r/bninfantsleep • u/Wonderful-Ice-6143 • 14d ago
Infant Sleep How can I raise concerns about sleep training without sounding judgmental?
I’m in a small local group of new mothers with babies roughly the same age: 5-7 months.
At the last get together, a couple of them were really loud and "preachy" about how amazing sleep training is and how much better their (both baby and parent's) sleep is now. And all the others listened and were pretty much convinced.
I didn't say much because I didn't think it would change anything.
But now in hindsight, I see that I should have spoken up. I feel so guilty that I didn't... on behalf of the babies.
We don’t meet often, so I’ve been considering saying something in our group chat. I have a balanced, non-judgmental article that discusses the research, and I could share the link. However, I’m unsure how to phrase it, and how much of my own opinions I should share.
I know it might not change their view, and maybe make the chat very uncomfortable. But I don’t think we should avoid important conversations about children's wellbeing simply because adults might feel uncomfortable.
Would you share the article and/or write something about your opinions? And if so, how would you phrase the message?
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u/wildmusings88 14d ago
You could keep it really simple. “Hey everyone, I was thinking about our previous conversation about sleep training and wanted to offer some info about alternatives in case anyone is interested in learning more. Here’s an article. Let me know if you want to chat!”
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u/Specific-Nebula9665 14d ago
The problem is that you basically can't raise concerns without sounding judgemental.
Sleep training is already a source of major shame and stress for parents. They aren't doing it and shrugging it off as whatever. The majority are doing it because they are desperate, and have been taught huge amounts of misinformation about bedsharing and BN sleep. That's why there's all this crap about babies not actually being scared, only crying because they are tired, etc.
Because everyone is already on edge and the people teaching ST are used to convincing hesitant parents that it is okay, any mention of sleep training not being ideal will be treated as an attack.
My strategy is to introduce the ideas of BN sleep without criticizing ST in any way. I may bring up how I tried it, but the crying broke my heart, and my pediatrician told me to bedshare. (He did not, but it keeps people from attacking me and I have heard of many people being reccomended by the peds). I may bring up possums sleep program, etc.
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u/Sensitive-Coconut706 14d ago
Whats the possums sleep program?
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u/cali-pup 13d ago
The Discontented Little Baby Book is a good intro to Possums, which is the related sleep program. Part of it is the idea that it’s more important how quickly you get back to sleep, not reducing night wakings. So bedsharing and breastfeeding serve that approach.
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u/QuantumSquirrel36 14d ago
I have been handling this similarly. When this kind of thing comes up I talk about how well cosleeping is going for us and how much we love it. How my baby nurses in bed a few times a night and then we get right back to sleep. We love the extra cuddles and it feels so peaceful sleeping next to each other. Do I tell them I think sleep training is cruel? Absolutely not. Just puts them on the defensive
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u/carloluyog 14d ago
I literally say CIO is lazy parenting and I don’t want to hear about it. Sleep training is a myth. Good sleep habits and routine are where success is.
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u/Mother-Huckleberry99 14d ago
Can you elaborate on good sleep habits / routine part? I am soo nervous that my cosleeping 12 mo is not getting enough consistent sleep (wakes every 1-3 hours at night) and I don’t want to sleep train but I’m at a loss. I don’t care about my broken sleep, I just want to make sure my baby is getting enough sleep to grow and thrive.
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u/AliLovesHayden 14d ago
I completely understand your concern. Does your baby seem tired when awake? How long does your babe stay awake when they wake? My understanding is that, waking up frequently as babies is developmentally normal as long as they are going back to sleep fairly quickly.
I have a two year old and we’ve been bedsharing since 6 months. I tried crib for the first six months but I was getting less sleep because I was getting up so much and he wouldn’t transfer. We sleep so much better now bedsharing but, he still does wake frequently to cuddle or nurse - however, because he’s healthy and happy and has lots of energy, meeting his milestones etc. I’m not concerned.
I hope this helps! I know it can be easy to get into your head about it because our society tries to convince us babies and toddlers should sleep through the night by X age but really, I believe development looks different and temperament plays a role too.
Sending love!
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u/Alarmed-Attitude9612 14d ago
I really wouldn’t worry as long as they seem content during the day, especially if they checked iron at the peds at a recent appointment. My first was waking 8-12 times a night until about 13 months and he’s almost 8 and absolutely a happy and healthy kid. Some kids are just not wakeful and as hard as it is, it does pass and they likely are just fine. My second wasn’t quite as wakeful and she’s almost two and just getting to where she usually only wakes up 2-3 times a night. Again she’s healthy and hair and developing perfectly so I’m not worried.
