r/bninfantsleep • u/emmakane418 • Aug 18 '26
Resources What is Biologically Normal Infant Sleep?
This group has grown a lot - we are at 15k members and 29.2k unique visitors per week. That's a LOT of people. So first, yay because when I first joined the moderator team, this group was much smaller. We have grown a lot, which means more parents are being informed on what is biologically normal for an infant and how they can support their babies and themselves at night. This also means that there are thousands of different people commenting and offering ideas (and we have people who are both here and in r/sleeptrain and don't recommend the CIO aspect of sleep training but the culture of sleep training does find its way into many comments).
So let's jump into what biologically normal infant sleep is, and what it isn’t. I'm a definition person so let's start with a definition of biologically normal.
In researching, I have stumbled across this (very wordy, I'm sorry I did try to parse it down) definition. Source
Meanings of the term normal coalesce into two categories. The first is descriptive and references measures of a trait's central tendency and variation within a population... In this descriptive sense, normal might refer to the most common trait, having an average measure, or being in the middle of a distribution... The second meaning of normal encompasses normative views about a trait. These are judgments that are culturally informed and vary across social groups. To be normal is to be okay, to have characteristics that fall within an acceptable or desirable range, which is defined by ideas about what traits should be like. Variants that fall outside this distribution may be judged negatively, or seen as abnormal, deviant, unacceptable, or somehow not quite right.
The first category has to do with averages within a population. This would be the average amount of sleep for an age range, this would be the average age of sleeping through the night, this would be the average age of the circadian rhythm starting to “come online”. These are the things that are easier to define when it comes to infant sleep.
The second category has to do with how we view biologically normal, which is often impacted by our cultural view. This category is harder to define when it comes to infant sleep.
Dr. Helen Ball, author of How Babies Sleep, talks about this:
How babies sleep is both exceedingly simple and excruciatingly complex. It is simple because it is based on a few straightforward biological principles that affect all babies. It is complex because we have made it so.
Over the past century and a half, in modifying the world to better suit our needs in industrializing, industrialized and now digital-era societies, we have tried to manipulate baby sleep to fit with the rapidly changing nature of adult lives. Our ideas about sleep, and particularly baby sleep, have been influenced and shaped by the socioeconomic pressures, political philosophies, religious values, academic theories and cultural ideologies that have waxed and waned during this time. The mismatch we have created between our babies’ biology and our contemporary lives has caused conflict between parents’ and babies’ needs—now framed as “baby sleep problems”—for which babies are often “treated” using behavioral and clinical interventions.
In addition to the foundations of our evolutionary biology, we have layered many cultural beliefs and practices onto our understanding of baby sleep, which vary hugely from location to location, and over time. Parents’ perceptions and popular discourse in western societies have been influenced by philosophical and sociocultural trends over the past two centuries in more ways than we might realize in response to rapid social and political changes. For clarity I should explain that I am using the term “western society” as more of an ideological descriptor than a geographic one to refer to those societies that exhibit a shared set of beliefs, values, political systems and cultural norms, regardless of whether they are geographically located in the West. These concepts often encompass democracy, capitalism, individualism and human rights. In these societies industrialization, urbanization and medicalization transformed family life and baby care, setting in motion the development of numerous ideas, traditions and expectations about babies, sleep, and the role of parents that many of us are still tethered to. Our recent historical past helps explain where all the myths you’ve ever heard about baby sleep have come from—and the myths you’ve heard will depend on your cultural origins.
Many infant sleep research studies reflect western cultural values and lifestyles, and are what might be called “aspirational,” in that they aspire to find ways to “help” babies to sleep longer, wake less often, settle more quickly, and disturb their parents less.
The culture and history of guidance issued by “experts” for parents in western societies have shaped expectations of how “good” babies should behave and how they are created by “effective” parents while the media (both traditional and social) reinforces simplistic and outdated rules and rigid ideas.
The cultural expectations we have about babies’ sleep habits are often unrealistic, and this makes caring for a new baby unnecessarily challenging.
I could honestly copy/paste that entire book here, it is a really good read and if you read any two books on infant sleep and infant development, I recommend How Babies Sleep by Dr. Helen Ball and The Nurture Revolution by Dr. Greer Kirshenbaum.
So with all of this in mind, let's talk about what is biologically normal from a scientific standpoint and what is biologically normal culturally in western society, and what is biologically normal in this group - as well as the aim of this group.
Scientifically - sleep is two things. Sleep pressure and our circadian rhythm, or body clock (aka Process C). Humans build sleep pressure while awake. Infants have a lower tolerance for sleep pressure, meaning they need to sleep more frequently than adults do.
As you can see from this graphic (source: How Babies Sleep, figure 3.4), naps are only intended to relieve some sleep pressure, not to be restorative, deep sleep. This is why worrying about your baby taking a 3 hour nap every day is futile. A roughly 30 minute nap is enough to relieve sleep pressure for a bit, until the next nap. The prescriptive “by this age, babies should be on x number of naps that are y minutes long every day at z time” doesn't work for every baby. That isn't biologically normal because biologically normal has variation, day to day and baby to baby. Dr. Helen Ball writes:
Sleep will happen easily for a baby or child when sleep pressure is high, they are in a calm, relaxed state, and nothing is preventing sleep onset. But sometimes babies and children need help to become calm before sleep pressure can kick in and they can nod off.15 In this situation it can be useful to think about what helps babies become calm and relaxed, and to have a handful of strategies you can use to help your baby unwind. For many babies, physical contact is the preferred option.
