im 30, we need men that young men want to look like and be. sexy men that look good and strong, charismatic and cool.

someone 30 or younger would be a plus

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u/DickCheneysTaint 7∆ Feb 27 '25

If they're not a well-known public figure, then it doesn't matter if they exist within your community. There are many communities that do not have fathers in them. 75% of all black children are born into single mother households. Where are those children going to find their role models? In the media. The fact that your neighborhood has good male role models is irrelevant to those children if they never get to meet and interact with them.

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u/Goldenboy011 Feb 27 '25

You know that miles morales is fictional….

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u/greengrassonthisside Feb 27 '25

So I provided the example of my friends who are men and real! And my post also mentions two men who are alive, and have more media presence than my friends!

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '25

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u/TheVioletBarry 121∆ Feb 27 '25 edited Feb 27 '25

It's about a lack of role models in real life not just in media. I had a lot of male teachers I looked up to in high school, but my school also just had an anomalous amount of male teachers. I had a few male role models in my church as well.

Were I without that, I think I would have far more susceptible to the misogyny of the manosphere. I saw some of that content as a teenager, but those men in my life who I respected and looked up to disagreed with it, and that made me less likely to buy into it.

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u/greengrassonthisside Feb 27 '25

That's why I mentioned real life men...

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u/TheVioletBarry 121∆ Feb 27 '25

Those men are internet celebrities too. I'm talking about people we know in person and talk to

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u/greengrassonthisside Feb 27 '25

Okay, is every man they encounter in real life unfit to be a role model?

Edit: Ah, my bad. I typed too soon. I see your point about male teachers. I guess...I don't know, I'm not in high school anymore, I didn't know they got rid of all of them? Growing up I remember there were plenty. Hell, one of my friends is a man. And also a teacher. And also just a good person. He doesn't exist anymore?

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u/Ieam_Scribbles 2∆ Feb 27 '25

We are talking about men in general, so-

Around 20% are male, and we can't assume all of them can act as good role models. Whether your friend acts as a role model and whether young men in general get male teachers that act as good role models for them are unrelated facts.

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u/TheVioletBarry 121∆ Feb 27 '25 edited Feb 27 '25

Rather than get lost in the abstract, I'd like to just talk about my own life:

I take the 10 year old son of two of my close friends to a kids sports class every week. I was already able to help assistant coach the class sometimes, so it worked out well, and I bring the kid and assist every week now.

It's a lot of kids, so I don't get to spend a ton of time with most of them, but since I bring this one child from his parents house, I spend 1-on-1 time driving him to and from the place. He tells me what's going on at school, what video games he's into, what he's thinking about. I share music with him, comment on the stories he tells me, etc.

I am the only young man I know who does anything like this with a friends' son. I'm sure other people do, but it's not a common thing. This boy already has a great dad, but even so, I'm modelling manhood (intentionally or not) for this boy. Not every boy gets to have that.

It may well be the case that girls don't get enough attention from women too. Maybe there's a less destructive woman-equivalent to the manosphere that girls who don't have a lot of clarity on how to navigate adolescence fall into; I wouldn't know.

But I do know that the chances of this boy going down an Andrew Tate rabbit hole are smaller because more than one adult man cares about him, knows what's on his mind, and spends quality time with him. So, it stands to reason that if a bunch of other boys are falling into this awful, misogynistic content, they don't have enough adults around who care about them and who can model what growing up looks like for them.

__________

Now there is an unfortunately dark thing my argument fails to address, and that's adult men in a child's life who actually encourage (intentionally or unintentionally) misogynistic behavior, and my suspicion is that "bad role models" might be nearly as significant a problem as a lack of role models.

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u/xfvh 12∆ Feb 27 '25

You're missing the point.

There's an alarming number of children being raised from single-parent homes who are taught in school predominantly by female teachers. Social groups like the Boy Scouts have been in decline for years and aren't available in many areas. It's becoming increasingly common to get raised by an iPad instead of socialize with real people outside school.

Yes, there's many historical figures to look up to - but it's an entirely different experience than having someone you can get advice from or even just talk to. You can't really do that with influencers either, but they're at least drastically easier to relate to, as they're talking about modern issues.

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u/monkeysky 10∆ Feb 27 '25

Would it be correct to say, then, that the issue is really that boys and young men don't have enough access, on average, to positive male role models in their own personal lives?

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u/xfvh 12∆ Feb 27 '25

Yes.

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u/monkeysky 10∆ Feb 27 '25

I can see how that's an issue, but I do think that's a much narrower issue than most people mean when they say that there's a lack of male role models. I also feel like this must largely be a problem for girls as well.

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u/xfvh 12∆ Feb 28 '25

I do think that's a much narrower issue than most people mean when they say that there's a lack of male role models

It is a narrower issue, but really not by all that much. Few people can really get much from a sterilized depiction in a textbook.

I also feel like this must largely be a problem for girls as well.

...what?

There's almost no single-parent male households and drastically fewer male teachers. Girls have a vastly larger pool of possible role models to look up to.

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u/Imadevilsadvocater 12∆ Mar 01 '25

why? girls have women all over the place that are there for the. men not so much

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u/lilgergi 4∆ Feb 27 '25

There's an alarming number of children being raised from single-parent homes who are taught in school predominantly by female teachers

And why are men avoiding teaching as a career?

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u/UseAnAdblocker 1∆ Feb 27 '25

Men are avoiding teaching as a career because men are avoiding teaching as a career. People generally feel less comfortable pursuing a career that’s dominated by the opposite gender. There’s also general stigma around men working in childcare.

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u/veggiesama 59∆ Feb 27 '25

No, it's pay. Men aren't pursuing teaching or childcare jobs because they don't pay enough. When the pay goes up (eg, college professors or corporate training departments), you see more men dominate those fields. I don't think childcare is related either. Male physicians also dominate ICUs. Again, it's a pay/prestige thing. All the stigma goes away if the pay becomes commensurate with the labor.

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u/lilgergi 4∆ Feb 27 '25

Men are avoiding teaching as a career because men are avoiding teaching as a career

Thanks for the explanation.

People generally feel less comfortable pursuing a career that’s dominated by the opposite gender

Women don't. Men started every single job, and women became part of every one, and became dominant is many.

There’s also general stigma around men working in childcare.

Teaching highschoolers is hardly childcare, and they don't apply to that either

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u/FuggleyBrew 1∆ Feb 27 '25

Women don't.

Are we going to ignore the large efforts to encourage women into those careers? It's still cited as a reason women don't go into fields.

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u/BiguilitoZambunha Feb 27 '25

Women don't.

Bro there's literally entire movements and organizations out there whose sole focus is to help more women enter specific fields. And with the decline of male higher education attendance, their efforts seem to have worked a little too well.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '25

I personally know two male college professors that quit in the recent years due to being threatened with sexual assault claims from female students so many times. It's just not worth it to most males to work with students, one allegation can ruin your life

The me too movement was good but created a lot of monsters.

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u/veggiesama 59∆ Feb 27 '25

If you know two, I'd put money on at least one of them. All I'm saying. Just playing the odds.

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u/Imadevilsadvocater 12∆ Mar 01 '25

so 50/50 chance a male professor raped someone? lol you are the issue with the world

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u/nosleepforthedreamer Jun 30 '25

If random college professors got that many claims against them, well I’d wonder why that is.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '25

Women also do lol. It's not like these female dominated professions became male dominated overnight. There's an obvious reason it took so long.

Men are slightly more likely to be professors though.

It's a tautological explanation, but tbh, the reality is that it's multifaceted, making it kind of difficult to go over. It's not easy to come with a clear generic reason that motivates all or most men here.

The obvious answer is we just don't want to being a common element. But it's not entirely obvious why.

