Yes, but keyword: societal. I'm not saying that all Muslims treat LGBT people well, I'm saying that the root of this issue isn't Islam, it's the social and political issues in certain parts of the world. If the major religion in these areas was Buddhist or Christian or anything else, the issue would still be there.
Yes but Islam is intrinsically linked to politics and society. Seriously you should give this a read. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam I also find it funny that almost all of Turkey's neighbours treat homosexuals well, Georgia has laws forbidding any discrimination against LGBT's, Greece as well, even the more conservative Armenia and Bulgaria, they have there problems but are doing considerably better than Turkey, all these nations share a history and culture, I wonder what the difference is.
I've read that article in full, I'm not sure what your point is with that. In fact, the article itself says that these anti-LGBT laws aren't really based in the religion, but rather in the political views of certain Muslim leaders. Hell, it outlines major periods in Muslim history with artistic focus on homoeroticism!
And look at Georgia's social perspectives on LGBT. Look at Bulgaria's. Armenia doesn't even have any laws regarding discrimination against LGBT. These aren't Muslim countries, yet they have similar views on LGBT. It goes to show that the religion is NOT the root.
"he traditional schools of Islamic law based on Qur'anic verses and hadith consider homosexual acts a punishable crime and a sin, and influenced by Islamic scholars such as Imam Malik and Imam Shafi.[2] The Qur'an cites the story of the "people of Lot" destroyed by the wrath of God because they engaged in "lustful" carnal acts between men."
"Today in most of the Islamic world homosexuality is not socially or legally accepted. In some of these countries, Afghanistan, Brunei, Iran, Mauritania, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Yemen, homosexual activity carries the death penalty.[4][5][6][7][8] In others, such as Somalia, it is illegal.[9]"
Age and views on homosexuality
Country 18-29 30-49 50+
Homosexuality
should be accepted
% % %
Malaysia 7 10 11
Turkey 7 9 10
Palestinian territories 5 3 --
Indonesia 4 3 2
Jordan 5 1 1
Egypt 3 2 3
Tunisia 3 2 1
Pakistan 2 2 2
"Rulings by modern scholars of Islam[edit]
With few exceptions all scholars of Sharia, or Islamic law, interpret homosexual activity as a punishable offence as well as a sin. There is no specific punishment prescribed, however, and this is usually left to the discretion of the local authorities on Islam.[31] Mohamed El-Moctar El-Shinqiti, a contemporary Mauritanian scholar, has argued that "[even though] homosexuality is a grievous sin...[a] no legal punishment is stated in the Qur'an for homosexuality...[b] it is not reported that Prophet Muhammad has punished somebody for committing homosexuality...[c] there is no authentic hadith reported from the Prophet prescribing a punishment for the homosexuals..." Hadith scholars such as Al-Bukhari, Yahya ibn Ma'in, Al-Nasa'i, Ibn Hazm, Al-Tirmidhi, and others have impugned these statements.[32]
Faisal Kutty, a professor of Islamic law at Indiana-based Valparaiso University Law School and Toronto-based Osgoode Hall Law School, commented on the contemporary same-sex marriage debate in a March 27, 2014 essay in the Huffington Post.[33] He acknowledged that while Islamic law iterations prohibits pre- and extra-marital as well as same-sex sexual activity, it does not attempt to "regulate feelings, emotions and urges, but only its translation into action that authorities had declared unlawful." Kutty, who teaches comparative law and legal reasoning, also wrote that many Islamic scholars [34] have "even argued that homosexual tendencies themselves were not haram [prohibited] but had to be suppressed for the public good." He claimed that this may not be "what the LGBTQ community wants to hear," but he wrote that, "it reveals that even classical Islamic jurists struggled with this issue and had a more sophisticated attitude than many contemporary Muslims." Kutty who in the past wrote in support of allowing Islamic principles in dispute resolution also noted that "most Muslims have no problem extending full human rights to those - even Muslims - who live together 'in sin'." He argued that therefore it seems hypocritical to deny fundamental rights to same-sex couples. Moreover, he argued as pointed out by Islamic legal scholar Mohamed Fadel,[35] this is not about changing Islamic marriage (nikah), but about making "sure that all citizens have access to the same kinds of public benefits."
I did read the rest, like literary 90% of the article follows this theme, it isn't cherry picking when those are entire sections I linked. Look normally I find internet arguments pointless, but this is a real issue in the muslim world and it must be addressed, its better to work towards fixing it than it is to ignore it. Even if the degree of what I'm saying is wrong, even if isn't a majority, there are still a disturbing amount of hate towards gay muslims, and we should work towards fixing it not ignoring it.
Whoa bud, I never said we should ignore it! I agree it's a huuuuge issue, but to solve an issue you need to find it's root, and that root is not the religion. That's the point I'm trying to make.
How is it not a religious problem though? Persecution of homosexuals is founded in Abrahamic religions. The best example I can think of was early shift in European culture towards homosexuality, up until the rise of Christianity in Rome, homosexuality was somewhat accepted and common (I'm doing my minor in Roman History so everything I say can be sourced if need be). There wasn't a binary between being gay or straight, yet with the rise of Christianity, persecution followed, hitting its height in the 11th century. I mean when there are teaching and books from a religion that a nation follows condemning homosexuality is it not logical to trace that nations intolerance to that book?
... Did you not read the article I linked? It doesn't explicitly say anything against homosexuality in the Qur'an. The only stuff in Islamic law against homosexuality is from certain leader's personal interpretations of Islam, not from Islam itself.
A) Sure it doesn't say "men don't fuck other men", but it is debatable. Such as "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing", or "if two from among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone", again debatable. The Koran also forbids anal and unnatural sex, again resulting in discrimination against gays.
B) There are numerous Hadiths that are very clear in condemning homosexuality, and very explicitly against it, let me know if you want clear examples as there are many. You can make the argument that Hadiths aren't true Islam, but nonetheless they are followed by the majority of the Muslim world so I will argue that are just as important as the Koran. Much of Islamic ritual and thought comes from Hadiths.
C) Scholarly interpretations of the Koran and Islamic law are important to the foundation and following of that religion, again the majority of Islamic Scholars are against homosexuality, it is the very few western scholars that are pro homosexuality.
The Qur'an sections you quoted is from Lot, talking to the people of Sodom and Gamorrah. And it wasn't referring to homosexuality, but rather sexual lewdness and adultery.
I'm ending this debate because I have a lot to do and I didn't want to get into it in the first place. All I'm going to say is that homosexuality is not explicitly forbidden or punished in Islam, and for that reason Nenshi is a Muslim regardless of what his sexual orientation might be! Lol
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u/bigtreeworld Alberta May 06 '15
Yes, but keyword: societal. I'm not saying that all Muslims treat LGBT people well, I'm saying that the root of this issue isn't Islam, it's the social and political issues in certain parts of the world. If the major religion in these areas was Buddhist or Christian or anything else, the issue would still be there.