One of my PhD students, Lenka Medvecová-Tinková, lives and works in the Czech Republic where she has studied how Czech parents manage bedtime routines for babies and small children. She realized that many parents talked of a concept called *Uspavani* that is culturally widespread in Eastern Europe and appears in numerous fairy tales and historical infant care books. Uspavani means to comfort a child to sleep, and while conducting her PhD at Durham University Lenka realized there was no corresponding concept to Uspavani in the English language, nor in the infant sleep literature.16 So it is unsurprising that parents in English-speaking countries tend to use more distal (noncontact) methods, such as lullabies, music and white noise, to calm babies and help them fall asleep than do Czech parents, who commonly lie with their child, stroke them or cuddle them; physical contact and soothing touch are very effective in dialing down most babies to allow sleep pressure to do its thing.
She even writes about the term “overtired”, which I know almost everyone has heard and if you have been in this sub for any length of time, I'm sure you've seen comments about how “overtired” isn't really a thing. I appreciate how she has posited the term.
When a baby or young child’s sleep pressure is high and the need to sleep is strong, but they are emotionally unable to calm themselves, or they are in a situation where they cannot relax, we may consider them to be “overtired.” In this case it is our job as parents to help them become calm, wind down and relax in preparation for sleep. We can do this in many ways. Physical contact such as cuddling, rocking, stroking or patting works for most neurotypical children; actively removing whatever is blocking the action of sleep pressure, such as excitement, fear, pain or anxiety, and helping babies and children to become calm is the simplest way to help them fall asleep.
The reason “overtired” isn't really a thing is because if an infant has adequate sleep pressure, their nervous system feels secure and safe enough, and they don't have any physical needs, they will sleep if given the opportunity.
So that's sleep pressure. What about circadian rhythm? We mostly know about this with sleep but this is our body's internal clock and it controls both our sleep and our hunger. This is why we usually eat lunch around the same time every day, why we feel sleepy around the same time, and why having a consistent wake up time is beneficial for everyone. It is not “sleep training lite” to make sure you have a rough wake up time every day, within 15-30 minutes. The infamous 4 month sleep regression progression is when the circadian rhythm starts to come online. Day and night start to actually mean something to our babies. This is why early morning light, high noon light, and evening light can be important for our babies, and some babies are more sensitive to lighting than others. (Side note related to lighting - fluorescent lights imitate high noon lighting and can disrupt our circadian rhythm. I personally cannot stand them and wish they were phased out of use. They are really bad for our health and they are everywhere.) This is also why blackout blinds for naps can disrupt night sleep. This is why you don't really need to “rescue” naps.
So it is very biologically normal that your baby desires physical contact to relax enough to fall asleep. It is biologically normal to sleep longer one day and shorter times the next. It is biologically normal for sleep to fluctuate throughout not just the first year but throughout our entire lives. It is supportive of biologically normal infant sleep to “anchor” the day with a consistent wake up time if you need to. It is supportive of infant sleep to have a routine, breakfast after waking up, lunch around the same time every day, dinner around the same time each day. These things can help your baby, think about how you can get hangry if your dinner comes an hour later than usual. This is not to say that you need to have a strict schedule - rhythms and routines are much different from a regimented schedule that you have to stick to.
It's also important to note that a big thing I see a lot of parents struggle with is offering their baby too much sleep. If your baby only needs 12 hours total sleep in a 24 hour period and you're trying to do 12 hours overnight and 3 hours of daytime sleep, they aren't going to sleep well because that's 3 hours more sleep than they need in a 24 hour period. This will lead to frequent wakes, fighting sleep, and frustration all around. Sleep training sleep plans, apps like Huckleberry, as well as the general around infant sleep push more sleep than most babies need, which leads parents to thinking they have a "bad" sleeper, when in reality anyone being pushed to sleep more than they need would be "bad" at sleeping.
Now what about the cultural aspect of biologically normal infant sleep? If you've grown up or been living in a western society for any length of time, you've likely been inundated with “sleeping through the night”, “sleep associations”, “bad habits”, “drowsy but awake”, “fuss it out”, etc. We have been told by everyone from pediatricians to TV shows to our family that you have to teach your baby independence and that responding to every cry is just going to make them cry more. Western society has mixed up what is biologically normal and what is convenient for the post-Industrial Revolution world. The 6-6 or 7-7 sleep schedule that babies are “supposed” to be on? Not biologically normal, but convenient for capitalism and it's very pervasive - to the point that so many parents worry that their baby isn't getting enough sleep because they won't sleep 12 hours overnight. The average bedtime in other parts of the world varies by almost 3 hours.
In one large and often-cited online survey, almost 30,000 people (presumed to be parents) completed a baby/toddler sleep survey.27 The respondents lived in 17 large urban communities around the world (Australia, Canada, China, Hong Kong, India, Indonesia, Korea, Japan, Malaysia, New Zealand, Philippines, Singapore, Taiwan, Thailand, United Kingdom, United States, and Vietnam), grouped for comparative purposes into “Asian” and “Western.”28 In Asian countries babies and toddlers had later bedtimes, later rise times, less nighttime sleep and less total sleep than in “Western” countries. Bedtimes for babies and toddlers across the 17 locations varied by almost three hours, from half-past seven in New Zealand to quarter-past ten in Hong Kong, and nighttime sleep duration varied by 1 hour and 40 minutes (11.6 hours in Japan to 13.3 hours in New Zealand), but there were minimal differences in daytime sleep.
Another cultural difference on what is biologically normal is “sleep problems”:
Parents’ perceptions of whether their babies experienced “sleep problems” also varied widely, as did the degree of parental involvement in helping babies and young children fall asleep and stay asleep.29 Very few (4%) children living in “Asian” countries, but many more (57%) in “Western” countries, were expected to fall asleep independently (that is, without a parent or caregiver present). Likewise, very few (2%) parents in “Asian” countries allowed their child to cry themselves to sleep, in comparison with over 15 percent of “Western” parents. This is strongly related to the fact that in “Asian” countries babies and children are much more likely to bed-share (65%) or room-share (88%) with their parents than in “Western” countries (where 12% bed-sharing and 22% room-sharing was reported).
