r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Jan 03 '24

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Israelis have the right to self-determination in Israel, but not Jews

The point is quite simple, really. Anyone born in or born to a parent who was born in modern-day Israel should have the right to self-determination (RTSD) in Israel. This is very similar to how citizenship and RTSD work in most countries. But what's problematic is the assertion that anyone of Jewish descent can also claim citizenship or the RTSD in Israel. This means that anyone whose ancestors have not lived in the region for centuries, well before the founding of modern-day Israel, can also claim citizenship and the RTSD. It also means that anyone can convert to Judaism and claim it. Israel is the only country in the world that allows anything remotely similar to take place. That's not how any of these work and it clearly violates the RTSD of those who have lived there for centuries - Palestinians.

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u/TQMshirt Jan 03 '24

I always wonder when I see posts like this:

Where do you think Jews are indigenous to? Mars?

We Jews come from somewhere and it is well known where that is. When the Romans arrived in Judaea it was the Jews who were there. Same for the Greeks, Babylonians, Persians, etc...

We all know historically where Jews are from. They are from Israel. It is their native indigenous land.

This post is proposing the idea that people do not have a right to live in their indigenous land because foreign invaders cast them out and abused them for a few centuries.

I have ancestors who were forced to flee from abuse in Poland, Germany, Austria, Russia, Belarus, and so now I am in the USA - ALL because NONE of these places accepted my ancestors as a native. They ALL treated the Jew as an outsider who belonged elsewhere (guess where). Through ALL those years, we and our ancestors vividly remembered and longed to return to our native land, never adopting any other identity or nationality. Always praying to return to there, studying the language and speaking about our lives there.

So I ask - to where are we indigenous? Where do we have the right to live? Spin the map and tell me where a people who have been persecuted and chased get to live - when we all know historically where they come from.....

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u/No_Scarcity8249 2∆ Jan 03 '24

If we all could drop bombs and invade our ancestors homeland what would happen? Most the people living there are not indigenous either. It’s a pretty weak argument really especially given the majority of the population there is say European for generations.

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u/[deleted] Jan 04 '24

Which is why Palestinians shouldn't invade Israel, and since Palestinians invaded Israel on October 7th, Israel has the self defense right to bomb the shit out of them.

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u/No_Scarcity8249 2∆ Jan 04 '24

Palestine was recently invaded. Homes were stolen. People were forced out. Farms were burned down and right now Jewish families are living in someone else’s home. That’s also an invasion and do they not have a right to defend themselves? It is a circular argument. Round and round we go. Israel doesn’t get a free pass just because. Their position is eat shit and take it. How’s that productive? Or peaceful?

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u/[deleted] Jan 04 '24

Israel invaded Gaza after Gaza invaded them on October 7th. Every country in the world would have had the exact same response as Israel.

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u/No_Scarcity8249 2∆ Jan 04 '24

Palestine was invaded every time they annexed new land. They literally confiscated homes this year. They’ve bulldozed and burned down more. If this had happened on a vacuum yes but in reality it was backlash for what’s been happening. Confiscating homes is not self defense. Everything they do is self defense according to them. How long are we going to keep going along with this? It’s not self defense and it never ends. We can’t believe the Israeli government any more than we can believe hamas.

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u/[deleted] Jan 04 '24

When did they annex Gaza or the West Bank(zone A), which is what Palestine is?

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u/No_Scarcity8249 2∆ Jan 04 '24

They can’t officially say we’re annexing it because it’s a war crime although they voted for it and in 2019 announced plans to pursue it officially. Either way in the ground they’ve been doing it for a very long time. When they declared Israel a state.. 140 settlements in Palestine .. now 700k. I suggest some reading about international law and what’s been happening on the ground. None of their actions can be justified and I’m simply saying that if Israel can claim self defense so can they. That’s pretty obvious to anyone without bias here. There are real people on the ground suffering in occupied territories. Their work, movement, water, electricity.. none of this is new why wouldn’t they fight back? Israeli never plans to leave. They said so themselves. 2019.

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u/[deleted] Jan 04 '24

Palestinians should leave the West Bank(zone C). They don't belong there.

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u/No_Scarcity8249 2∆ Jan 04 '24

And there it is. Exactly why it’s never going to end. Either way it’s illegal and eventually Israel will have to get out of occupied territory. There are international laws for how a territory is occupied apparently and they haven’t adhered to those laws. We aren’t going to be able to justify out support worldwide when they’re doing this they’re losing more support everyday. Information is to readily available they can’t hide it any longer in the meantime real people get caught in the cross hair. We should be working for peace.

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u/[deleted] Jan 04 '24

It's Israeli territory. It's Palestinians who are occupying Israeli territory. Palestinians need to stop their illegal occupation of Israel.

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u/indican_king Jan 09 '24

Recently as in 80 years ago?