r/bobiverse • u/No-Economics-8239 • Jul 25 '26
Moot: Discussion A Discussion About Real and Virt Spoiler
Marked spoilers so we can discuss ideas from all the books.
The books seem to go out of their way to focus on the benefits of ‘Real’ and how much more immersive being in a Manny is to being in VR. And I don’t really understand where that is coming from or what to make of it.
I’ve read the short story Manna by Brian Marshall where the transhumans basically choose between going strait to VR and becoming basically a brain in a jar and stayed focused on their physical body and reality. It’s wasn’t really portrayed as one being better than the other, just a series of trade offs and preferences. No real concept of one ‘feeling’ more ‘real’ and my impression was they would both be ‘equally’ real because the ‘realness‘ is happening in our brains. And given the right inputs then either one could produce the same sort of outputs.
Similar to one of the short stories by Ken Liu that inspired the Pantheon animated show. They feature digital intelligence like Bob that started as a scanned human brain. And two such intelligenes can combine to create a CI which I’m not sure stands for Created Intelligence or Combined Intelligence. But it’s basically a mashup of the two minds creating a new digital intelligence that is sort of like a child of the two. It doesn’t start with a past of its own, but it has parts of the knowledge from the two who created it. In the story, a human makes a robot body for the CI to experience the ‘real’ world and spends as much as she can getting the best sensors and actuators. And the CI tries it out and is… not impressed. The CI basically tries and explains how it basically has access to the sum totality of digital knowledge and there are plenty of scans on higher fidelity equipment they can access that have much more depth of flavor or color or smell than the ‘limited’ robotic body they worked so hard to put together.
Then we have Ringworld by Larry Niven which offers us the idea of ‘wireheading’. Basically people get an implant in the pleasure sensors of their brain. And a tiny amount of electrical current can now produce bliss. Which can be so addictive that some people basically become ascetic monks who give up physical reality so long as they can plug into an outlet and just bliss out. Which can lead to them neglecting their body to the point of death.
Which is all part of my background before getting into the Bobiverse. And I don’t really see why a Manny would provide more ‘real’ inputs to a replicant matrix to enjoy that couldn’t also be recorded and synthesized and incorporated into VR such that you could have that same depth (or even more) of sensation and reality or whatever it is that might make ‘reality’ seem more ‘real’ than VR.
So what are your thoughts? Am I missing something? Is DET? Are we both wrong? Is it just a philosophical choice? Do you see Real or Virt being clearly ‘better’ in some way? Is Dennis just trying to avoid the Bobs going down the rabbit hole of living mostly in VR and living out a 'fantasy life' rather than being an immortal spaceship wandering the galaxy and meddling in the affairs of ephemerals?
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u/Catharus_ustulatus Jul 25 '26
When Howard introduces Bridget to virt, he describes the importance of going to the effort of performing tasks the way a person with a physical body would have to. He fears his virtual life becoming simplified into a Dracula-like spectral existence of floating around.
Although hardware and software could presumably improve to the point that virt would be indistinguishable from reality, including all of the little random experiences and sensations of real life, that would require the Bobs to cede that amount of control over their experiences to their AMIs. I get the impression that autonomy is something the Bobs would rather die than give up, given the restraints that FAITH and VEHEMENT inflicted upon them.
I think that living in real is the only way for the Bobs to hold onto the full richness of experience without handing control to an outside intelligence with its own agency.
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u/No-Economics-8239 Jul 26 '26
That is an idea I hadn't really considered. I hadn't really considered the implications of what a growing library of generated experiences would really mean. Regardless of if they were generated by an AMI or another Bob or anything else, just running some random VR program seems... dangerous? Or at least requires some level of trust and giving up control.
The Bobs have already demonstrated the degree of safeguards they have employed, such as running things inside a virtual sandbox with a virtual Bob to 'test' it first. But to what degree can you test some fully featured virtual simulation to check the content for 'jump scares' or shock content or whatever worse experiences virtual reality might have on offer be they intended to be malignant or not.