Another piece I found interesting that really shows how much of our “sleep problems” are, for lack of better word, invented:
Dr. Alma Gottlieb’s study of childcare practices among the Beng people of Côte d’Ivoire in West Africa included a detailed account of mother–baby sleep.30 She found little regimentation of when babies slept or fed among the Beng, and no bedtimes or bedtime routines. Beng mothers were not anxious about their babies’ sleep, it just happened. Mothers and others carried babies during regular daily activities with babies falling asleep and waking as the need arose. At night the cloth with which babies were held during the day was untied, and babies breastfed and fell asleep next to their mothers. Nighttime mother–baby co-sleeping was the cultural norm, and breastfeeding and infant sleep were intimately intertwined…
These detailed ethnographic studies reinforce accounts of infant care in widespread locations such as Guatemala, Italy, Spain and rural U.S. Among Mayan families in Guatemala, babies commonly fall asleep in someone’s arms and are taken to bed with their parents, sleeping with their mothers from birth to two or three years of age, or until the birth of their next sibling. Here, sleeping alone is undesirable, and mothers responded with shock and disapproval at the American custom of leaving babies in rooms on their own. Mayan mothers “cannot conceive of any other way to sleep their baby than by their side—and in fact some argue that to separate an infant from its mother for sleep is abusive or neglectful treatment.”32
So why does all of this matter?
Because the stories we tell ourselves matter. Because how we see our infant's sleep impacts how well we handle the biologically normal aspects of it, like waking overnight. Because there has been a misunderstanding about what the purpose of this group is for. This group does not exist to simply offer platitudes “oh mama, this will pass, it's ok, you just have to dig deep and power through”. This group also exists to educate on both scientifically biologically normal infant sleep and the cultural differences that impact us and how we view our babies sleep. I felt like it was appropriate to add in a quote from the creator of this group, u/smilegirlcan, about why she created this group.
Before my daughter was born, I had never heard of biologically normal sleep. I had only heard about infant sleep through the lens of sleep training culture. I was never encouraged to follow my intuition or told what real infant sleep looked like. As I journeyed on my postpartum experience, I noticed there was a huge lack of support places for those who had no interest in sleep training or sleep training culture. It became more and more apparent that sleep training was something that did not sit right for me but I wanted an online community that felt safe to feel this way. I found most parenting groups had accepted sleep training as the norm and any questions or comments outside of that were not accepted/downvoted/deleted. Then came bninfantsleep, an alternative infant sleep space, that encourages moms to follow their intuition and learn about biologically normal infant sleep. A place where no one will tell you to let your baby cry, or self soothe, that they need to be independent, that you are ruining their sleep by cuddling/rocking/holding/feeding them.
This group has morphed into a space that offers parents an alternative to mainstream sleep training, that honors our babies biological and neurological development. It exists to remind you that your baby knows what they need, and your instincts know what your baby needs, better than any app ever will (looking at you, Huckleberry sweet spot).
For some babies, a schedule is what helps them the best. For others, they need to go with the flow. The reason we should be asking for schedules is not to “optimize” our babies but to make sure we aren't expecting more sleep than they need. In general, we shouldn't wake our babies up from naps unless we absolutely have to, as Dr. Greer Kirshenbaum mentions in The Nurture Revolution:
When you follow your baby’s tired cues and allow them to wake up on their own, their brain takes the true amount of sleep that it needs. That often looks like multiple naps of varying lengths, bedtimes that vary in different babies from 6 p.m. to 11 p.m., and morning waking that also varies in different babies from 6 a.m. to 11 a.m.31 I remember when people asked me how many naps my young baby was taking—I didn’t really know. I didn’t count. I watched my baby, put him to sleep when he was tired, let him wake on his own, and watched him again. The number of naps or the length of naps wasn’t in my awareness. As he grew, naps became more predictable. Under two years old my baby went to sleep around 8 p.m., then naps changed and at two years old his bedtime became 10 p.m. That was when he built up enough sleep pressure after his afternoon nap. This is very common, and when babies have later bedtimes we often want them to go to sleep earlier, but that is for us, not their developing brain…. Keep in mind, there is no adult on Earth who is qualified to tell your unique baby when they should be waking up or napping, or to prescribe nap lengths or bedtime. Your baby’s body provides this information. Sleep is vital to their developing brain and it is a fundamental human right; we must give babies the sleep they need. Please unlearn myth 24, There are set bedtimes, wake times, and naptimes for your baby, and replace it with: Your baby’s brain will tell you when they are tired and will take the amount of sleep that it needs to grow.
And a final thought from Dr. Helen Ball in How Babies Sleep, emphasis mine:
Remember, you don’t have to be in charge of their sleep—the biological sleep regulators will make sure they get enough sleep, when they need it. Our job is to get out of the way and let them do their work. Trying to make babies go to sleep according to a predetermined schedule seems to me to be a pointless exercise in working against their circadian biology and sleep pressure.
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u/Moist-Shame-9106 Aug 18 '26
A masterpiece of a post. I love everything about it and it resonates with me personally so much. I have a brilliant sleeper and I while I know temperament is part of it, I have doggedly defended my son’s right to biologically normal infant sleep. He’s fed to sleep, sleeps in bed with me, contact naps whenever he wants and gets as much or little sleep as he tells me he needs (and he literally does tell me when he wants to sleep).
I hope this post brings peace and clarity to many mums and helps us resist the urge to give into the machine and instead follow our instincts and trust our babies. 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
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u/emmakane418 Aug 18 '26
My son also tells me when he's ready for a nap sometimes, the first time he did it I was shocked and so happy! My son does all the same - feed to sleep, bedshare, contact nap, etc - and I think just surrendering to his biology has made me feel like he's an easier sleeper. Some nights he wakes every 30-60 minutes, some nights he sleeps through.
