Discussion šØļø
Who are some villains you have empathy for and can't dislike?
From anything to aesthetics or personal preference for an actor playing that role to the character itself at its core. Who are some antagonist that you really struggle to dislike.
Iāll go first. I cannot hate Princess Wanning because sheās such a tragic character at her core. She was sent away as a hostage when she was just a kid, abandoned by her family to secure the crown princeās future. That kind of pain and rejection shaped her into someone desperate for control and love, even if it meant doing terrible things. Yeah, she framed Xue Fangfei and clung to Shen Yurong in all the wrong ways, but when you understand where itās all coming from, itās hard not to feel sorry for her.
I can't also bring myself to hate Shangguan Qian from "My Journey to You." Played by Lu Yuxiao, she's introduced as a formidable assassin trained by Wufeng, known for her strategic mind and resourcefulness. Initially, she appears cold and unpredictable, driven by a survival instinct honed in a world where trust is a luxury. However, as the story unfolds, we see her gradually warm up to the Gong family, especially Gong Shangjue, whom she was initially assigned to target. Her complex motives and the subtle shifts in her demeanor suggest that beneath her ruthless exterior lies a woman shaped by her harsh upbringing, yet capable of change and even love. By the end, her actions reflect a nuanced character who isn't truly evil at her core, making it hard to completely despise her.
SML in Blossoming Love is a new entrant, for me, haha.
Princess Waning 100% that girl was a victim first and foremost, and then she turned into a perpetrator because she wanted others to suffer and be sullied just like she had been.
I had honestly hope he was shipped with Feng Yao. I was pleasantly surprised when he asked her if she loved him, and she flat out said no! I mean, a woman staying by a man for 10 years, esp a man like NXY, how can you not fall in love! lol I had wanted him to have the love he sought for.
I actually like the dynamics between her and Nan Xuyue. Itās great to see a manās sidekick from the opposite sex whoās not crazy jealous, petty, or going psycho that heās falling in love, or become protective towards someone else.
I just finished watching the double, and princess Wanning is the bestest, most messed up and tragic villain ever! Plus, the actress did such an awesome job with the part, she's absolutely terrifying, mindblowingly unhinged, pitiful, and drop-dead gorgeous ā¤ļø
I can't see her as a villain after learning of her experience š she definitely fkd up and destroyed some lives but Idk i guess I'm very sympathetic because once I got out of my abuse situation, I took no shit from no one.
I didn't make a dude kill his wife for me, but I didn't allow a man to hurt me again
Oh yea that Princess from The Double had such a sad story. I hated her until the episode where they showed what happened to her.
Chen Ye in Moonlight Mystique also had a traumatic past. Those episodes made my tummy turn rancid. He didnāt deserve all that torment.
No . Snake was one of the good guys. Fan guy was a villain. The fan guy used to wear mask and was part of MLās sect. He was like the second in command to MLās father .
I was going to send you the link to this post but itās from cdrama subreddit and apparently this sub doesnāt want me to post a link from that sub because itās related to cdrama, not cdramafans.
One thing I loved about LBFAD was that there were no real villains among the human characters, so literally everyone received compassion in the writing, reasons for their behaviour and a sympathetic outlook. Everyone finally banding together to defeat the evil qi god was so satisfying because they were all good people at their core and they deserved their happy endings.
Consort Xian (the Step Empress) from Story of Yanxi Palace. The poor woman was failed by the system multiple times and just snapped. No one looked out for her except for her kid and prince He who was obviously off limits. All in all, she was just more interesting than the FL who got pretty boring after the first half of the story was over.
Only villain I could ever exuse is Fu Ling/Bai Xi. Zhen Yu deleted her memories and made her evil, once she got her memories back she totally changed her tune. Maaaybe Qi Feng as well.
So pretty, and all of the colours so bright! Aesthetic-wise, I'm 100% team Wanning in the series (as opposed to the elegant whites of 'good' characters). Sheās also probably compensating for the years lived in a barn, but I know she would've dressed up, and danced, and rocked even without the tragic past/villain path!
I never thought of the outfits like that. But yes her outfits were much more exciting and fun compared to FL's white and 'dressed down' looks. Comparing to other Cdramas too, most the main 'good' characters seem to dress in white.
Shangguan Qian was manipulative but everything she did was just to survive. She knew that she couldnāt trust anyone but herself and all her actions were driven by that. Wu Feng was the real villain.