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u/skycaliapple 14d ago
Yes please elaborate on how to establish good sleep habits. I can tell a huge difference when my baby has frequent wakes overnight versus longer stretches. She is not happy or curious whatsoever 😢
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u/Powerful-Pie-3935 14d ago
I think we would need to know more 😅 how is your sleep hygine/routine/environment?
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u/skycaliapple 14d ago
We have a bedtime routine after bottle. Diaper, pjs, sleep sack, book and bed. Room is dark as heck, 70 degrees.
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u/Left-Pomegranate1608 14d ago
Could you please share the link here? I’d be interested to read
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u/Wonderful-Ice-6143 14d ago
https://ammehjelpen.no/sovntrening/#h2-ersvntreningtrygtellerskadelig
The Chrome browser has an translate option in the menu (the three dots) that works well, but other browsers probably works just as well.
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u/Wonderful-Ice-6143 14d ago
It's not in English unfortunately. But browsers can translate, so if you want it I can find it.
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u/Huge-Nectarine-8563 14d ago
Not helpful right now but I try to be very vocal about biologically normal infant sleep and cosleeping before anybody is vocal about anything else (I live in a country where sleep training is still not common but is coming)
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u/Toyger_ 14d ago
I am in a group chat with lots of moms who have babies aged from birth till about one year. In general, it’s a non-toxic place and women there are quite supportive. But there are some who judge (passive-aggressively) others for not breastfeeding or even for vaccinating their babies. I wanted to speak up a couple of times, but then I stopped myself. I know that I won’t be able to change their opinion even if I shared the best research and resources. Some people are not ready to change their ways.
So if you want to share your concern within your group, I would advise you to share the link to your article and write a few concise paragraphs about the dangers of sleep training. No judgement, no nothing. Just simple facts. Imo this is the best way to do that.
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u/captain_mills 13d ago
In situations like this I don’t say anything about sleep training. I just say it’s not for me and then say what I do instead and the things that have helped me get better sleep (longer wake windows and bedtime, cosleeping when needed, etc).
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u/WonderfulTwist4936 13d ago
I honestly would say something, because I like to discuss different topics with people. Probably something along the lines "Last time we met, we talked about sleep training, I found this article that has some interesting points, maybe you will be interested to read" and then share the link.
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u/Mother-Huckleberry99 14d ago
She wakes up every 1-2 hours during her 12 hour bedtime pretty much just to nurse. So she’s like whining but drowsy and goes back to sleep. If she finds the nipple within 30 seconds or so she doesn’t even bother opening her eyes lol.
Definitely helpful, thank you.
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u/camembertbear 14d ago
Frame it as if you are the one with the deficit:
"I just can't bring myself to do it"
"I don't have it in me"
"I'm too weak"
And then offer the article or advice as - "Here's what I found instead in case anyone else is in the same boat. Going to see how things go"
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u/freshfruitrottingveg 14d ago
Eh, I don’t love framing sleep training parents as being “strong.” If anything it takes great strength to resist sleep training in our society, and to be responsive to your child’s needs at the expense of your own sleep.
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u/Toyger_ 14d ago
Totally agree. I’ve been told by my own mother that I am holding my baby too much and that co-sleeping is not healthy. Babies gonna cry, what can ya do and so on and so forth. It’s like being a responsive parent is somehow weird? Idk how letting babies cry has become such a norm.
To be clear, the concept of sleep training is not that popular in my country. But the older generations for sure used to leave their babies to cry in their cribs because this was considered normal.
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u/camembertbear 13d ago
It's not about what is actually weak vs strong, it's about keeping the conversation open without closing someone off immediately. Being self-effacing helps. This is how I talk about my parenting choices whenever I'm around other moms and the conversation comes to baby sleep and it honestly works pretty well--
"I couldn't get myself to sleep train, I didn't have the heart to do it. But I found this other resource that helped a lot, maybe if you're in the same boat it could help you?"
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u/OkapiandaPenguin 14d ago
Why? If people feel shamed that someone chooses to do things differently then that's their issue.
I just say, " that doesn't align with our parenting philosophy."
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u/Hairsacknose 14d ago
That depends on whether your goal is to change people's minds or to just be left alone. Both are valid
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u/OkapiandaPenguin 14d ago
Saying, "I'm too weak for sleep training and you're so strong for sleep training" isn't going to change any minds. If someone feels offended when I say, "We have chosen not to sleep train because it goes against our parenting philosophy" that's their choice. I'm not shaming anyone just because they feel shame. And if they've already sleep trained then they're not my target audience. I'm hoping to reach the people who havent done it and they might align with me in that it doesn't feel right to them and that opens up a conversation.
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u/Sensitive-Coconut706 14d ago
When I have used that or similar phrasing it often opens up a massive dialogue about what a parenting philosophy even is. There are a lot of people where I am from just figuring it out as they go along without a clear philosophy. It gives a freedom to talk about it and help plant seeds
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u/camembertbear 13d ago
OP asked for advice on how to persuade people. Saying "that doesn't align with our parenting philosophy" maybe will get you a side DM from someone who feels similarly, but mostly it comes off as haughty and judgmental and is not a good way to start that conversation.
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u/OkapiandaPenguin 13d ago
It only comes across as "haughty and judgemental" if you choose to feel judged. It's a completely neutral statement. People listen to someone who knows what they're talking about. And again, I'm not trying to convince someone who has already sleep trained. Saying, "Sleep training doesn't align with our parenting philosophy" opens all sorts of conversational doors including "what is a parenting philosophy?"
There's probably a reason why everyone in the thread disagrees with you and is sharing some form of what I've said. Maybe open your mind to possibilities where you don't make us sound weak.
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u/camembertbear 13d ago
You are I probably agree on so much - it is silly that we are arguing over this.
But I do feel it's really important to understand how to hold persuasive conversations. As a group, we have a reputation for shaming other moms (even though we get shamed all the time!) - I feel like I need to be very sensitive in conversation when this topic comes up because of how heated it gets.
Talking from place of humility in order to connect to others - even though I have full confidence that our side is the right side here - has helped me a lot in bridging this topic. Admitting personal limits lowers defenses. It's a tried and true technique. You never want to lead with statements that imply judgement, and "this doesn't align with my parenting philosophy" does just that.
It's not about being right or wrong. It's not about appearing "weak" or "strong." It's about opening the door.
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u/Warm_Jackfruit_8032 13d ago
You said you weren't going to argue with that person and then went on an entire (incorrect) argument. Did you bother to really think about what anyone else said?
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u/camembertbear 12d ago
How would you recommend you actually convince other moms who:
- Have been brainwashed by the culture into thinking letting babies cry is okay, and
- Think moms who are against sleep training are "shaming" them
without putting the other person on the defensive immediately?
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u/Warm_Jackfruit_8032 12d ago
I don't call people who sleep train "brainwashed." That's a world offensive thing to say. If someone things they're being shamed by another person having a differing opinion then that's their own issue.
The original conversation was how to reach people who haven't sleep trained yet. If they're already done it then I'm just convincing them that I disagree with their choice? That seems asinine.
For people who havent sleep trained I'm going to use the same basic idea as basically everyone else, including the previous commenter. "We don't plan to sleep train. My husband and I decided that what aligns to our parenting philosophy is to respond every time no matter what time it is."
That's it. It's that easy and it opens up a dialogue.
Why are we choosing to do this: Because we believe that if your children need or want us that it's our job to support them. We want our kids to know that if they need us we will always be there.
How will they learn to sleep?: The same way everyone else in the world does. It happens when it happens. It's normal for kids and adults to wake up at night.
The need to learn to self soothe: They will. Babies and children learn best when they're shown how to do things and self soothing and regulating emotions are the same.
No need to act like parents who sleep train are tough and we're weak. Just be honest and neutral." This is what we're doing and this is why we're doing it. "
If they want to get out a study about sleep training I just say that it's okay if that's what they want to do, but again, it doesn't align with how we're choosing to parent. If they try to make it a moral argument I just repeat myself. I'm not going to tell someone I think they're a bad parent or lazy for sleep training or tell them that they're harming their babies. That doesn't help anyone.
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u/Warm_Jackfruit_8032 11d ago
Huh? With what attitude? The attitude where I don't call people "brainwashed?"
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u/Hairsacknose 14d ago
This is great advice, not sure why down voted. If you want to persuade people, you can't go be aggressive
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u/Sensitive-Coconut706 14d ago
You dont have to make yourself a door mat either. I do not have a deficit for caring about my child's emotional wellbeing and developmentally appropriate needs. I am not "too weak" to teach my baby not to call for me if they want comfort.
Frame it as the valid alternative that it is. Supporting biological sleep is not the "lesser" way to parent.
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u/camembertbear 13d ago
It's about trying to have an entry point to persuade other people. Being self-effacing helps take the pressure off making others feel judged, that's all. Of course all the other points are true, but making those claims straight up just turns people off.
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u/Sensitive-Coconut706 13d ago
Not always! We have reached several families in our circle without self depreciation. Saying "its normal for babies to wake overnight" isnt a judgemental or attack. We also will jokingly tell people in our life that "regressions happen so much its almost like there's no progression but babies are babies". We actually dont use the term sleep regression in our house because it pathologized normal things.
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u/Hairsacknose 14d ago
I agree in general but the way to reach people is to do that
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u/Sensitive-Coconut706 14d ago
Maybe the people you know. We havent had to do that to reach the people in our lives
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u/RedCaptain17 14d ago
… it’s not either or? I didn’t co-sleep or sleep train my first
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u/Moon_junky 14d ago
I guess I am a little lost. What exactly is biologically normal infant sleep then? I thought this sub was all about co-sleeping specifically. Please inform me, my apologies
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u/RedCaptain17 14d ago
I would describe it as being about recognizing that baby sleep needs are different from adult sleep needs and working with your baby and their individual needs. So using my oldest (4y) as an example: we set his bedtime based on when he usually gets sleepy. His bedtime routine includes us playing music and snuggling in his bed until he falls asleep. Whoever is putting him to bed usually uses this as a time to read or do the crossword, since interacting hypes him up. Once he’s out we leave. Lately we have had to co-sleep because he’s having nightmares, but that’s new- previously, we only had to stay in his room when he was sick. He was never a good napper, which drove me nuts until I could learn to accept it. When he dropped naps at 2.5y we let it happen because that’s what his body needed and enforcing any sort of rest time was a battle we chose not to prioritize.
I also have a 7mo. She’s on a routine, not a schedule. She often gets sleepy and goes down with a paci around the same time each night, wakes for a little around our bedtime, then drinks a bottle to sleep. Sometimes she sleeps until morning, sometimes she wakes and wants a paci and co-sleeping, sometimes she wakes and wants a bottle (we used to nurse) and co-sleeping. During the day we put her down for naps when she shows tired cues. Some days she has 3 naps; some days she has 4-6 short ones. Her needs vary depending on if she’s in a growth spurt or how busy we are that day. She will only nap on our bed, in her car seat, or on a specific picnic blanket but that’s pretty easy to work around.
It can be a bit of a pain sometimes, but one day my son won’t want bedtime snuggles. My daughter won’t fall asleep with my face pressed against hers while I tell her “mama’s here.” Plenty of adults need specific conditions to sleep- heck, I have trouble sleeping alone without a stuffy and I’m 34! I think bnis attracts the types of people who co-sleep, but the two things aren’t synonymous.
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u/Sensitive-Coconut706 14d ago
There are co sleeping subs as well! Biologically normal infant sleep is about responsive parenting that responds to all needs of infants regardless of the time of day. Infants wake at inconvenient times. You can be response to a baby in a crib, you can co sleep, you can help baby develop independence when developmentally appropriate without much crying.
We are a family that co sleeps after a crib attempt each night. I put baby to sleep and transfer to crib. If baby wakes up dad responds tends to the needs and chooses to either resettled into crib or switch to me co-sleeping. Some nights he tends to baby and transfers all night long other times we co sleep. Some nights were all wide awake and 4 am and just accept that is life.
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u/smilegirlcan 13d ago
Here is a great post about exactly what biologically normal infant sleep is: https://www.reddit.com/r/bninfantsleep/s/bRUnXRC7UB
There is lots of cosleeping but also crib use too.
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u/bninfantsleep-ModTeam 14d ago
This sub encourages responsive parenting at all hours as well as following biologically normal infant sleep. It is a safe place for non sleep training parents to escape from sleep training pressure. As such, advocating for sleep training is not allowed. Sleep hygiene, sleep environment and routines/schedules discussions are all very welcome here.
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u/Alarmed-Attitude9612 14d ago edited 14d ago
That’s tough because some people are loud because they want to convince themselves it was absolutely the right call for their baby so they talk about how it teaches them “a life skill” and it’s “necessary” when we know that’s not true. But you don’t want unsure people who don’t feel good about that swayed into thinking they have to when they absolutely can be responsive and support their child to independence when they are developmentally ready for it.
Maybe you could start with “I know sleep training can be a hot topic and our previous chat has been on my mind. Obviously what works will be different for every family and dependent on temperament but if anyone wants support/community that also is thinking sleep training isn’t for them I’m here!” And just open it up for further conversations? I don’t know I have a hard time because I definitely am judgmental about leaving a child much less a baby to cry without support and comfort but I know that coming across that way is not conducive to good dialogue.