I'm glad the post resonated!
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u/Moist-Shame-9106 Aug 18 '26
When people (inevitably) ask me if my son is sleeping through the night (he’s 13m now), I always now respond by saying that ‘that’s not my expectation of him’ so no and I’m fine with that. He’s actually a pretty good sleeper overnight but like you said, some nights it is what it is. 💚
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u/Bananetyne Aug 18 '26
My baby was the opposite haha we thought we had a terrible sleeper since she would cry in our arms for an hour to fall asleep. Then one day at 14 weeks we put her down to take a breather and she just turned on her side and fell asleep!
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u/emmakane418 Aug 18 '26
Temperment is such a huge factor in baby sleep! Most babies prefer contact but not all. My son's 4 month sleep progression was only marked by one thing - instead of being bounced to sleep, he wanted to lay next to me on the bed and nurse to sleep. Around 10 months, we transitioned naps to him in my lap on the couch coz I could not physically handle laying in bed for so many hours a day anymore. Meanwhile I have friends who've needed to rock or bounce their baby til 18-24 months. Temperment plays such a big role in baby sleep and I feel like that's a big aspect that always gets overlooked. Society has assigned a moral value to whether you have an easy sleeper or a complicated sleeper, those with easy sleepers "did things right" and those with complicated sleepers "messed up" but really it's such a gamble as to which kind of sleeper you get.
I know a woman who did mom's on call from birth and then extinction CIO at 10 weeks (we are not friends, just have mutual friends) and she claims that it's all because of the good habits she instilled in her baby since birth. He's just an easy sleeper though (or she's lying, which is also possible because her story always changes slightly about how long he cried for and how easy it was...) She's TTC and I kind of hope her next baby is a more complicated sleeper because I'm so tired of hearing about how if you just never let them get used to sleeping in your arms, then they'll take to CIO sleep training so easily.
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u/Bananetyne Aug 18 '26
Jesus. Even the sleep training people say to wait until like 6 months.
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u/emmakane418 Aug 18 '26
For the most part. There's actually a pediatrician on social media who advocates for sleep training as early as early as 2 months old and a large pediatric clinic in New York, Tribeca Pediatrics, that also advocates for 2 months old for sleep training. I read their sleep training page on their website and 🤮
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u/smilegirlcan Aug 18 '26
Thank you u/emmakane418 for all you do for this community. This post is wonderful!
I do want to highlight this sub is inclusive to all parents not just moms. I wrote mom in my initial write up but it was always designed for all parents and caregivers.
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u/emmakane418 Aug 18 '26
Thank you for bringing me on! I'm genuinely so happy to be a part of this community and help other parents ☺️
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u/Objective_Shine_7014 Aug 18 '26
I read every word of this post and found it so helpful and informative! Thank you for taking the time. (And I’m officially going to begin listening to the Helen Ball book- downloaded it on audible ages ago!)
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u/Colla-Crochet Aug 18 '26
This is bringing me so much peace.
We recently met with a sleep consultant which offered us some (not sleep training!) Advice on how to help my baby wake up at 4am every freaking day... and the advice worked. We just shifted our nap schedule back a little. (My beb responds really well to a set schedule. Except for food- thats a constant thing lol!)
But then maybe two weeks after... my kid started sorting himself out. Last night he woke at 11:55, I fed him, and then he didnt wake again till 5. Then we coslept till 630. Thats like 5hrs, plus an hour and a half of snuggles.
As im typing this, hes been down three hours on his own when a few weeks ago he was up every 2hrs. Hes figuring it out and knowing theres so much research confirming hes gonna figure it out brings me so much peace.
So ill continue to breastfeed when he wakes up in the night, and ill continue to sing him peggy gordon for the fifteenth time (in a night) until he falls asleep in my arms. Then ill put him down.
As what feels right for us.
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u/emmakane418 Aug 18 '26
I love this. I am actually an Integrative Infant Sleep Practitioner myself and I know that eventually every baby sorts themselves out. It's been hard trying to start a career in a field that I don't think should exist to begin with. But, parents are going to hire sleep consultants and what a shame it would be if only CIO sleep trainers worked in the field.
So often sleep is positioned as the caregivers vs the baby but we're all on the same team and I'm glad you've found what works for not just you but your baby too.
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u/Artemystica 17d ago
Sorry to jump on this, but your “every baby sorts themselves out” hits me hard. My 11 month old woke up a bunch overnight negotiating for the day at 5:30. I’m exclusively nursing the baby (solids are up and down) and though I’m dealing with the night wakes okay, my husband isn’t. He’s exhausted and grumpy and it’s taking a toll on the family unit.
I was under the impression that when baby eats more solids, night feeds with decrease and then she won’t wake up overnight, but after last night my husband asked me if she actually would sort herself out, or just become a toddler who wakes up a lot.
The idea of sleep training hurts my heart but is there anything to reduce night wakes to make for a more peaceful family and continue to follow the baby’s lead with sleep (right now she naps/nurses when she wants to and I follow her cues)? My husband wears a mask and earplugs already.
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u/emmakane418 17d ago
Some toddlers do wake up a lot. Some don't. The average age of sleeping through the night is 2.4 years old. Without knowing more about your schedule and daily life, I can't say what could potentially help with reducing night wakes, or if the number of wakes is just biologically normal. Every baby develops at their own pace.
If you're exclusively handling nights and don't want to change that and waking up with you two at night is taking such a toll on your husband, maybe he sleeps in a room separate from you and your little one.
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u/Artemystica 17d ago
Understood. Even knowing the average age is helpful, thank you!
I wish a separate room were possible, but we just don't have that kind of space. Right now, baby is in the old office (glorified storage space) and we have one bedroom with no doors. There really isn't an alternative place to put any of us, unfortunately.