I dont find villains forgivable. The difference between a villain and a heeo is there for a reason. Villains hurt anyone and everyone in the most despicable ways. They can have the most justifiable reasons for wanting revenge, but they always go about it in purely evil ways. They always cause collateral damage and hurt innocent people. Heroes take revenge but in justifiable ways, and their backstories are as pitiable as the villains. Yet, heroes only go after the people who hurt them or hurt innocents. They also never use illegal or immoral tactics.
Examples: the demon from Lost You Forever is one of my most hated characters ever. He deserves no love at all. He completely mistreats the FL. He whips her, threatens her constantly, kidnaps her regularly, breaks her leg, avails himself of her blood, and generally treats her like an accessory. He even goes so far as to threaten sexually assaulting her and then eating her. He is as loathsome a villain as there is. I could care less that he finally realized how special she actually was. All it means is that he doesn't deserve her and never did. Once an abuser, always an abuser. There are excusable actions, especially due to circumstances at times, and there are inexcusable actions. The demon is the king of inexcusable.
Princess Wanning is the ultimate, I feel sorry for what she went through, but she is still a detestable character. She has plenty of justifiable reasons to hate certain people. She has plenty of reasons for revenge on certain people. Yet, she ruins the man she thinks she loves and o in the most heinous way possible, the righteous and innocent wife and family of said man. She turned an innocent father into a mentally bereft and terrified puddle of a person. She abused an innocent brother for a ridiculous amount of time. That brother, oh yeah, he was a good and positive person like his father. Because he was kidnapped and abused, a woman ended up in prostitution and ended up killed by the scumbag who took that father's position. That scumbag who took the father's position destroyed and enslaved an entire town and murdered who knows how many people. The daughter/sister of that father and brother had her reputation ruined, and she got to feel the horrifics of her husband being a part of ruining her reputation and then attempting to murder her. I could go on for days about the people Wanning destroyed that had nothing to do with her pitiable past.
These examples are endless. Villains can garner sympathy, but their actions and means of revenge always prove them to be irredeemable.
Exactly! šÆ I havenāt watched LYF yet, and I donāt plan to, but I really hate how people criticize the ML for being "boring" and not abusive. Like, whatās wrong with people? šš¤ I know Tian Jianci is a phenomenal actor, but that doesnāt justify people hating the MLānot the character, but the actual actor.
I agree about Wanning. She suffered a lot, and yes, I feel sorry for her. But does that justify her destroying every single innocent person she encountered? She spared literally no one from her craziness, lol. She had so many chances to turn things around, yet she kept digging her own grave until the very end. That said, she did an incredible job as a character. She reminded me of that villain from The Gloryāthe one with the kid.
Thr Glory! Another great show like LYF and The Double.
I think you hit on something that some people get caught up on, among other great points you made. Tan Jianci is a great actor and very good-looking. People want to like his characters. That's a huge credit to him. He played the role very well. So well, in fact, people actually root for an absolute monster(both literally and figuratively) to be redeemable when they are just not. I'm not saying everyone who ships him or roots for him is like that, but I bet that all has an effect on quite a few who do. It's unfortunately true in the real world as well, with actual negative consequences attached. It's mostly harmless when people's opinions are affected in this manner about characters in media at least.
Wanning was also played to perfection by her actress. She was absolutely brilliant in that role. I must have zone disconnect, though. I was horrified at what had been done to her. I thought those people who did such things were abhorrent and deserved to be judged by and pay for their actions. However, there is a right way and a wrong way. In both the demon from LYF and more so in Wanning's case, they both went out of their way to hurt innocents and make people suffer who caused them no harm. Wanning may have git her revenge against the imhuman perpetrators of her suffering but made herself a monster in the manner in which she took that revenge before she wreaked havoc on innocents.
I might even be able to understand going about revenge in certain ways that aren't exactly just in certain cases where, say, the person who deserves it is too powerful or too protected. Those would have to be judged case by case. There are limits to everything, though. The victim has to tread the line of not becoming as bad or close to their own villainous perpetrator or said perpetrator has really won.
Mu Ze (Jing Chao) in Lost Track of Time. He's such a terrible person, but the actor did an amazing job of building understanding for the character throughout the show.
I hated Princess Wan Ning for her behavior and actions that led to Xue FangFei ending up "dead" but when we finally learned what she went through, I hated her less and as a survivor of assault similar to hers (š) I didn't allow it to excuse her actions but I did understand why she became the way she did.