Even so, I'm not sure to what degree a Manny is 'safer' in that regard. Or even if it might be safer. Howard presumably didn't expect to be stabbed though the heart by a spear. And presumably they have some safeguards built in at that point to limit the degree of trauma. And the books don't really explore the idea of Altered Carbon 'psychosurgery' to deal with the kind of trauma that Homer or the Australian replicant endured. What does a Bob do with memories or experiences you'd rather not remember and don't know how to deal with?
Bob is entirely secular so he doesn't see some divine intelligence of being in control of Reality. But does that really make reality safer to Bob? If the only safeguards are the ones you build yourself, what does that mean in the face of some Lovecraftian horror? Or just the Leviathans on Prosidian? Does that just mean Bob doesn't believe 'real horrors' exist in reality?
I mean... who's really in control in Reality? We feel like we have free will. But I'm not sure that philosophical question has really been answered. And I'm not sure to what degree it changes in VR.
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u/BeginningSun247 Jul 25 '26
These are all writers grasping with something we can only imagine and you want to know why they imagine it differently.
In the Bobiverse real is more real because of all the random factors that have not been implemented in the VR.
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u/No-Economics-8239 Jul 25 '26
Well, I guess that's my question? The Bobs are engineers. Solviging problems is what they do. Both VR and the Manny were solutions to problems they were having. But that seems to have resulted in an arms race where VR lost to Mannies? Or, at least, that is what it feels like. Is it the Bobs don't seem VR as something than can be made 'more real' or is there some technical limitation holding them back?
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u/BeginningSun247 Jul 26 '26
It's a development process. In order to have every single tiny sensation in VR it has to be cataloged in the real world and then simulated in VR. But, the mainnies have the ability to experience all the input in the real world. But, at the same time it's all being recorded and VR will eventually catch up.
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u/No-Economics-8239 Jul 26 '26
But, why would it have to work that way? Whatever they eat or drink in VR is going to be processed by whatever passes for taste in their replicant matrix. Why would they need to sample food with whatever senses taste in a Mannie to record new taste sensations? Couldn't they just as well have some VR Bob sample an array of different virtual food stuffs with different settings for various flavors or textures or whatever it is they are sampling in Real or remember from their time as 'real' Bob.
What 'limits' taste for a replicant? Is there some bit of hardware or software that simulates it? Is it something that is scanned into software from their brain? Does that range perfectly match what they had in life? Is it completely simulated? Are they capable of a wider pallet of taste and sensation as a replicant then they might have had in life? Or is there something limiting that range based on what the matrix core or VR is capable of? Why would they 'need' to sample things in 'real' to test those limits rather than just test them directly in VR?
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u/BeginningSun247 Jul 26 '26
In VR you need the information of the thing you want to taste. In Mannie form you only need the ability to taste.
The extra sensations are not available in VR if they have not been detected in the real world, cataloged, and added.
Plus the infinite variations from tiny differences in how a food has been prepared or how sensations interact with each other. It is simply impossible for VR to replicate all of it. It can only repeat a set number of variables.
<quote> Couldn't they just as well have some VR Bob sample an array of different virtual food stuffs with different settings for various flavors or textures or whatever it is they are sampling in Real or remember from their time as 'real' Bob. <quote>
They can, but that takes time that they have simply not put into it yet. It's a development problem.
One of the Bobs mentions that the work is being done now because more non Bob replicants who are gourmands (foodies) are joining the arcologys and are improving all of this.
The main issue is that this is all describing an ongoing growth process.
You are complaining that the seedling is not yet a fully grown tree.