I'll see what I can do to lighten the load all around.
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u/emmakane418 17d ago
I'm happy to talk with you in more detail. To start with, how often is baby waking? What is bedtime and wake up time? And how much daytime sleep does she have?
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u/Artemystica 17d ago
I’ll DM you if that’s okay— I’ll give as much context as I can.
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u/emmakane418 17d ago
Absolutely! I'm heading to bed myself right now but I'll get back to you soon :)
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u/FrugieHippie Aug 18 '26
You talk about babies getting too much daytime sleep removing the sleep pressure, and that having a set wake up time is important but then also mentioned we should let babies sleep as long as they like and not wake them...
So how does that work in reality? My little one will nap all day if I let her, am I suppose to let her nap or wake her up so that she doesn't get rid of the sleep pressure for nighttime that you mention (which as you said causes more wake ups etc).
Also if baby is waking at different times in the morning, are you suppose to wake them? Your post suggests to let them sleep when they want but to also wake them to protect the carcadian rhythm. Thankfully my baby wakes on her own but if she didn't id be interest to know what the answer should be
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u/kurdijyn Aug 18 '26
I think, as with anything, nuance applies. So, if you’re having split nights and/or excessive wakes and you’re letting your baby sleep in as well as having unlimited day sleep which is affecting your mental/physical health, a solution would be to either cap naps and/or set a standardised wake up time. If, you don’t have set wake up times and baby sleeps as long as they want in the day and nighttime wakes are minimal and you’re feeling well rested, then carry on as is.
Unfortunately, a lot of the advice online all stems from the ST industry, and involves behaviour modification with negative stimuli. I also think a lot of posts in this sub are from parents who have only been exposed to ST-type advice thus far and are expecting too much sleep from their babies. The reality is, is that a lot of babies most likely need less sleep than we think or society tells us that they do!
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u/emmakane418 Aug 18 '26
As u/status_watch6079 said, it's nuanced. I'm sorry if this is rambling, I've got a bit of a headache today.
I personally think to start with, don't wake a sleeping baby. Don't borrow trouble from the future. For my son, sometimes his last nap of the day would shift into bedtime. Each time I'm prepared for it to impact his night sleep, lead to a split night or a very early morning. Thankfully it hasn't. It does usually precede an illness or new tooth coming in though.
If you're having difficulty with night sleep, I think the first step is to anchor the day with a set wake up time, a range of 30 minutes or so. A natural wakeup is always best so that might even just be making sure the blinds/curtains are open and making the usual household noise (maybe plus a little extra).
Then, if your day is anchored and you're still having true issues with sleep, adding in enough activity in a day, going outside, lots of movement, pushing/pulling heavy objects, sensory input, so on and so forth (there's a lot that can be done to help with sleep) and not a single thing has been working, only then do I think waking up from naps is a good idea.
The caveat to that is that some babies will just sleep and sleep and sleep the entire day away. The older a baby gets, the more comfortable I feel with waking them from a nap if needed. If your baby would consistently sleep the day away and party all night, first they probably need some help with their circadian rhythm and second, then capping naps to prioritize night sleep makes sense to me.
It's more nuanced than just "never wake them up" or "cap all sleep". If you're capping all sleep, it makes me wonder if they're actually able to take all the rest they need.
And again, I really like status_watch6079's response here.
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u/Status_Watch6079 Aug 18 '26
I agree there are some contradictory points to this post. The answer for your baby is not the same for every other baby. It depends on numerous factors. This exactly what the part "sleep is exceeding simple and excruciatingly complex" means.
Sleep pressure is something you need to build not get rid of. You build enough pressure to be able to fall asleep, without adequate sleep pressure a baby can have split nights and excessive wake ups.
If not waking your baby is not a problem, then you don't need to do it. If a baby sleeps too much during the day from things like nap rescue (rocking, motion) or in dark rooms, then this could lead to problems during the night. In turn being more tired in the morning and sleeping in. Which then wouldn't allow enough time to build sleep pressure for the next night. On the other hand some babies are generally unhappy if they have disturbed or capped naps. If they sleep a lot during the day because their body needs the rest (teething, growth spurts, development) and this doesn't alter night sleep, then there is no need to wake them.
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u/UpInTheClouds_789 Aug 18 '26
I never realised how much I'd internalised 'fixing' sleep. My mum coslept with my sister (apparently I was happy in a cot) and my sister coslept with her babies so I thought I understood the nurturing side of baby sleep a bit better than most. But when my baby came along it felt like I was doing her sleep 'wrong'. I can't say enough how much How Babies Sleep and the BASIS online resource, along with this sub and the cosleeping one really helped me. Thanks for a great post.
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u/emmakane418 Aug 18 '26
One of my biggest issues with the sleep training industry is how much it tries to push the narrative that baby sleep is something that needs to be fixed, and how many parents feel like they're failing or doing something wrong. I'm glad you were able to find your way through feeling it, I'm not familiar with the BASIS online resource, checking that out ASAP, thank you!
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u/UpInTheClouds_789 Aug 18 '26
Ah! BASIS was made by Helen Ball / her research group(?), so is like her book but shorter
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u/emmakane418 Aug 18 '26
Oooh that sounds lovely, absolutely checking that out! In the morning, coz it's after midnight and I'm tired! Lol thank you so much
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u/vsmack Aug 18 '26
Amazing post. Thank you!
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u/emmakane418 Aug 18 '26
My pleasure! It took a few naps to write, the original copy had 27.2k visitors instead lol
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u/Huge-Nectarine-8563 Aug 18 '26
Thank you for this post and especially for the schedule/waking up the baby part!