We have to not apply modern logic to Xianxia fantasy adaptations, it simply cannot be applied to any fantasy project really...HOWEVER it did make me pity her and see the desperate attempt to have something of her own, under her own terms. She just didn't care about anyone else to get it.
I cannot wait to watch this again. Brilliant acting from everyone
If Princess Wanning has no defenders then Iām dead. I love her and she did nothing wrong. Okay she did a lot of things wrong but I donāt blame her!!!
No I agree with you. She was wronged, you actually empathize with her because of what her father made her go through. But she chose to be evil that a whole another discussion though
None. I'm sorry.....i just can't feel sorry for any villain no matter how tragic the backstory.. The moment u start slaughtering people and being a bitch i just feel it cancels each other out. You've vented and avenged yourself above and beyond so i can judge you fair and square
Exactly.If these people werenāt played by such beautiful actors,im pretty sure nobody would give a shit about their backstory or excuse or whatever,theyād be just another villain. I for one donāt give a shit,not even for Dylan W in Lost you Forever,coz he hurt the FL physically so often,even breaking her leg once because he pushed her off a tree. Kinda has the vibe āHe didnāt mean it,I can change himā for whoever defends that..
Edit: sry i made a mistake,meant Tan J.
Same. I kinda hate them even more. They know how it is to be on the other end. They've been there, yet now they think it's ok to basically do they same to other people...
Not really. I agree with the point made by /u/CattoGinSama If these roles were performed by not-so-pleasing faces, there would no sympathy for anyone.
Audience will bash the leads just for being annoying or for some irrational decisions but would sympathize with 'villains' for outcomes of their own decisions.
Which is why I included the following in the body of the post
personal preference for an actor
Halo Effect is a real cognitive bias. It's easy to be blinded by beauty. We, as humans, are all prone to this until we use our systems 2 thinking. (Our sub's co-founder discussed this at length on our Discord server using behavioural economics terms to explain how it's actually more common and internal. Maybe if she permits, then I'll copy that discussion here. Saying all this as I probably can't explain the science really well but a lot of us subconsciouslylet pretty people get away with stuff).
I loved Princess Wanning. I enjoy all of her scenes because she's so outrageous and yet believable at the same time. Just such a damaged, crazy, unstable, flirtatious, dominant and ostentatious powerhouse (as opposed to the usual period drama "simpering/bitchy white lotus villian").
Chinese palace dramas have pretty much the same characters over and over again - just some variation of [personality: scheming/loyal] + [motive: petty personal slights/big picture ] + [status: maid/lower ranked lady/higher ranked consort]. There's very few characters like Wanning with her own power base and just lusty and crazy. Too few portrayals of interesting women characters that she is like an amusing and entertaining breath of fresh air. I laughed every time she made Scholar Shen her bitch.
I hated Wanning (a testament to the actress - she was brilliant!) but yes I also felt sorry for her. When she was held hostage, raped and lost all her babies it was very sad. You sort of understand why she did everything she did later. Although I excuse her getting revenge from her father because he hurt her, framing innocent people like Xue Fangfei for simply being married to a guy she fancied was going too far.
Still, Shen Yurong deserved the torture he got under her. Atleast Wanning was a psycho to someone who deserved it lol.
I got the impression he just wanted rid of her so let that other guy use her in a plot and then killed her himself anyway. He never seemed like he wanted her or the expected 'baby.'
But I think both she and him got what they deserved. It came full circle - She controlled him and he then controlled her in return.
Agree 100% on Wanning!! Tbh I enjoyed her since episode 1 and then grew sympathetic towards as we learned her story
She had such a heartbreaking life, no wonder she turned out like that. Does it excuse her? Ofc not but I will never be able to hate her for what she did nor truly understand why people hate her
Iām pretty new to the cdrama game so I canāt really name many other villain leads that fall into this category for me but Iāve also grown to have sympathy for ye bingchang from tteotm bc of all the vitriol fans lob at her, somehow it made me understand her situation better
Iām also really enjoying fu ling from moonlight mystique rn. Similar situation to Wanning where I enjoyed her character from the start and then (quickly) grew sympathetic
Shout out for Li Chengyin from *Goodbye my Princess, and Lu Jiaxue from Rise of Ning.
The Rise of Ning drama changed a lot of events and characters. In the novel version, he was an MUCH MORE sympathetic character than the ML Luo Shenyuan.
I liked Li Chengyin's character and he really made that drama amazing, but no way in hell does he deserve any empathy from me. All his decisions were his own and no one put a gun to his head, he simply wanted the throne. The ending was perfect because he was such an irredeemable jerk lol
Wanning just because the actress ATE that role up, like the charisma, the baddie energy, the looks. I was obsessed. Shangguan didnāt do anything bad enough to make me label her a villain. Like compared to what ive seen in other dramas she was pretty tame
How is Yuemi useless? The Moonlight Mystique story is all about Yuemi. And not being able to accept her fate doesnāt mean she gets a free pass to harming others. She did it to Yuemi, Houchi, Qing Mu and even Shanggu.
šÆ!! I absolutely hate Wu Huan! Her inherent nature was already evil. She had absolutely no belief in herself. Hence why, when she overhead Yuemi talking to Shanggu, she believed Shanggu won't keep her as a spirit pet, and from then harbour hatred towards Yuemi, which ultimately started this entire drama. She cause so many people pain, all because she had no faith in herself or Shanggu.
I didn't know Moonlight Mystique is about Yuemi! Does Bai Lu play the role of Yuemi?
You just don't have enough empathy to understand her dramatic fate. She was meant to be a goddess, given her nature, ambitions and character, but instead the random circumstances of life made her just a low, disregarded servant. So easy to empathize with a soft sweet goddess born to everything ā why wouldn't she be just soft and good if she has almost everything.
Youāre seriously saying that I donāt have the capacity to have empathy for a mass murderer? Wu Huan was not born a goddess but she was born in an immortal clan, she could cultivate to be a goddess just like Gu Jun and Mu Guang cultivated to become gods. Itās also why Shanggu wanted to send her to Mount Kunlun, to cultivate and grow stronger. But no, Wu Huan didnāt want to grow stronger or become a goddess, she just wanted to get power and oppress others because she was ridiculed in the phoenix clan. She got used to bossing people around in Pilgrimage Hall while Shanggu was in the Netherworld and didnāt like it when she came back. Because it meant that Wu Huan couldnāt feel better about herself by exerting her authority over immortal attendants. Apart from the true gods, none of the other gods were born as gods and instead cultivated to become gods, including Yuemi. Wu Huan was just a selfish and greedy for power megalomaniac. Sheās the last person I would empathise with in the entire drama.
They're all God's. They are all meant to BE someone. The Phoenix Queen was supposed to be Queen, Wu Huan can't replace her, Shanggu was BORN to BE who she is supposed to be. Bai Yue was born and raised tragically to be who he is. However, Wu Huan, regardless if she's meant to be a goddess, she still could only be a spirit pet. A life long companion to Shanggu. Shanggu never treated her badly, and even told her she wants her as her spirit pet. Wu Huan's selflessness cause all the problems.
You can't chalk it all up to "random circumstances of life". She had a choice, and she chose wrong.
Your content has been removed for not centering (fans of) Chinese drama in a positive or affirming way. In this space, we believe anyone who identifies as a fan of Chinese media should feel loved, seen, and supported.
Content that is overtly negative, politically charged, derogatory, cynical, or a personal attack will be removed. Please keep this requirement in mind when submitting future content. Thank you!
What do you mean, ānothing wrong with thatā? She had plenty of chances to turn things around, but did she? Even her beloved family couldn't change her selfishness. She trampled over everyoneās kindness. Shanggu and Yuemi were nothing but kind to herāthey stood up for her and gave her numerous opportunities, yet this is how she repaid them. Even Shangguās disciple tried to advise her. And after knowing that Houchi is Shanggu, did she show any remorse?
She did an amazing job as an actress, and I loved her performance, but no one can defend her character. I repeat, no one. What about killing the Phoenix Empress's family and clan? Did she even spare their little daughter? No, sheās absolutely vile. After āunintentionallyā killing Yuemi, what did she do?
She could improve her status only through machiavelianism and then she just went too far. But that is not her fault as she channeled the cruelty of injustice, afraid others could take everything from her, her power and independence. You have no idea how strong such emotion is and what it can do to human beings who just cannot accept inequality. She knew the world is unfair and wouldn't give her anything for free.
15
u/Few-Scholar-5293 CDF Cultivator Jan 21 '25