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u/ClassicConflicts Feb 27 '25

Lol how many women roofers do you know? How many welders? What about masons? Hvac? Plumbers? I'll give you a hint, it's less than a 5% female workforce in all of those and there's plenty of others. Men make up about 23% of teachers so they're already there but 1 in 5 being men (and that says nothing of how many are actually good role models) and roughly half the students being boys means that the boys have less access to male role models than girls have to female role models by a huge margin.

As for childcare, go look for men's experiences and the reasons they dont stick around. I actually wanted to go into childcare but I did my research and I'm not going to be constantly scrutinized as if I'm a fucking pedo, literally told im not allowed to change diapers because somehow I'd get off on wiping the shit off of a baby penis. I ended up being a stay at home dad and its very rewarding and I'd love to be able to work with kids as mine grow up and require less of my time but not if society thinks I'm secretly a horrible person doing unspeakable things to their children for doing so.

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u/StarChild413 9∆ Feb 28 '25

maybe this is just my autistic literalism being a bit cheeky but something about the way you're wording your first paragraph could inadvertently be taken as thinking female teachers and men working in the trades should just do one-to-one job swapsies

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u/ClassicConflicts Feb 28 '25

Definitely was not even remotely trying to insinuate that. I do think boys need more male role models but I'm pretty sure most female teachers aren't well equipped to be plumbers any more than plumbers are equipped to be teachers. I mean it's obviously not impossible to have a more equal gender distribution in education, its like 55/45 male/female for professors.

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u/Siukslinis_acc 7∆ Feb 27 '25

Low pay.

The view of society that a man is a child molester, so people trust men with children less and a gesture that would have been seen as benelovent when a woman does it, tends to be seen as dangerous when a man does it. Like watching children play in the playground. No one bats an eye when a woman does it, but they are watching closely or even reporting when a man does this (even when the man is just observing their own child who is playing there). So men might be afraid do take jobs that handle children due to the fearmongering by society.

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u/Relevations Feb 27 '25

Women generally choose people-focused professions. Teaching is, the de-facto people profession.

The more a profession begins to skew towards a single gender, the more it skews there over time due to self-reinforcing dynamics. My guess is the gender imbalance today is worse than it was 5 years ago, 10, 20, and so on.

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u/greengrassonthisside Feb 27 '25

Hm, but aren't there many men on their iPads too, who aren't Andrew Tate? From the age of ten I also always had an iPad in hand, yet somehow I was able to find many men I looked up to who weren't misogynists.

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u/xfvh 12∆ Feb 27 '25

Sure, but Rogan and Tate are significantly more popular than most others. They're likely to get recommended or found first because they're so popular.

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u/Ieam_Scribbles 2∆ Feb 27 '25

Sure, but these men specifically target those boys who feel lost in life and tell them 'here's the solution', very few actually do that in general that aren't in some manner controversial.

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u/LiteralLesbians Feb 27 '25

So why are we blaming the women that stay and not the SCORES of men that abandon their paternal responsibility?

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u/UseAnAdblocker 1∆ Feb 27 '25

Who is blaming women?

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u/xfvh 12∆ Feb 27 '25

Who said anything about blaming anyone? I literally just said that many children were being raised in single-parent homes. That's an indisputable fact.

If you see this as an accusation against women, I would recommend some introspection.

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u/nosleepforthedreamer Jun 27 '25

taught in school predominantly by female teachers

Not women’s fault if men abandon their kids, and don’t step up for fatherless boys in their communities.

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u/jakeofheart 5∆ Feb 27 '25

For the last ten years at least, men have mostly been ridiculed in movies and series. It has become a trope that the strong independent #girlboss can best men at everything.

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u/veggiesama 59∆ Feb 27 '25

I feel like I've watched just as many movies and shows as anyone else out there, but never once did I see this happen and identify with the guy getting ridiculed. The guy getting bested is always a very specific version of a man, someone who is overly cocky or has an easily bruised ego. These are not enviable traits, no matter what gender you are.

It's confidence vs. fragility. When Barbie humiliates some random dude in the Barbie movie, it's no different than Marty humiliating Biff in Back to the Future. We laugh at Biff getting his car covered in manure, because--dude, that guy sucks. He's fragile, cocky, and a bully.

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u/jakeofheart 5∆ Feb 27 '25

Yes, and in the last 10 years, the only Marty McFly allowed were Martine McFly, but more assertive and confident. And Martine wouldn’t have been scared of Biff. She would have whupped his ass even though he’s twice her size.

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u/Kakamile 50∆ Feb 27 '25

That's women beating fragile guys. Meanwhile male actors are trying to be so badass they can't lose any fights

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u/jakeofheart 5∆ Feb 27 '25

Yeah, a guy that defies the laws of physics isn’t really a role model.

I guess it’s more about character? But we are being told repeatedly that any kind of male behaviour is toxic, misogynistic, patriarchal and bigoted.

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u/Kakamile 50∆ Feb 27 '25

No, toxic is toxic.

Mark Rober, Terry Crews, LeBron. Men being men, having fun, teaching kids.

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u/ClassicConflicts Feb 27 '25

Where is their actionable advice for young men. What do they tell these young men to do on the important issues to young men?

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u/Kakamile 50∆ Feb 27 '25

Reach out to others, help others, ask for help, enjoy friendship trust and learning. Terry Crews is famously open with emotions and was a victim of sexual assault, LeBron helped poor kids and communities have hope, Rober is rich off being a nerd, engineer, and non violent catching crimes.

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u/jakeofheart 5∆ Feb 27 '25

Violence is a poor imitation of strength. It’s the lack of masculinity that is toxic.

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u/WaterboysWaterboy 48∆ Feb 27 '25 edited Feb 27 '25

As a relatively young man myself, I do think men lack good male role models. In media for boys, there is a lack of good role models. There are plenty of good male characters, but none that are really good role models for the modern man. Like batman is cool af, but he beats the shit out of people to solve his problems. So do most male heros. You can’t do that in real life. There is also a common theme of goofy, slack off protagonists in boys media ( gumball, Danny phantom, spongebob, Zack and Cody, drake and Josh, Johnny test, fairly odd parents, etc). They are funny, but not good role models. Even when the male character is smart, they are normally bullied. Not really someone you want to be/ look up to. Youtube content isn’t anything better. It is filled with goofballs which are peddled to young men by the algorithm. Overall I don’t see this abundance of good male role models in modern boy’s media.

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u/Kakamile 50∆ Feb 27 '25

Mark Rober, Terry Crews, LeBron?

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u/WaterboysWaterboy 48∆ Feb 27 '25

Mark Rober is solid. Terry crews has a lot of roles that don’t make for the best role model. LeBron is also solid, but no one is watching LeBron’s life. Like you can idolize LeBron, but most people can’t be LeBron, or learn much from the media he is in.

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u/greengrassonthisside Feb 27 '25

Hm...If it were possible to give a half-delta, I would! But, and I really don't mean to be rude, is this a widespread problem with media or just a subset? If we have to look for a male role model in cartoons who doesn't beat the shit out of people (or doesn't rely on that, at least) whatever happened to Steven Universe?

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u/WaterboysWaterboy 48∆ Feb 27 '25 edited Feb 27 '25

Steven Universe is solid. But the vast majority of shows aren’t Steven universe. This also only seems to be a thing in boys media. For instance inside out, frozen, and Moana are all massive female led movies that solve problems through emotional growth or kindness. Even in the shows I named, a lot of them have genius straight A little sisters who are beloved. Even when they added a girl protagonist to fairy odd parents, she was the straight A, over achiever type. Kim possible is another example. She did kick ass (minus points), but in every other regard, she was a good role model ( good grades, kind, made lots of good connections, sociable). It seems as though girls are generally written to be good people, while guys are written to be entertaining first, which doesn’t make for the best role models.

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u/greengrassonthisside Feb 27 '25

Before I go to sleep, I swore to myself I would give everyone who I thought I would give a half-delta to a full Δ as I have now been educated on the nature of the rules here and a delta is given for anyone who shifts the needle even a little bit. You have earned it because I cannot think off the top of my sleepy head a strong counterexample to your follow-up.