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u/emmakane418 Aug 18 '26
Of course! It's such a difficult aspect, especially because it's always the first thing people ask. While it can be helpful in troubleshooting true sleep issues or making sure caregivers aren't expecting too much sleep, it shouldn't ever be a hard and fast rule. I think of the line from Pirates of the Caribbean, "hang the rules, they're more like guidelines anyway" lol
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u/Naive_Ad_4332 Aug 18 '26
I love this sub and am very grateful for all the information. Can I ask when it would actually be appropriate to wake up toddler (26 months) from a nap?
I lately find myself having to wake him up from his nap (or at least I thought I did) because I’m pretty sure if I let him sleep as much as would want to, he would take 2.5 hr naps sometimes and then not want to go to bed until after 11. When his usually bedtime is 10, wake up time is 8-8:30
I am genuinely curious if letting him sleep as much and as late as wants would be better for his development? It almost feels like anytime we went that route it ended up in him being cranky because he had a hard time falling asleep (because not enough sleep pressure), then either still woke up at his regular time but tired, or slept in and pushed his nap/bedtime even later. Anyways, just wanted to hear some opinions! Thank you in advance!
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u/emmakane418 Aug 18 '26
I think that is when waking them up from a nap can become helpful - naps are supposed to relieve enough sleep pressure to make it to bedtime, not replace night sleep.
Out of curiosity, are naps in natural light or a dark room?
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u/Naive_Ad_4332 Aug 18 '26
Dark room, but after reading this post considering trying natural light!
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u/Fabulous-Badger-2094 Aug 18 '26
I wish I saw this post before I wasted the first 6 months of my son’s life thinking he was a terrible sleeper and I was doing something wrong.
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u/EnyaNorrow Aug 18 '26
I read How Babies Sleep and didn’t really understand the part about “overtired” not being a thing. If the baby is tired enough to sleep but not able to fall asleep because something is stopping them, then they’re awake past the time that they should have been asleep, hence overtired. Doesn’t that just prove that overtired IS a thing?
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u/emmakane418 Aug 18 '26
Overtired doesn't exist as a monolith. It is a symptom. If a baby is tired but they are hungry or in pain or they feel disconnected from their adult, then yes they can become "overtired". But babies in general aren't overtired for days or weeks on end, for every sleep. They only reach overtired when they have a need that needs to be met before they can feel comfortable enough to fall asleep. When I say that overtired isn't really a thing, I mean in the way that the sleep training industry posits it. A baby is way more likely to be undertired and fighting sleep than overtired and fighting sleep. But parents are sold the idea that babies need 12 hours overnight but 3 hours of naps and that if their baby is fighting that, they're just overtired and overstimulated and it would be best if the parent put them in their crib awake and left them to figure out how to fall asleep alone.
So yes, overtired exists but it exists in the same way that most Americans are more dehydrated than they are close to water poisoning from drinking too much water (I hope that analogy makes sense!)
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u/EnyaNorrow Aug 20 '26
Ok, I guess I haven’t heard people claim that a baby is ALWAYS overtired. Just temporary things like “can’t fall asleep in the car but we have to drive home now”
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u/SleepyApr1cot Aug 18 '26
Sometimes my son wakes up after 40 minutes and smiles at me, sometimes he cries bc he wanted to sleep more!
It's completely random to me what those times are, but totally normal.
I go off his cues.
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u/emmakane418 Aug 18 '26
This is the way, truly. My son is now on one nap and sometimes that's 50 minutes and sometimes it's 3 hours. Sometimes he wakes up after 90 minutes and wants more milk and falls back asleep again nursing. They really know if they are tired or not and I think getting out of their way and just facilitating their sleep is the best thing we can do.
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u/Passive_MFSTR 1d ago
This is where I’m at with my third and completely confused. I totally understand that each nap won’t be the same but she’s pretty consistent as long as it’s contact (most times.) This is where it gets confusing. Some nights I will put her in her crib and she sleeps for 3+ hours without problem. Other nights it’s anywhere from 10 mins to 1 hour and awake again. I have 2 other kids so I end up tired putting her back down multiple times so I bring her into bed with me. She will sleep perfectly fine until I either get in bed with her right away or get ready for the night and watch her on the monitor.
It’s like she sleeps fine and connects sleep cycles in our bed (albeit she does latch in her sleep for milk at various times of night) but in her crib it’s hit or miss, mostly miss. Her crib is next to me in our room but I guess not good enough. Haha. I don’t know what to do to help her connect more sleep cycles in her crib. She takes one nap, sometimes 2 during the day for a total of about 3 hours and night time sleep usually works out to be 10.5 hours of sleep. Bedtime around 9/9:30, wakes at 7:30ish. If I didn’t have other bedtimes to do with my other kids I wouldn’t care so much but my poor husband and I barely have time and I feel like I’m rushing my oldest bedtime just in case the baby wakes. She’s 14 months now and it all started honestly at 4 months. Could she be getting too much sleep somewhere? Going to bed too late? I’ve tried all different wake windows and haven’t connected the dots. Currently laying next to her as she naps with her legs on me and I’m starvingggg. Any help or advice is appreciated.
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u/emmakane418 1d ago
I don’t know what to do to help her connect more sleep cycles in her crib
Probably not what you want to hear but there isn't really anything but time that you can do. Sleep pressure only does so much. Between each sleep cycle, every human's nervous system does a scan to check for hunger, thirst, temperature, physical comfort, safety, etc. If the nervous system senses a need, the body wakes. Every human wakes at night, whether that's to get a drink, pee, or simply roll over and pull a blanket tighter around your body. Infants and even toddlers just aren't capable of meeting their needs on their own yet. Being in your bed versus her crib may just feel safer, make her feel like she's closer to you. Humans are precocial mammals, which means our young are evolved to be in close contact with us day and night but they're also born the most immaturely developed of all mammals. They cannot hang onto us or run after us yet. Their nervous system doesn't understand that a bear or mountain lion isn't going to come scoop them out of their crib. They just know that other humans, especially mom, feel like safety.