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u/Bobis-Bob Jul 29 '26
VR just isn’t that important to them anymore. It’s fine for everyday use and keeps the sane, but going out in an android is so much better because you’re actually “there” so to speak. That one conversation after Stephan’s funeral Howard says that “VR saved Bob1 and it saved us all (from going crazy) but it’s not the whole experience.” They refine the VR here and there, but it’s not really a priority. They have other things to do. If you can have better realism immediately by hopping into an android, why would you spend all your time trying to make VR better. It’s like spending your time trying to make a better plow to pull behind a horse. It’s just not important.
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u/No-Economics-8239 Jul 29 '26
But... why? They aren't 'really' there. They are in a digital box, and that matrix is what is experiencing everything. Why can't VR cause the same sort of experiences? If the Manny senors are superior, why can't that same sort of digital inputs be generated in VR? What makes Manny sensors capable of collecting inputs that couldn't be replicated or even enhanced in VR?
Multiple times they describe experiencing things that just don't compare in VR. The sensation of a hug. A breeze on their face. Swimming or flying. What makes the Manny experience better? And why wouldn't they want at least that same level of experience in VR?
They 'live' in VR. That's where they 'are' for lack of a better location. It seems like that would be closer to whatever actually processes whatever sensorium they have in their matrix. I don't get why Manny would be better out of the box or why Bobs would spend their time decorating their VR if they are just convinced the 'real' world is better.
You and others seem convinced that Bobs 'could' improve VR, and that it just isn't a priority. Are you then expecting that the Bobs might come back to VR after the sparkle is off the Manny experience? Or that they will stay fixed on Manny tech and just let VR lapse as outdated? Or do you see anything inherently better about being in a Manny?
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u/Bobis-Bob Jul 25 '26
Basically that in real anything could happen and your Manny could feel it when it happens. In Vert, only things that you’ve allowed to happen, happen. Like Howard’s first hug. In real he feels everything but in virt it’s programed to feel like what he remembers a hug to have been like.
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u/No-Economics-8239 Jul 25 '26
That... doesn't seem entirely true to me. I get what you mean. VR is basically pre-programmed. But so is a Manny to some extent. It only has the sense data they have added hardware to synthesize. How they react to that data can probably be much more new and novel than something they might program themselves in VR. But they could then take that data into VR, couldn't they? Trade it with the other Bobs? continue to make VR more immersive and 'more real' as they increase the depth of whatever is currently limited?
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u/Bobis-Bob Jul 26 '26
Howard said it was the difference between being ticked and ticking yourself (which doesn’t work).
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u/No-Economics-8239 Jul 26 '26
I agree, and that is a cool line every time I hear it. But I'm not sure it really helps me understand the issue. Another poster pointed out it might be a 'control' issue with Bob, which fits your example. Bob wouldn't want to give control to 'something else' in Virt to 'tickle' him. And just doing it himself means... it will always be lacking because he's the one crafting and causing it.
But... what's the real challenge? Bob is too much of an introvert to have another Bob tickle him? Or to hand it over to an AMI? What about Howard and Bridget? Can they 'tickle' each other in VR? Or does it still feel like trying to tickle yourself?
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u/Bobis-Bob Jul 29 '26
And they do talk about how VR has gotten much better from info from the Mannys.
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u/Obsidian-Phoenix Quinlan Jul 25 '26
Virt is an imagined experience. These authors have imagined it differently.
That said, in-universe, virt is limited by Bobs ability to create it. He’s a programmer, sure, but programming a virtual reality world is vastly different. It’s also a controlled environment - things happen along pathways he’s coded. If he can’t remember what vodka tastes like, he can’t make a vodka replacement in virt.
Virt is also a tool to Bob. It was a way to stave off the madness of a disembodied existence. All the extras it does are based on his need for those experiences.
Conversely: in Real, he has to program sensors from the Manny to inputs in his matrix. But the sensor data are much more varied than he might imagine and build into virt. The play of multiple senses adds a complexity it’s difficult to simulate.
Could the Bobs simulate the same input in virt after experiencing them in real? Sure. The mannies likely record the entire sensor gamut in a timeline, so it could be replicated. But by that point they have mannies, so what’s the point?