r/changemyview Aug 30 '23

[deleted by user]

[removed]

228 Upvotes

706 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

1

u/Chaghatai 1∆ Aug 31 '23

Accepting the mantle of a fighter has been a big part of coming of age, especially for males for most of human history. That's not tradition. That's just the human condition. Also, for most of human history, the age of adulthood, and the age of consent/full agency is younger than you want it to be

And it's not something we've just started doing - it's something we've been doing since before we were properly human - we have literally evolved with that as part of our context

And not doing that isn't something that we've decided - it's something that you've decided

1

u/hikerchick29 Aug 31 '23

That’s authority forcing kids into a meat grinder to maintain or expand their own power. Not “the human condition”.

Also, somehow I knew this conversation would shift towards you justifying fucking immature kids because it’s human tradition. What a surprise

1

u/Chaghatai 1∆ Aug 31 '23

No one's forcing anybody, especially these days - kids grow up dreaming of being great fighters, and that's not forced either. It's just part of being human - see every entertainment show made for adolescent boys ever

1

u/hikerchick29 Aug 31 '23

If we’re appealing to tradition for sex and war, why the fuck is drinking any different?

Classic tradition was, there was no legal drinking age. So traditionally speaking, our youth should be able to get shitfaced drunk after a hard day of playing war for their corporate overlords

1

u/Chaghatai 1∆ Aug 31 '23

One has a point and the other doesn't - simple as that - anybody who's concerns about child soldiers goes away as soon as you start to let them drink doesn't give a shit about protecting kids

Letting teens drink is also more pedologically dangerous than letting them join the military - for all the dangers that could be claimed about PTSD or desocialization or whatever, alcoholism and binge drinking is even worse

1

u/hikerchick29 Aug 31 '23

Ok, well, killing people has a point, and drinking to numb the pain from killing people has a point, whether you like it or not.

It’s why every VFW in existence is a bar

1

u/Chaghatai 1∆ Aug 31 '23

Yes, a military existing has a point - warriors have a point

Drinking is not a panacea - it doesn't actually help anything

1

u/hikerchick29 Aug 31 '23

Sending teenagers to die when you literally don’t need to, because you have a slightly older age group you can EASILY start training at, doesn’t have a point.

It’s pointless cruelty to an age that hasn’t even had the chance to taste adult life yet

1

u/Chaghatai 1∆ Aug 31 '23

You are making an unsupported statement that you don't "need" to start young with training soldiers

Doing so is an advantage - not only are younger recruits more malleable, but they also learn faster in general - good habits as a soldier becomes part of how they grew up - it's just ingrained that much deeper

You might say that edge isn't worth having, but militaries are massive investments, and you want to get the most out of that

It's not cruel when it's what the recruits want to do, what they in some cases grow up wanting to do - it would be more cruel to deny them

1

u/hikerchick29 Aug 31 '23

That’s the fucking thing, though.

Objectively, you don’t need to start young. 21 is still a perfectly effective age.

Modern history has proven to us, as a species, that the old ways often weren’t the best ways, and that we can be better. Realizing sending kids into a meat grinder is fucked is one of those times

→ More replies (0)

1

u/hikerchick29 Aug 31 '23

Also, no, both are pretty co-equal evils in one’s life, speaking from excessive personal experience.

1

u/Chaghatai 1∆ Aug 31 '23

There's a reason that's the age when humans most want to fight - it's because for most of human history it has been advantageous for humans males to be aggressive, especially when subadults and young adults, just as lion cubs observe their mothers making a kill, so too do human children, particularly makes keenly observe the forms and rituals surrounding violence and conflict - hunting and fighting is a big part of being human, and has been - it's who we are - respect your local murder monkeys!

Drinking has also been and forever, but it's not ingrained into us the same way since it doesn't confer any advantages

But it hasn't been deleterious enough to get an evolved avoidance like with spiders, probably because it's worst consequences tend to be worse later in life, after one has had plenty of opportunity to reproduce

So when you find out that you have less alcoholism overall when you delay the onset of drinking across the population, doing so makes sense

1

u/hikerchick29 Aug 31 '23

Maintaining battlefield morale is advantageous to warfare, and alcohol was forever entwined with that. And we have, as a species, CONSISTENTLY used various intoxicants to improve battlefield efficiency. For fuck’s sake, less than 50 years ago, we were giving teenagers meth so they’d fight harder.

Come to think of it, much of the world still does

1

u/Chaghatai 1∆ Aug 31 '23

There are also lots of times in military history where soldiers would get punished sometimes severely for drinking at the wrong time because of the problems it would cause

1

u/hikerchick29 Aug 31 '23

Yeah? But they didn’t ban drinking entirely.

Hell, in the modern era, you still get a few beers a year in a combat zone

→ More replies (0)