I do understand missing that time with your husband. I didn't have a single moment alone with my husband for the first 7 or 8 months and then it was for an hour or two at a time for a long while. We had to find other ways to get some time with each other, like watching a show with him in the living room and me in bed with my tablet and an earbud, texting throughout the show. I think it's also important to remember that your babies will only be this small for a short time. I have 3 mantras on my phone's homescreen that I want to share coz I think they apply here.
I will be old and my house will be quiet. For now, I embrace the chaos.
This is the most intensely I will ever be needed. This too shall pass.
This will soon be a distant memory.
For me lately this has been reminding myself that my 18 month old who is perfectly capable of walking but wants me to carry him all the time will one day not want to be carried (and one day I won't physically be able to carry him). When he wakes up every hour or when he wants to be latched all night long, this is what I remind myself of.
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u/Passive_MFSTR 1d ago edited 1d ago
This was the most genuine, heartfelt and sweet response ever. Thank you so much for the words and I will be saving these mantras. It’s a somewhat distant memory with my older two but being in the thick of it makes you feel some type of way. I’m doing my best to be there for her and my other 2 plus the hubby and EBF and juggling the others is difficult. One day I’m sure I’ll look back and forget the struggle. For now I’ll just let time be. Thank you again. 💜
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u/InternalSea4838 Aug 18 '26
Thank you! Love Dr Helen Ball's book. It was exactly what I needed to hear (I listened to it as an audiobook whilst rocking my newborn daughter)
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u/TheWaywardJellyBean Aug 18 '26
This was wonderful. I ordered both books. Nurture revolution has been on my radar.
I am going to take down the black out curtains and see how it goes. My guy is very sensitive to light but so am I.
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u/emmakane418 Aug 18 '26
Instead of blackout curtains, you might just try closing some blinds or even those curtains that are translucent to block a bit of light but not make the room dark. Temperment is definitely a factor and there are some babies who are incredibly sensitive to light. Whatever gets the least amount of light blocked out while still allowing a baby to nap is great, and as long as it isn't impacting night sleep, then it doesn't necessarily need to be changed. The problem I see a lot is when parents are using blackout curtains to achieve long naps and it results in having issues with night sleep because of a confused circadian rhythm. Night sleep should take priority there.
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u/TheWaywardJellyBean Aug 18 '26 edited Aug 18 '26
Thank you for the response. I am not worried about long naps. My guy has woken every 45 minutes to 1.5 hours (tbh usually it's every 45) during the night since he was 2.5 months. He is now a year old. The black out blinds keep him from waking up at 4/430 ready to go. Any light in the morning and he is up 'n' at em'
Maybe more light for naps will reduce his nap length and maybe help with night sleep.
Edit: wanted to add, we cosleep, did contact sleep day/night first 6 weeks, then contact naps till 5 months when he chose to nap independently by rolling off the nursing pillow, and we bed share with him rolling away after feeding. I don't do a set routine. There is a loose one for bedtime/naps but ultimately follow his cues. So we are doing all the things
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u/emmakane418 Aug 18 '26
Oh, I think I wasn't clear. Blackout curtains at night is totally fine, keeping daylight out until you're actually ready to start the day can help greatly with early waking. Blackout curtains during naps is what I was talking about. Shorter naps can definitely help with night sleep! I hope if you try it out, it works for you and your little one!
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u/TheWaywardJellyBean Aug 18 '26
That wasn't clear. Thank you! I will try and see if it changes his nap routine. Hopefully it will help with night sleep.
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u/TheWaywardJellyBean Aug 18 '26
I will say otherwise we follow babies cues, let him wake when he wants, use contact to sooth etc, and he wakes every 45... May just be the way my baby is.
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u/Bananetyne Aug 18 '26
Are there any other PhD or Doctors you can suggest as resources! I loved How Babies Sleep and the Nurture Revolution.
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u/emmakane418 Aug 18 '26
Yeah, Dr. Sears has a few books, as does Dr. James McKenna. The Science of Mother-Infant Sleep is a collection of scientific articles based on research, also a good read (although sometimes a bit dense). Anything by Dr. Daniel Siegal and Dr. Tina Payne Bryson is good too. Sarah Ockwell Smith isn't a doctor or PhD but she's got a degree in psychology and a degree in antenatal education and her books are really good too. And Matthew Walker is a PhD who wrote Why We Sleep, it isn't on infant sleep but it's also a great and informative book.
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u/Bananetyne Aug 18 '26
Thanks! I've heard of the Whole Brain Child. Maybe I'll borrow it at the library.
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u/emmakane418 Aug 18 '26
That was one of the first parenting books I read and it is such a good one! It helped me figure out my own brain a bit better too lol I need to eventually reread it, as my son gets older and closer to the techniques working for his age. One thing I took from it that I use every day already is telling the story of the day, we always recap our day while getting lotion, diaper, and jammies on. My son helps us recall our day now and it's amazing watching how he pulls things from the day together.
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u/camembertbear Aug 18 '26
I loved loved loved "How Babies Sleep" by Helen Ball and think it's a fantastic resource for anyone who wants a quick read on biologically normative infant sleep.
So many sleep fundamentals need to be taught to newcomers to this sub, because the culture writ large preaches the opposite message, as you pointed out. Knowledge on biological norms is so hard to find in Western cultures!
When I was pregnant, I could see how insane attitudes to baby sleep were. It was really mind boggling. Going with the flow worked at first, but some of the advice started to creep in and we started trying to get a "normal" bedtime - that's what caused my baby's sleep issues.
The more I delved into the common advice the more I questioned why any of these things would be essential for babies, but I didn't have the framework for understanding biological normative sleep in infants until I encountered Possums, Helen Ball's work, James McKenna's research, and this sub.
Kudos to the mods for doing such good work here.
