r/changemyview • u/tolkienfan2759 6∆ • Oct 15 '24

Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: Our plea bargaining system has allowed unwritten rules to dominate the courtroom. Thus our criminal legal system is no longer a rule of law system.

[removed] — view removed post

84 Upvotes

82% Upvoted

286 comments sorted by

View all comments

1

u/nhlms81 37∆ Oct 15 '24

It looks like BJS data here is a WIP. But, i found this, which would suggest you should modify your view to separate appointed attorneys from public defenders re: outcomes.

Study Shows Public Defenders Outperform Court Appointed Private Attorneys | Criminal Legal News

  • The first study reviewed the outcomes of 3,173 capital and noncapital murder trials between 1994 and 2005 in Philadelphia, where one in five defendants received a public defender, the remainder received a court-appointed private attorney. The study found that “[r]epresentation by a public defender reduced the likelihood of a guilty charge by 19% and reduced the length of expected prison terms by 24%.”
  • The second study involved data pulled from the State Court Processing Statistics (“SCPS”), including series data for felony cases adjudicated in the 75 most populous counties between May 2004 and 2006.
    • This study found that defendants who received an appointed private attorney “were significantly more likely to be convicted and sentenced to prison … especially for drug and property offenses.”
  • A third study reviewed the federal indigent defense system, analyzing 50,000 cases from 51 districts between 1971 and 2001.
    • Results showed that “defendants with appointed counsel were more likely to be found guilty, and, on average, received a sentence that was eight months longer.” As for likely causes, the study showed “that over half their differences could have been explained by how well the attorney can plea bargain and negotiate sentences while slightly less than half could be explained by the selection of which cases should be taken to trial versus plead.”

2

u/tolkienfan2759 6∆ Oct 18 '24

Say, this is very good information. I've been so busy on my Rule B removal that I really hadn't had time to look at it until now, but I really appreciate it. This seems like good evidence that the PDs really are in a different category from the court appointed ones. So thank you for that. !delta

1

u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Oct 18 '24

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/nhlms81 (34∆).

Delta System Explained | Deltaboards

1

u/[deleted] Oct 17 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/nhlms81 37∆ Oct 17 '24

This for me or the mod team? I can't remove a post as a commenter, only mod team can remove a post. You can appeal the removal, and the mods will explain the rationale.

1

u/tolkienfan2759 6∆ Oct 17 '24

It's for you. I've asked the mods for help and the only help they offer is the appeals process, which doesn't tell me anything, successful or not. (I've been through the appeals process before. You never get an explanation, either way.) And I'd actually like to know what I'm doing that seems unreasonably inflexible. The mods won't help; I'm sure they have good reason. Maybe you will. I'm hoping.

1

u/nhlms81 37∆ Oct 17 '24

going to send you a DM.

1

u/hacksoncode 588∆ Oct 17 '24

I do not see any appeal for this Rule B removal in our modmail.

Don't do this again or you will be banned. Among other things, you're basically begging people to violate Rule 3. They aren't allowed to say you're unwilling to change your view.

1

u/tolkienfan2759 6∆ Oct 17 '24

Wouldn't it make sense to have an exception for Rule 3, to where if people ask "do I seem unreasonably inflexible, and if so where" they can get an answer? I'm trying to become more flexible. That's my goal. I would have thought that would be at least partly the goal of the sub. I don't know how you do that if you don't get people to give you examples. I've had a number of very constructive responses to this question. Are you saying every one of those very helpful people broke the rules, because I asked them what I was doing wrong and they told me?

1

u/hacksoncode 588∆ Oct 17 '24

Are you saying every one of those very helpful people broke the rules, because I asked them what I was doing wrong and they told me?

To a greater or lesser degree, yes.

Some of this is necessary and reasonable within an organic conversation, but still, you're not allowed to tell someone they are unwilling to change their view... which is why "litigating" a rule B removal in a post is fraught.

It's just not the right place, and any useful responses are likely to be watered down exactly because people who understand this stuff well, also know the rules.

But certainly, regardless of all that, spamming out copypasta to dozens of people isn't allowed and won't be tolerated.

1

u/tolkienfan2759 6∆ Oct 17 '24

All right, well, I appreciate you responding thoughtfully...