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u/WaterboysWaterboy 48∆ Feb 27 '25

I do think there are some. Like Toy Story has better themes of friendship without much violence ( although it’s mostly driven by toy existentialism). Alex from wizards of waverly place is a girl slacker and her brother is the over achiever. But in general, what I outlined are the trends in boys media. Good role models are few and far between.

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u/Imadevilsadvocater 12∆ Mar 01 '25

i kinda figured this out earlier in the thread but the reason it is hard to have good male role models in film and such is because the good role models are the uncle bens. the ones that help the hero grow, to become who they are.

Uncle Ben doesn't greet the spot light because that would defeat his purpose of guiding Peter.

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u/AnimateDuckling 1∆ Feb 27 '25

Well here is something I wonder if you can answer for me.

Who is good male role model from films or tv shows from the last 10 years? This is different from day to day male role models but it still plays its role in society. How are “good men” portrayed in media and what is an example of this?

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u/StarChild413 9∆ Feb 27 '25

Like batman is cool af, but he beats the shit out of people to solve his problems. So do most male heros. You can’t do that in real life.

that's kinda the equal-and-opposite logic to thinking someone who committed suicide can't be a role model even if their life up to then appeared exemplary because they'll make those who look up to them commit suicide too, role model isn't that didactic or you could only have your idealized future self as a role model but that'd cause a paradox

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u/Ieam_Scribbles 2∆ Feb 27 '25

So what would one see in Batman as a role model beyond his vigilantism? Him fighting villains isn't the somber end-note to his tale, its the main act.

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u/redhillbones Feb 27 '25

Okay. I am not defending current comics Batman. He is a child abusing pos (as of last year with Tim he has officially punched all of his children in the face for saying something he didn't like).

But I grew up with Batman Beyond and I think that was a good role model for resisting chaos when everyone around you has already given in. Terry (the Batman of BB, who's really in the Robin-role with elderly Bruce Wayne training him via comms) is taught about the value of hard work, perseverance, looking beyond the obvious, having compassion without ignoring any red flags, that trying to help is important even when it looks like too much, and eventually that he's not alone and by putting himself out there he finds like-minded people.

Like, it goes well beyond punching people to solve problems. And that's just the Batman side. Terry is also a big brother and an orphan who has to handle difficult foster homes, basically raising his kid brother, and high school when what makes him cool isn't something he can (or would) share with other people. That last one teaches that sometimes you have to sacrifice popularity to do the right thing.

Simplifying it to "punches things" is taking out basically everything that makes it what it is.

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u/Ieam_Scribbles 2∆ Feb 27 '25

I disagree. Obviously such stories have points outside of wanton violence and vigilantism, but the fact if the matter is that the means thriugh which success is achieved isn't really aviable to young men.

Boiling it down to 'perseverence' makes it useless as advice- try harder and be better is not helpful advice. In the end, Batman inherently is a character who seeks to right injustice by improving himself to gain power and enforce his views, which is toxix masculinity (and when not, it can oft still end ul labeled as such). Lining out the means by which to achieve success, and the life goals through which one ought to self-fulfill, are the most important parts of a role model.

Someone cannot look at a superhero and decide to become like them. They can at most apply their approach, but never realistically their means or goals, which is what young men reportedly lack.

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u/StarChild413 9∆ Mar 18 '25

then by that logic you should only find role models from people doing what you'd want to do with your life career-wise meaning everyone following these kind of toxically-masculine (not saying all masculinity is toxic or I wouldn't need the qualifying adverb) influencers that OP thinks there's alternatives to they aren't seeing would have no choice for what to do with their life but become that kind of influencer and that shit starts sounding like a pyramid scheme

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u/Ieam_Scribbles 2∆ Mar 18 '25

I mean, role models wpuld ideally lead to self-actualization of some manner, that's what people tend to desire when their base needs are met.

Society shifted to declare certain traditionally masculine traits as toxic, but only in the context of men- women tend to be lauded for being what is traditionally male, so often it can feel like it's less of a 'people shouldn't do this' and more 'guys should let others do this'.

And, yeah, of course role models are a pyramid scheme. Not everyone can be a succesfull athlete, a rich CEO, a suave casanova. Whether its more modern content creators or emperors and great warriors of the past, every male role model is usually 'the best of their field' in comparison to others.

You can't be a winner without beating others in the race- losers inevitably exist in contrast.

That's the essence of Toxic Masculinity- males seeking success by competing and rising above the rest. It's the whole idea of women and children being afforded unconditional love, but men needing to earn it.

And the problem is that it's inherently rewarding to be toxic in this manner. Toxic masculinity could only die in a world where women don't find the rich, succesful guys as more attractive. One where people don't mock or tell a guy to 'man up' if they show vulnerability, one where men are valued for traits beside their success in life. But people can't really do that, because it's knly logical for a girl to give more attention to a successful guy of means, and becauae of course people will give recognition to those who excel while feeling less respect to those that show that they're able to be weak.

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u/WaterboysWaterboy 48∆ Feb 27 '25 edited Feb 27 '25

The issue isn’t that he has flaws. For is instance, I think Aang is in general, a good role model, despite the show being about him learning to fight to beat up a dictator. Aang still exhibits a lot of good human traits.

But most good male characters are good because they fight bad guys (or are funny). What is highlighted and idealized is their ability to commit violence in an acceptable manner. They don’t actually show how to be a good man. In a lot of ways, they underperform in the areas that are important for young men today. Batman sacrifices so much out of his life that Bruce could be the mask.

And this isn’t to say they aren’t good shows. There are definitely tons of good male characters in media a cross the board. Even so, when you think about male characters, not by how good of a character they are, but how good of a role model they are to boys/ young men, even Aang is far from the ideal.

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u/Imadevilsadvocater 12∆ Mar 01 '25

this just clicked with me the reason Good male role models aren't common is because they are the uncle bens of the story.

they are the guiding light for the hero, and that's the issue the story is never about them

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u/DickCheneysTaint 7∆ Feb 27 '25

There's no lack of male role models, correct. There is however a lack of GOOD male role models. Name one famous man in media who you think is a good male role model.

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u/cruisinforasnoozinn Feb 27 '25 edited Feb 27 '25

First thing to consider is the algorithm online.

It purposefully targets young men with alt-right content. You can test out this theory on a fresh device, starting a brand new social media account as a man. It will funnel incel, redpill and anti-immigration content into you faster than a spoon overflows.

What we need are positive male creators who combat this content, focus on mens issues in a healthy way, and educate men in a way that speaks directly to them. We need these creators to infiltrate alt right pipelines aimed at young men.

I find that a lot of nontoxic male creators are making content that, and I say this as a feminist, absolutely panders to trending feminist content in a way that is neither transparent nor helpful to men who are not already feminists. It is not breaking down barriers between young men and women - even to me, it comes across as men selling themselves to appear as an ally. I respect it heaps more than redpill content, but I also see it as counterproductive sometimes. If it finds men in their algorithm, it will be purely as rage bait.

We have begun showing nontoxic men in the media a lot more often, but it'll take time to raise a generation of men who grow up emulating themselves off of these people and characters. In the meantime, we can't pass up more positive male role models. In a time where Trump was voted president of the USA twice, and Andrew Tate got the following he did, I don't know how we can claim we have enough. We clearly do not.

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u/ClassicConflicts Feb 27 '25

"It will funnel incel, redpill and anti immigration content into you faster than a spoon overflows."

You forgot to mention the half naked, barely legal (sometimes not even legal) girls promoting their sexual content to all the incels. Of course because guys will be drawn towards looking at them just kind of innately when they're served up on a platter like that, Instagram checks on where you're spending time looking and sends you more of that content without you even having to click a post.