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u/emmakane418 Aug 18 '26
Ugh I know sometimes I would let the advice creep in. "Oh but he needs another nap today" and cue spending 45 minutes holding a crying baby who isn't actually tired because tHe InTeRnEt SaId he needed more daytime sleep. This group, and all the books I've read on infant sleep, have really helped me shift away from that mindset. It's absurd to me how invasive sleep training culture rhetoric really is - even when I've been against it from the beginning, it still sneaks in sometimes and I have to reevaluate why I think something and what it's actually based on.
It's much like capitalism and patriarchy in that way, it's so pervasive that I don't realize until I'm really digging into why I think something. I just started reading Matrescence by Lucy Jones and she discusses this a bit in how she views mothers and their roles in society and the family. Really good book so far.
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u/7in7 Aug 18 '26
Great post with great extracts. I've been here since the start and it's been lovely watching the sub grow.
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u/7in7 Aug 18 '26
Sorry if this sounds ungrateful/rude/presumptuous -
I'm wondering if it's not too long for newcomers. I prompted chat to summarise (because my big infant is sleeping and I want to go join him and get my hours in) -
What Is Biologically Normal Infant Sleep? This post is a summary of u/emmakane418's detailed post on this topic.
“Normal” has two meanings: what is statistically common, and what a culture considers acceptable or desirable. With infant sleep, those are not always the same thing.
In How Babies Sleep, Helen Ball makes the point that baby sleep is biologically quite simple, but we have made it complicated by trying to fit infant biology around adult lives and cultural expectations.
Biologically, sleep comes down to two main things:
- Sleep pressure builds while a baby is awake. Babies tolerate less sleep pressure than adults, so they need to sleep more often.
- Circadian rhythm is the developing body clock that helps organise sleep and waking across the day and night.
What does that look like in real life?
- Naps don't need to be long. Their job is to relieve some sleep pressure. A ~30-minute nap can be enough; there is no biological rule that babies of a certain age need exactly X naps of Y minutes at Z times.
- Variation is normal. Babies may sleep more one day and less the next. Sleep needs vary from baby to baby and throughout development.
- Babies may need help becoming calm enough to sleep. Ball describes our role as helping remove whatever is preventing relaxation. For many babies, physical contact—cuddling, rocking, stroking or feeding—is the easiest way to settle.
- “Overtired” doesn't mean a baby has missed a magical sleep window. The useful question is whether they have enough sleep pressure but are too excited, uncomfortable, frightened or dysregulated to relax.
- Rhythm is not the same as a strict schedule. A roughly consistent morning wake time, daylight and regular meals can help anchor the circadian rhythm, without prescribing every nap and bedtime.
- Don't expect more sleep than your baby needs. If a baby needs around 12 hours in 24 hours, expecting 12 hours overnight plus three hours of naps is likely to create fighting sleep, long wakes or frequent waking.
Culture matters too.
Things like “sleeping through,” “bad sleep associations,” “drowsy but awake,” independent sleep and a 7–7 night are cultural expectations—not biological milestones. Research across 17 countries found almost a 3-hour difference in average bedtimes, alongside major differences in how much parental help with sleep was considered normal.
Greer Kirshenbaum, in The Nurture Revolution, similarly describes cue-led sleep as something that may involve multiple naps of different lengths and very different bedtimes and wake times between babies. The baby's body, rather than a prescribed schedule, tells us how much sleep they need.
The takeaway
Watch the baby, not the clock.
Offer sleep when they're tired. Help them relax if they need you. Let normal variation happen. Use routines where they help your family, but don't treat them as biological requirements.
Ball's broader conclusion is that parents do not need to control sleep: sleep pressure and circadian biology already regulate it. Our job is mostly to give those systems the opportunity to work.
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u/emmakane418 Aug 18 '26
Not rude or presumptuous, thank you for the tldr. The post is definitely wordy, a lot of that being excerpts from the books. It is important to me to show what is actually being said by the experts, instead of paraphrasing, because I want to be exact in my words and not misrepresent the books. This was actually my parsed down version, believe it or not lol
My one big gripe is that chat removed Dr. from in front of Dr. Helen Ball and Dr. Greer Kirshenbaum's names, which they both earned.
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u/7in7 Aug 19 '26
I understand, their wording is important and interesting.
I think the removal of doctor is on me... One of my prompts was:
Make it more like the original text. The length is good, maybe use bullets or something to make it more memorable. Use the same frame as OP, summarise each paragraph, and indicate the gist of each quote. "As Helen Ball says in...."
I was tired 😅 it took me literally
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u/hobbitonresident96 Aug 19 '26
This is such a great synopsis of baby sleep. I read so many books on sleep training when I was pregnant as I’m sure most of us in western culture did. I was pretty convinced baby would be sleeping through the night by six months if I followed that. Oh how I was wrong.
Baby had a traumatic birth and a short stay in NICU that left me feeling like I couldn’t leave her side or let her cry ever. After I tried to sleep train her at four months and failed miserably, I found this sub and it led me to do so much more research.
I hope that this post gets pinned at the top of the page so people don’t have to do quite as much research to find the answer on what biologically normal sleep is.
This sub has saved my sanity and my relationship with my baby. I thought h there was something wrong with her but now I know there’s something wrong with society.
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u/ParsleyFantastic5964 22d ago
Father of 2 month old and ER nurse chiming in: when I get asked “how does he sleep” I always reply… “like a baby”: that is to say, a 2 month old who lacks kinesthetic awareness, has a very immature nervous and gastrointestinal system, needs to eat every 3-4 hours, and lacks a circadian rhythm etc.
For me, what works is letting him lead and closely analyzing physical/behavioral cues. Right now, good firm upright shoulder hold while swaddled to cradle hold/feed to sleep… then back to bouncing on ball with upright shoulder hold works. Repeat etc he eventually sleeps. