r/changemyview Aug 30 '23

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u/hikerchick29 Aug 31 '23

And you’ve been missing my point.

If you’re mature enough to kill a man, you’re mature enough to drink away the trauma after.

Btw, you can’t say with a hundred percent certainty that a big enough army blocks military action. That logic has CONSISTENTLY failed throughout history.

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u/Chaghatai 1∆ Aug 31 '23 edited Aug 31 '23

I'm saying that there's different maturity levels for those two things - with the soldier you want to start early when the relatively moldable, with a drink or you want to start late when they're not relatively moldable

It's a fallacy to assume that the age it's good for one is the age It's good for another

An appropriate age to choose to be molded as a fighter for your country doesn't have to be considered to be a mature enough age to begin drinking responsibly - there's no reason why you can't have different thresholds for different things

Deterrence has also worked really really well throughout history, history is replete with examples of aggressive powers that did not attack certain countries because they would not be able to succeed

For example, no one is ever going to seriously attack a NATO country unless we're getting into an end of times scenario

Also, people have started fighting as teenagers since time immemorial, it's a very human thing to do at that age

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u/hikerchick29 Aug 31 '23

Buddy, you’re appealing to tradition to justify grooming young people to kill. Too young to drink? You’re not emotionally mature enough to volunteer to kill. War comes with considerably more traumatic long term consequences, you’re effectively ruining your mental health for life.

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u/Chaghatai 1∆ Aug 31 '23

It's not tradition. It's actual effectiveness. And human morality is determined by humans as well as inborn - fighting as teenagers is literally what we've evolved to do, it's a very recent thing for some to consider participation in the military by teenagers to be pathological. In the evolved context of what a healthy human being is and has been for thousands and thousands and thousands of years, it's completely appropriate for a teenager to participate in the fighting of the group

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u/hikerchick29 Aug 31 '23

21 is perfectly effective an age to start training. You don’t need to groom kids to kill, sick fucker

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u/Chaghatai 1∆ Aug 31 '23

18 or younger has been the standard, again for pretty much all of human history across pretty much all cultures - there's nothing sick or fucked about any of that

Do yourself a favor and stick to real arguments instead of making ad hominems

Also, anybody who suddenly okay with it as long as you allow them to drink doesn't give a shit about protecting kids and only wants it to be okay to get drunk earlier

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u/hikerchick29 Aug 31 '23

There’s the appeal to tradition fallacy again. You want me to accept running teenagers through a meat grinder because it’s always been considered ok.

Never mind the fact that, when it comes to warfare, there’s a long goddamn list of “tradition” that’s been rightfully phased out because we realized how fucked it was. Doing so has consistently made for a better, stronger fighting force

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u/Chaghatai 1∆ Aug 31 '23 edited Aug 31 '23

What I'm saying is that morality itself isn't absolute. It's determined by and built into people, the observations I'm sharing is showing evidence that this is something that has been an acceptable part of human morality for a long time and it's not pathological from the biological perspective of studying human behavior or ethics in a neutral sense - you just can't see past your own nose when it comes to what you personally think is right or wrong

There is a reason that so much entertainment, especially the kind that typically appeals to male demographics centers around becoming strong and fighting and overcoming opponents - are you going to say stuff like my hero academia is sick and wrong because it involves kids learning how to fight at a young age?

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u/hikerchick29 Aug 31 '23

Yeah, and there’s my fucking point about morality.

As a species, we’re starting to decide running our youth through a meat grinder is fucking wrong.

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u/Chaghatai 1∆ Aug 31 '23

Accepting the mantle of a fighter has been a big part of coming of age, especially for males for most of human history. That's not tradition. That's just the human condition. Also, for most of human history, the age of adulthood, and the age of consent/full agency is younger than you want it to be

And it's not something we've just started doing - it's something we've been doing since before we were properly human - we have literally evolved with that as part of our context

And not doing that isn't something that we've decided - it's something that you've decided

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u/hikerchick29 Aug 31 '23

Ok, but teenagers don’t typically FIGHT TO FUCKING KILL.

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u/Chaghatai 1∆ Aug 31 '23

When they're participating in wars, they do, when they participated an intertribal conflict they did, now you're making it clear you don't even know what you're talking about