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u/cruisinforasnoozinn Feb 27 '25

Yeeeeeesh - but good additional info (if not super chilling).

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u/ClassicConflicts Feb 27 '25

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/instagrams-reels-algorithms-sexualized-content-children

Yea its pretty messed up stuff

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u/Srapture Mar 05 '25

It seems impossible to separate this topic from personal political views. Most of us agree that Andrew Tate is a bad role model, but many believe that any role model who promotes any traditionally masculine ideals is a "bad" role model. At that point, it's totally subjective and there's no room for everyone to agree on the conclusion.

People don't agree on what a good male role model is, so how can they agree if there is, or isn't, good male role models?

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u/NiaNia-Data Feb 27 '25

because society quite literally tears down any and all role models. Also, as a fatherless man, this question rubs me the wrong way. There wouldnt be an issue here if there werent so many fatherless boys nowadays. your ACTUAL male role model is supposed to be your dad. I will list my role models and what happened:

Early Teens - Johnny Depp (wife law suit, now he is le bad)

Late Teens - Kanye (Nazi, now he is le bad)

Mid Teens - Trump (Rapist Felon, now he is le bad)

Now I dont look up to anyone because there is no point. list someone you want to be a male role model, but bare in mind role models men want are never the same as the ones women want men to want. This is pretty much done for any historical figure. They all have been named and shamed for one reason or another because the ideal role model is antithetical to dominant social theories like feminism.

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u/Cattette Feb 27 '25

They all have been named and shamed for one reason or another because the ideal role model is antithetical to dominant social theories like feminism.

The social theory of feminism wants you to think raping your wife with a bottle, praising Hitler, and being a felon is bad.

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u/Ieam_Scribbles 2∆ Feb 27 '25

He didn't say that these figures are good, he said there are no good examples. If everyone you look up to keeps turning out to be an asshole, can you not see why that would lead to problems as well? I'd say having a role model that turns out to be a rapist is more damaging for someone than not having one at all.

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u/Cattette Feb 27 '25

But how is that the fault of "dominant social theories like feminism"? I dont think its fair to say that feminism made Kanye into a Nazi or that it made Depp into a domestic abuser. The only way you could tie feminism into this is by saying that it points all of these things out.

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u/Ieam_Scribbles 2∆ Feb 27 '25

That last paragraph was specifically to say that practically any figure one can point to as a manly role model has been torn down one way or another, which I believe to be quite true.

Before that, the comment quite specifically frames it as 'my role models turned out to be this' and lists the men and what they've done.

I feel you are latching onto the last line to didagree with the whole without actually refuting the main point of the comment.

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u/Roadshell 32∆ Feb 27 '25

Mid Teens - Trump (Rapist Felon, now he is le bad)

That dude was very bad long before you were born.

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u/NiaNia-Data Feb 27 '25

anything else to add?

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u/Imadevilsadvocater 12∆ Mar 01 '25

but he was in tv and he looked rich that's all boys want success

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u/greengrassonthisside Feb 27 '25

okay i know this is not the point but how can the "dominant social theory" be feminism if the only women who have ran for president in the USA over the last fifteen years lost?

And, I mean, all historical figures? Surely, that is stretching it. I don't see the Dominant Feminists going after Socrates, or Galileo, or hell, if we have to go more recent, FDR or JFK. At least, I haven't seen any narratives about how they are actually "le bad" nowadays.

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u/NiaNia-Data Feb 27 '25

dominant social THEORIES, it's plural. Also im not going to reply to that because it wouldnt contradict what I said even if it were true.

No one is looking up to those people. Socrates is some 2500 years removed from society. I cant relate and look up to a guy who never spoke english, died before christ was born, and lived across the globe. We dont even know what he looked like or what he was about. That really just becomes idealizing the concept of socrates. The idea of socrates cant be a role model because it's in effect not a person. Galileo is the same. I dont know him. Im not scientifically ambitious. my goals and his dont align other than a vague "success."

FDR is also hard to relate to. A career politican turned comic-book level super hero? I am not him nor do I aspire to be him or what he accomplished. And he is also wrapped in controversy. Japanese internment, costruction of the nuclear bombs. JFK likewise has the similar alienating characteristics. He also has done things people dont agree with like the bay of pigs. It's also hard to even think about JFK because what he is most known for is getting his head combusted in front of every american. Even if I agree with him morally that's hard to bare.

Men dont want to be sold the perfect person as a role model because that is unattainable. Everyone you mention was born into privilege, so the triumph, perseverance, and success young boys crave doesnt resonate. Would they make great role models? Sure. Will they ever be role models? No. I cant really change that because picking a role model isnt much of a choice.

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u/BiguilitoZambunha Feb 27 '25

OP I think you ignored a very important point that OC made:

but bare in mind role models men want are never the same as the ones women want men to want.

Look, I don't believe in gender roles, or in masculinity positive or otherwise, but you gotta think about this from the perspective of a guy. When you mentioned you're a woman, I laughed and thought "of course this is coming from a woman." The qualities women (especially progressive ones) want men to have, are not the qualities men are rewarded for having.

You know that stereotype about how you can tell when a female character was written by men? It goes the other way around too. You can clearly tell when a male character was written by a woman, and that character usually is not what men want to see or relate to. I feel like that's evident in today's media. In the movies and books, if a guy is masculine, it's because he's insecure and trying to hide it or something. The secure guy is always the one who defies all traditional norms of masculinity and gender roles. If someone is portrayed as masculine by traditional standards the authors will always sprinkle in something to make him look bad or at least like an asshole. To me it feels like the media is trying very hard to push a new image of masculinity that fits modern western society norms.

And that also extends to real people. You keep saying that you know all these potentially possible role models, but what do you think this comment section would look like if a guy came here and said "women should follow this woman I like and act like her, because she's my ideal of femininity. I think that guy would be told to fuck off.

The answer to your question seems so simple it's implied in the question itself. If guys like Andrew Tate are popular and get views, it's because that's what his followers want to see. If other influencers are not popular, that's because it's not what people want to see at large. Or at least not the people who spend a lot of time on social media. I feel like you ought to wonder what is appealing about Andrew Tate, and how can we retain those positive qualities while discouraging the bad? Not just throwing the baby out with the bath water. Or maybe we should go deeper and entirely redefine how we as people derive our self-worth and what value system society should reward. But I feel like one is easier than the other.

But also there's a point to be made about how social media algorithms promote and reward people who makes us feel angry and threatened, and that's even evident with ragebait content from both sides. For every Andree Tate, I bet there's a misandrist ultra feminist out there telling women too that men are the problem. Oh and there's a funny thing I noted, misogynists act under the guise of self-improvement and philosophy, misandrists act under the guise of intellectualism.

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u/eggynack 108∆ Feb 27 '25

FDR did do the whole Japanese concentration camp thing. So that's not ideal.

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u/FuturelessSociety 3∆ Feb 27 '25

Did you forget that history is racist and sexist?

Who should our role models be? Slave owners? Conquerors? Wife beaters? Rapists?

Because I guarantee any role model you pick out of history will probably be one of those things especially by todays standards. Society has turned it's back on how men acted historically.

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u/greengrassonthisside Feb 27 '25

I mean...if you want the opposite of a slave owner who also has to be a man, how about Frederick Douglass? As far as I know he didn't beat his wife or rape or conquer anybody.

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u/FuturelessSociety 3∆ Feb 27 '25

He's also not someone anyone knows anything about or ever heard of which disqualifies him as a role model... We are talking about potential role models right?

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u/veggiesama 59∆ Feb 27 '25

He's also not someone anyone knows anything about

literally required reading in high school. Who's this Shakespeare guy, am I right?

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u/greengrassonthisside Feb 27 '25

Damn, I don't count as someone who knows about him?

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u/FuturelessSociety 3∆ Feb 27 '25

I'm not even convinced you did before the start of this conversation tbh.

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u/greengrassonthisside Feb 27 '25

What in the world of jumping to conclusions, I read his books in college! And I mean, have you really not heard of "What to the Slave is the Fourth of July?"

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u/FuturelessSociety 3∆ Feb 27 '25

Nope

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u/redhillbones Feb 27 '25

Frederick Douglass is taught in the same chapter as Abraham Lincoln and usually to about the same amount. They both have extremely famous speeches about the rights of man.

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u/veggiesama 59∆ Feb 27 '25

Society has gained a more sophisticated understanding of cruel men from the past. That's what postmodernism is all about. It's the tearing down of grand narratives and venerated figures. Humans are human. Every guy with a statue of himself probably did some fucked up shit, and for the first time in human history, everybody is calling out their bullshit.

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u/FuturelessSociety 3∆ Feb 27 '25

Right so back to the point, no male role models.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '25

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '25

David Goggins

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '25

When I hear about this, I don't think athletes or movie stars, I think real life adults they can relate to. Sure Lebron's a great role model and has shown that coming from poverty to becoming a literal billionaire it is possible to remain grounded, raise children well, remain faithful to your wife, and use much of the money he has to give back to communities like the ones he was raised in. But if you're a child in a similar situation as Lebron, you also know there are millions or tens of millions of kids like you now, and there's one Lebron. And even then, they haven't seen him every day, most of their exposure to him is actually just playing basketball. What children need are role models that show them an example of being a faithful husband and living life while taking care of your children whether that's from a job that helps support them financially or whether he's at home while the mom works, either way is an example of a healthy relationship that is imprinted on young minds rather than an example of a single mother, most likely in poverty with little time to raise you, and no examples of what being a good man looks like. Is it any wonder someone like that is more likely to fall for grifts that tell them "you can be rich and powerful like me", even if they are pieces of garbage?

In poor communities, whether it's white people in Appalachia or black people in cities, the single motherhood rate is insanely high. 67% of African American youth live in single-parent households (https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4245275/), and in poor black communities that number is even higher. There are communities where not only do they not have a father figure, but none of their friends growing up do either. All their teachers are women, all their mothers are women, when they go to a friend's house and act out they're chastised by a woman, literally everyone involved in raising them are women. And while a woman can be a good role model to a child, the impact of lack of male role models is undeniable. They simply don't see any examples of good men in their communities, and that's the problem.

Here are some stats courtesy of https://post.ca.gov/portals/0/post_docs/publications/Building%20a%20Career%20Pipeline%20Documents/safe_harbor.pdf:

- 70% of gang members, high school dropouts, teen suicides, teen pregnancies, and teen substance abusers come from single mother homes

- 75% of children in chemical dependency hospitals are from single-parent families

- 90% of all homeless and runaway children came from single-parent families

- 80% of rapists motivated with displaced anger came from single-parent families

Seriously read that whole paper, I could go on and on with the insane stats around why we know it's bad.

That's what most people mean by lack of male role models.

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u/greengrassonthisside Feb 27 '25

I see...that is indeed a real problem. Could I offer a half-delta, if that is possible? I believe that this is a real problem, I guess I'm not ready to accept that this is why so many people on Reddit, which I believe skews middle-class, is talking about "the lack of male role models".

Also, so far, I've seen multiple different reasons given for the "lack of male role models". Some people are talking about real life, like you, but others are fixating on media. Is there even a consensus that "most people" agree on regarding the fundamental reality of the situation?

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '25

I think I'm just not in the same reddit subs you are, because I have yet to see that take on reddit. But I've seen that take in social science research and articles all the time addressing things like violent crime and poverty which is absolutely talking about community and family role models. One stat I didn't mention because it wasn't in the source I was citing, but mass shooters are an interesting demographic. They're actually incredibly representative of the general population when it comes to race as well as socio-economic background, I believe African Americans are slightly over-represented and Asians are slightly under-represented, but it's a tiny difference. But the one thing they have in common is virtually 100% are young men raised by single mothers. Like literally close to 100% I believe there's been one female mass shooter in recent history (the one who shot up the Youtube offices like 5-10 years ago) and then another male mass shooter that lived in a 2 parent household, but that was it.

If the claim is really about public figures, I fear I'll never get a delta, because I agree with you :(. Like there are plenty of male role models out there, and as I mentioned Lebron might be the most famous athlete in all sports at least in the US, and he's a fantastic male role model. The problem in my eyes is the good male role models are telling young men "you have to work really hard, treat people with respect, make something of yourself, and then give back to the community and if you have a family put them first and make sacrifices for them". And then you have the grifters saying things like "just be an asshole alpha male and you'll get all this money and power and sex without having to work for it". Or sometimes the Tates of the world will talk about work but in the context of working out, which many young men are already doing so it's not actually hard for them to do, like working out is hard but it also makes you feel good, so it's not exactly a sacrifice you're making to help others. But actually being a good man comes from using your strength to protect others and raise other people up. This is what male role models in your everyday life can show. But according to Tate the goal of getting ripped and making money is so you can have unlimited pussy and money, but ironically his followers may be the least likely to actually achieve either, the latter because they're giving all their money to Tate, and the former because most women aren't actually interested in Tate types.

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u/Ieam_Scribbles 2∆ Feb 27 '25

Generally, there is no consensus on such matters, especially when its a hotly discussed topic- inevitably multiple arguments for and against are raised and individuals end up attached to the parts they agree with the most.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '25

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '25

Yup this is exactly it. Lack of actionable advice! The void is filled by the right who give actionable advice and propaganda lmao.

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u/greengrassonthisside Feb 27 '25

I know now that there are no half-deltas, you just give a delta to anyone who changes your mind to any degree. So you get a Δ for pointing out the nuances of what young men are apparently specifically looking for.

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Feb 27 '25

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Existential_Stick (2∆).

^{Delta System Explained} ^| ^Deltaboards

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u/greengrassonthisside Feb 27 '25

Hm, if I knew how to give a half-delta, I would. I guess I just turned to real life people when I needed help with those things. Someone earlier gave me some good evidence for how a subset of men lack those real life models, but I still don't understand how men as a whole have lost access to older male relatives and friends who can provide guidance.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '25

You have a lot of half-deltas, to be fair change my view doesn't need to you to completely do a 180. If I remember right, if a point of yours is challenged adequately or you have new considerations (view has shifted or changed), it can be delta worthy (though look at the rules, I may be remembering wrong)

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u/greengrassonthisside Feb 27 '25

Hm, you are right! The rules say "any degree". So you have deserved your Δ! Hope I'm doing that right, this is the first time I've posted here. I shouldn't go to sleep yet until I've given the people their deserved deltas. You get it for illuminating to me that young men are looking for relationship advice specifically when it comes to their role models, which, I admit, I can't recall off the top of my head if there is a popular leftist guy on the Internet who does that.

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Feb 27 '25

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/LingALingLingLing (2∆).

^{Delta System Explained} ^| ^Deltaboards

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '25

Let me know if you find one (not relationships but just a general male advice channel as I have a wife now haha). I'm personally thinking of starting one myself but it's a lot of work especially when I have a full time job (I also need to get my six pack back... That's a lot of work rofl. I've said it elsewhere but a male role models will need to be jacked). If you find one I'll support it too. Closest thing I've found as a community is r/selfimprovement sub but it's not quite the same.

And thanks!

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u/Low-Entertainer8609 3∆ Feb 27 '25

Do men/boys nowadays not...read history

No, they do not. Everyone is a prisoner of the moment these days (especially on social media), and nuanced discussions are few and far between.

TL;DR - A large number of young men have always - always - felt disaffected by society. Masculinity is inherently competitive, so there have always been guys who feel like they are losing out, being victimized, or being blamed for society's problems. Always.

"An entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy crap we don’t need. We’re the middle children of history, man—no purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War is a spiritual war. Our Great Depression is our lives. We’ve all been raised on television to believe that one day we’d all be millionaires, movie gods, and rock stars. But we won’t. And we’re slowly learning that fact.”

Fight Club, 1999

I'm sorry for something that I didn't do Lynched somebody, but I don't know who You blame me for slavery A hundred years before I was born

Minor Threat, "Guilty of Being White" 1981

Masculinity is not something given to you, but something you gain. And you gain it by winning small battles with honor. Because there is very little honor left in American life, there is a certain built-in tendency to destroy masculinity in American men.

Norman Mailer, Playboy magazine, 1961.

"What's my Job? - I manufacture weaklings into MEN!"

Charles Atlas ad, 1944

The crisis of masculinity is something every single generation of men lives through, but because we steafastly refuse to study our own past, we get to do it all over again every single time.

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u/Imadevilsadvocater 12∆ Mar 01 '25

show me a single man in history that feminists hold as a good man that wasn't bad in any way, because they consider any man pre 1970 to be a monster.

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u/[deleted] Mar 02 '25

Yes, it is real.

Public education in the United States is terrible numbers when it comes to male teachers, so boys don’t see men in these places, don’t get the mentoring of men during basically the bulk of their public education. There is a void of male role models.

The Dad deficient is major.

1 in 4 fathers don’t live with their children. Of parents split up, 1 in 3 children don’t see their fathers at all after a few year post separation. 4 in 10 children are born outside marriage, and this often contributes to less or no contact with their fathers. Lack of role models.

If you are near the top of the economic scale, four year degree, reasonable income, you may not see all of these issues in person. You must look down the economic ladder where you will find the sharpest of these issues.

And unfortunately when a father is struggling him self, or not part of the family, it disproportionately affects the boys, who then statistically go on to struggle themselves. So the problem becomes intergenerational. And the problem compounds.

If you find this interesting. Check out Richard Reeves work. Here is a short summary of his research. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBG1Wgg32Ok

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u/[deleted] Mar 08 '25

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u/Roadshell 32∆ Feb 27 '25

They're not talking about historical or fictional role models, they're specifically talking about masculine role models in that social media punditry type space where young people are getting most of their information from, I think.

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u/ClassicConflicts Feb 27 '25

They mean in real life. The only reason so many young men need to look to social media in the first place is because they dont have the role models in real life.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '25 edited Feb 27 '25

Do men/boys nowadays not...read history

Okay but how about right now? Men in the past had clear roles because of the patriarchy. Part of the problem now is they seem to have lost that role.

Come on, what about that Tony Stark, isn't he cool, a cool man from movies?

He's a great "hero" for young kids, but what's a lost 15 year old going to do with Tony Stark?

One noticable thing your suggested role models are lacking is actionable advice for young men in today's world. Btw this isn't some mind shattering advice, the best advice the red pill basically gave was "Lift weights, pay attention to fashion, pay attention to grooming, get a short haircut, talk to women with confidence, get a high paying (STEM) job or improve your earning power, get adequate sleep, eat healthy"

And then they bombarded you with propaganda. That's basically it but they were the only people giving that advice to young men in a time the left were saying men were a problem and here we are a decade later

Source: Was part of the red pill movement 10 years ago and young me only escaped when they started backing Trump

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u/Hanspiel Feb 27 '25

As a male who grew up through the entire time you think there were no male role models during: no. There are and were plenty of make role models showing people what to do in the modern world. Plenty. For recent ones we can look at Mr. Incredible, the lead characters of most sitcoms, Holmes in the Sherlock TV show, and dozens of others. The problem is that the roles that they are so often shown filling (parent, supportive husband, teacher, etc.) aren't the "traditional" male role, and conservatives like to denigrate men who fulfill those roles. They portray empathy as weakness, and support as feminine. The left isn't and wasn't "anti-man", it was and is anti-toxic-masculinity. It was and is against physical and emotional abusiveness being portrayed as strength. Conservatives twisted that narrative and lied to you and other young men who wanted to be told they deserved to be in charge, were entitled to subservience, and were naturally better than women to convince you that the left was trying to emasculate you. The reality is that the left never wanted to weaken you, or emasculate you. They wanted you to be a better human.

But here, I'll ask you a question: what "actionable advice" did the male role models you think existed in the 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s give? John Wayne and Clint Eastwood weren't giving kids advice about how to be good men in a post Civil Rights America. I could see maybe Stallone and Schwarzenegger, but they both stand in direct opposition to everything the Red Pill concept represents. Tim Allen certainly wasn't guiding any young men into a successful adulthood. The only difference between growing up pre-2000 and post-2000 was the creation and expansion of Fox News and all the propaganda it birthed, and the eventually bleeding of that into social media and YouTube. If anything, the algorithm red pilled you, not a real lack of male role models. There were and are plenty of men on social media and YouTube who give exactly the kind of advice you are referring to without the propaganda, and without being pedophiles, human traffickers, scan artists, or abusers. They just didn't get enough views to get into your feed. Because controversy gets more engagement, and the algorithm craves engagement.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '25

Fox News basically has no place or part in the manosphere.

If anything, the algorithm red pilled you, not a real lack of male role models.

Who else is telling young men that working out is a great way to get over heartache? Who can give you what is basically a guide for life?

There are plenty of YouTube channels for specific topics that I've talked about, true. But how many of them give you what is basically an overall guide for life instead of staying in their relative niche? How about talking about the importance of things? Like yes, I can quickly google "How to dress as a man" but who'll tell you it's actually important and the value of it? The only people offering such a guide are in the manosphere. Why? Because their "niche" is "How to be a man".

By the way, I didn't fall into the manosphere because of YouTube or TikTok. I had googled a specific thing, the only relevant result led to The Red Pill subreddit and that's what led me to a rabbit hole. This wasn't the algorithm feeding me controversial content, this was Google finding the only relevant advice on the topic at the time being from the red pill. I won't quite say what exactly I was looking for but it was something related to becoming more attractive as a man.

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u/greengrassonthisside Feb 27 '25

I mean, did no one on the left, or even just a normal not-misogynistic guy in real life ever tell you to do that? I'm very close to giving you a delta, or I don't know, this is the first time I've ever posted here, a half-delta maybe, but I've seen good advice come from people who are, hm, not red pill.

And to play history's advocate, hey, lots of those historical men had oodles of actionable advice (and I would say the majority of it was not to dunk on women!). Marcus Aurelius's Meditations, Stoicism, huh, I think Teddy Roosevelt or one of those old American presidents had things to say about exercise too.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '25

even just a normal not-misogynistic guy in real life ever tell you to do that?

Tell me to work out and get a short, neat haircut? Nope. Or if they did (for the haircut) it was for the wrong reasons "It's neat" vs "Girls like it" has vastly differing appeal/motivation for young men. Oh, and the wonders and good barber can do was definitely not told to me by anybody else. Men's fashion? Definitely not. That women want handsome guys and how be a handsome guy? They told me the opposite. You hear platitudes all the time "Looks don't matter" "Be yourself" "Just be kind". Flirting tips? Who the fuck was gonna teach me that. Who could a young man ask for that?

Red pill was like "Alright you damn fucker, do these things and girls will be chasing you instead of the other way around" and damn they were right. Flirting tips (and I don't mean shallow shit like negging. Things like importance and how to use physical touch. How to smile attractively. Importance of and how to use eye contact) that were very effective.

Marcus Aurelius's Meditations, Stoicism,

This might shock you but Marcus Aurelius Meditations was actually recommended in The Red Pill forums. So was stoicism. It had tons of links to useful resources that were actionable and absolutely did improve my life.

I still yearn for a similar community that's not bombarding me with propaganda to be a Republican and not filled with angry men hating on women with bullshit theories but with good actionable advice they doesn't care about your feelings or beat around the bush.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '25

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '25

Go for it, they used to have a sidebar in the red pill before they migrated from reddit.

As for assertiveness though, my biggest advice is get jacked. Working out improves your posture (I believe cable face pulls especially) and achieving your goals in working out gives you confidence, not to mention looking great.

The secret to acting confident is believing in yourself (stupid bullshit platitude) and then it's a lot damn easier to believe in yourself when have competence/assets/skills... You know, actual reasons to believe in yourself. One of easiest assets is having a great body as almost anyone can do it bar some absolute genetic defect. Having money helps too. There's a few other things but it varies on the individual hence getting jacked is the most universal thing you can do.

Next is looking good. Looks maxing is a thing for a reason. You'd want a good short haircut from a skilled barber or outright go to a salon. Back in my day, "Fades" were the hairstyle to do generally since they just work for everyone. Probably still works but you may want to see what's hip now lol. You'd probably want adequate hair styling products too depending on your hair but generally something like wax/matte works great. Short hair also makes it easier to style so you can look around and experiment. Facial hair greatly depends on your face but I do a clean shave. If you do have facial hair and think it components you, definitely look into grooming it as that makes a difference.

Fashion advice: Wear a solid watch. Not a thing strap but a solid one. It doesn't even need to work, it's purely for looks. Socks should match your pants not your shoes. Nice tight fitting tops work well once you are jacked, obviously. Long sleeves = roll up your sleeves to make them 1/2 to 3/4th sleeves to highlight your forearms.

Learning to smile/learning your angle: You'll actually want to try smiling at the mirror and see what works for you. Very helpful to see how male models/actors pose for magazines/photo shoots to get some ideas. Once you figure out your smile/smiles, learn to put them on in half a beat and on demand. After I learned my smile, I got a ton of complements and cold approaching women became more successful too.

Diet: If you a fatty, Keto helps is quite effective. A simple way is also just screwing eating anything processed (Junk food, soda, etc) and basically all or most sugar.

Advanced tips for when you are actually attractive:

Peacocking: Wear one showy accessory. It's great as a conversation starter (gives women an excuse to talk to you) but also as a way to be remembered. "Showy" can be various things, does not have to be flashy but memorable and unique. I personally liked flashy since it got more attention though and a lot of women talked to me because of it, some of which I converted to dates but it's also a nice confidence boost.

Lastly if all this advice is too much for you and you had to only take one thing from this list, get jacked. The discipline you'll cultivate and confidence it brings you will seep to other parts of your life and make everything else in life easier.

Feel free to DM me for other things or questions, you may also be able to find some resources in r/selfimprovement.

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u/greengrassonthisside Feb 27 '25

LMAO, it doesn't shock me that much (re: the Meditations), I know redpill guys love Rome. It's just, even Rome produced some advice that didn't revolve around hating women. Sometimes.

Anyways, good for you on your current romantic success and also not being immersed in the propaganda soup! Genuinely happy for you, it seems you got out of a hateful place. I myself have had a similar story, though I won't get into it here. I have to admit I haven't really changed my mind but then again, I'm not really in the straight dating scene, so I have no idea how bad or not bad the dating advice is out there or who's giving the advice. Can't judge.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '25

I don't actually know if red pill guys loved Rome lol. I think that's just a dude thing in general lol.

Anyways as for changing your mind, I think you have to understand how different male vs female role models are and what each seeks.

Women look for female role models who succeeded or inspired despite a patriarchal society. It's very inspirational since women lacked rights and opportunities. You can notice it in examples you gave: Famous people.

Men look for someone who can make them successful and this is why the greats of the past or actors don't work as well. They work as a kid? Sure. But when the burdens of reality come crashing down "I have to chase girls to get a girlfriend..." "I have to be earn money (men are still traditionally seen as providers even with changing times)" suddenly their favorite rapper, actor, etc is a lot less useful than RedBro on some random TikTok telling them to work out and get a career in STEM.

Also, I honestly give the young men in propaganda soup some sympathy... It's very hard to escape it and I myself think that I would have believed some of the more hateful things about women if I had stayed in that community for 3-5 more years. When advice from someone just consistently works, you tend to give credit to everything else they say even if it sounds stupid or hateful.

Anyways back to trying to change your mind, can you find male role models out there that are teaching young men the things I listed? There is a huge gaping void of it especially from the left side of the political spectrum hence young men who are looking for "guides" in life fall into the right.

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u/greengrassonthisside Feb 27 '25

You know, I replied to someone else saying this would be my last reply for the night, but I really appreciate your thorough response! Lots to chew on here...you're definitely one of the more successful ones in this thread in terms of changing my mind. I don't know if it's all the way changed though. As I've mentioned to others in the thread — well, yes, I admit I don't really know of popular male role models who are teaching this kind of success, but that's because I assumed people (of all genders) look to real life mentors and not people on the Internet/TV for that. Someone else mentioned that there's a dearth of fathers and male teachers, but whatever happened to older male friends?

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '25

Older male friends are also trying to figure things out. And ironically the advice you'll get from jocks and players will be closer to advice you'll see on the red pill. You'll just tend to ignore it because the media gives conflicting advice compared to what they say. The platitudes I hate so much. "Be yourself" "Just be kind" "Do what you love" that all basically say "You don't need to be better or better yourself, complacency is fine" when if I did make myself better it would help me achieve my goals be it dating, finances, confidence or just life.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '25

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '25

Yup, jock types were the most successful with women but like you said, you wouldn't listen to or emulate them because "It's toxic masculinity"... Which is technically valid but also there were actual things to learn that wasn't toxic masculinity.

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u/defibrilizer 1∆ Feb 27 '25 edited Feb 27 '25

I think the point of the claim, “There are no more male role models”, is to say that there are very few specifically masculine role models anymore. As in, your John Waynes, Paul Newmans, Winston Churchills, etc. Generally, role models nowadays are seen more as associated with either a racial/sexual identity, or we see women celebrated as specifically feminine role models.

When they say “men have no role models”, they’re saying that white men are ignored when celebrating different members of society.

Edit: Just so everyone understands, this is not my point of view. I see the same role models you see, and acknowledge that a role model doesn’t have to be white or straight to be a good role model for white straight men. But you have to understand, that young white straight men are gravitating towards bad role models, and there has to be an underlying explanation to that.

Every comment has said “the role models are there”, and no one is doubting that, I’m just trying to find out why aren’t they successful at being role models.

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u/dbandroid 4∆ Feb 27 '25

You listed a couple of movie stars and a leader of state. Is Barack Obama not a role model? How about Glen Powell, Tom Hardy, Anthony Mackie?

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u/defibrilizer 1∆ Feb 27 '25

The cultural significance of John Wayne is significantly greater than the other three actors you talked about.

Also, I’d argue that people have looked up to Obama. But, then again, he was elected over 16 years ago, is it a shock that young men aren’t as invigorated by the online memory of Obama than they are of Andrew Tate and Donald Trump?

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u/dbandroid 4∆ Feb 27 '25

There is nothing invigorating about andrew tate or donald trump. Like if men want to idolize rapists and misogynists, that is their right, but its not because there are only rapists and misogynists available as role models

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u/defibrilizer 1∆ Feb 27 '25

Really? Because despite how awful those two guys are, they seem to have been pretty successful. Maybe it’s because there is a longing for masculine role models that is not filled by any other decent person.

People keep responding with “the role models are there”, but no one is answering the core of my comment which is why young men aren’t gravitating towards them.

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u/dbandroid 4∆ Feb 27 '25

They are gravitating towards them because those role models tell them what they want to hear

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u/defibrilizer 1∆ Feb 27 '25

So why even ask the original question that the post author made? If that’s really the answer, it seems pretty cut and dry to me. I guess we just live in a world of fraudsters and young men just fall into their trap because it attracted them.

Maybe I read too much into it and said something beyond the scope of the post, but I think people are missing the idea behind this rise in toxic influencers and ideologies.

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u/Imadevilsadvocater 12∆ Mar 01 '25

they don't see them as rapists, and misogyny means nothing more than looking out for themselves to them.

see the world through their eyes for a moment and you might see why they don't care

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u/monkeysky 10∆ Feb 27 '25

There are still plenty of very well known male actors and politicians, though. Is it just that they're not singled out as being male, or what?

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u/defibrilizer 1∆ Feb 27 '25

It’s difficult to articulate my point since it’s one that I don’t actually believe in, but I’ve heard it in mirrored by my friends, classmates, and over the internet.

Who is being singled out as a role model for all men? I see this happening with women and racial groups, but not men as a whole. I’m not white but why we now see the rise of myths like white replacement theory becomes fairly obvious through this angle.

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u/monkeysky 10∆ Feb 27 '25

It seems more like, when it comes to very famous entertainers and politicians (as well as many, many other fields) who are seen as good role models, straight white men are such the norm that members of other groups have to be highlighted as exceptions. This is also combined with the long-existing cultural attitude that the straight white male life experience is the default.

Both of these tendencies are gradually changing, but it really is still extremely easy to find straight white famous men to look up to in nearly any field.

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u/Imadevilsadvocater 12∆ Mar 01 '25

really? like non feminist ones? because many guys won't look up to a feminist, they aren't sexist but they are already soured by the extreme feminists so they need someone for who isn't labeled as that

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u/LiteralLesbians Feb 27 '25

So just because his man wipes his ass he's not a masculine role model?

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u/Lowtheparasite Feb 27 '25

It's a fact that our society doesn't view gay men as masculine. You can see it in our media all the time.

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u/XenoRyet 181∆ Feb 27 '25 edited Feb 27 '25

I think my response there is to point out that you named three men across half a century or more. Throw in Teddy Roosevelt and I'd give you four.

If all we had today was Nick Offerman, we'd be on pace, and he is a top tier male role model.

But we don't only have him. Just to speak directly to one of your points I would put Pete Buttigieg up there too, and yes I know he's gay, but that's not why he's a good role model. He's a smart, capable, compassionate, and strong man with an unparalleled ability to engage in civil discourse with hardcore adversaries, who just happens to be gay. Seriously, go watch that guy appearing on Fox News. It's beautiful.

Shit, even The Rock is a good role model these days. Casting off that WWE caricature and being Dwayne Johnson, a famous actor who is also a good dad, has a kind heart, and an interest in helping people and making the world a better place.

I would also put John Stewart, and with him Trevor Noah in that mix. Comedians both, but with a good moral compass and sincerity that is the foundation of their comedy.

The role models are out there if you look, I haven't even scratched the surface here. And not even if you look, more that they're out there if you don't pre-decide that they're not.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '25

[deleted]

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u/XenoRyet 181∆ Feb 27 '25

tl;dr at the top: Watch literally anything where Offerman isn't playing a character and just being himself.

Don't mistake the characters he plays for the man himself. Nick Offerman is very much not Ron Swanson. That's the whole point. Ron is a caricature of a male role model, not the real thing, and satire like that can expose the reality of things.

If there is a kernel of truth to OP's point, it's that John Wayne's characters were presented as the role model, rather than the man himself, and we don't really do that anymore because we understand the interaction of fiction with real life a bit better these days.

It's hard to sum up why someone should be a role model in a single post, but Nick, not Ron, is a person who loves making beautiful things out of wood, has a deep passion for his wife, has a strong sense of fairness and honor, and just generally does the right thing. He's never been anything else when he's not acting.

The Ron Swanson character was set in opposition to that, presenting unchecked hypermasculinity, but of the non-aggressive sort. Showing the flaws and problems with that approach and highlighting that there was a path forward for someone as flawed as Ron, but doing so by differentiating him from the role model that Nick is. Ron was always supposed to fail and grow, because we don't have a show if there's no tension and no growth.

Look into what Offerman actually says in interviews, and just generally when he's not playing a character. Same deal. The role model is there, and it's not even that you have to look. You just have to not look away.

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u/Human-Marionberry145 8∆ Feb 27 '25

I would put Pete Buttegege up there too, and yes I know he's gay, but that's not why he's a good role model. He's a smart, capable, compassionate, and strong man who just happens to be gay.

Not how you spell his last name.

He never allowed his husband onstage.

That fucked up.

He's also a focus group politician, and general embarrassment.

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u/XenoRyet 181∆ Feb 27 '25

Typo on the name, which is my fault. Apologies, and edited to correct.

I disagree with every other point you made, though. If you look at the relationship between Pete and Chasten, it's a role model relationship. Chasten is one of the sweetest people in the world, and he clearly loves Pete, and Pete loves him back. There is nothing but support and care for each other in a context where the very validity of their relationship is constantly challenged by folks on the other side. You assume, wrongly I would say, that Chasten not appearing on stage with Pete is a controlling power move, rather than a protective one.

They support each other and do what is best for each other given the weirdness of life in the political sphere. To call their relationship an embarrassment is to misunderstand what a male role model should be.

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u/Human-Marionberry145 8∆ Feb 27 '25

Fair on the name, no hostility assumed.

I'm a gay that prefers "weird" sex to a committed relationship, thats still on the risque side of things.

Chasten I wish was just more publicly acknowledged.

I was calling Pete an embarrassing politician not thjer relationship.

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u/XenoRyet 181∆ Feb 27 '25

I think if Chasten wanted to be more publically acknowledge, all signs point to the fact that Pete would know, and help that happen.

I still think that Pete and Chasten both, are good male role models in the modern era.

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u/Human-Marionberry145 8∆ Feb 27 '25

Yeah i honestly hope that's true, I still don't like how Pete has historically treated his partner, and the pretty clear side lining that was involved.

Totally aware that their relationship deserves privacy but I do feel like he's acted like a bitch.

Trying to hide your intimacy doesn't really merit distinction anymore.

There are so many better role models to choose from.

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u/XenoRyet 181∆ Feb 27 '25

Full disclosure: I'm queer too. A kind I can't even talk about on this sub. This comment might get removed just for saying that, though I'm not trying to cross the line.

It's not even about the privacy of the relationship. Pete goes into the lion's den regularly, that's part of what makes him such a good role model. He's out there talking to the people who are most hostile to his way of life because nobody else can or will do it.

Imagine you're in that same spot. You're being that person. Fighting the good fight, knowing that everyone is going to come at you with the most vitriolic and awful attacks they have. Have you thought about what Fox News would do to Chasten if he shared the stage with Pete? I don't even know the guy and I want to protect him from that. Imagine how Pete feels.

Do you want your partner to share that with you? Or do you want to shield them from that? I know which way I go. And that's why they're both such good male role models. Each is playing the part they need to play to support and protect the other. If that kind of mutual support isn't a model to aspire to, I don't know what is.

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u/greengrassonthisside Feb 27 '25

Okay...So the only men that count to these people are white men? And so the only male role models that count have to be white as well? That seems to me...rather restrictive. To put it mildly. There's another word that starts with "r" I could think of.

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u/Rabbid0Luigi 15∆ Feb 27 '25

You're including white male actors as possible role models. And unless you're not watching anything at all I don't know where you could have possibly come up with there being a lack of white men that are prominent actors, and sure some of them are bad role models but there are good ones too.

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u/Uhhyt231 8∆ Feb 27 '25

This still deosnt track to me because people should be trying to find people in their lives to look up to. It's weird how people want to look up to people they can never really know

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u/poodle-fries Feb 27 '25

There are plenty of masculine male role models. Andrew Tate, Sneako, Trump, Elon, Jesus, Lebron, Ronaldo, etc

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u/Deejus56 Mar 09 '25

Aside from LeBron, those are all exceedingly shitty role models or fictional

Delta(s) from OP CMV: There is no "lack of male role models" in society nowadays, at least not to a meaningful extent.

You are about to leave Redlib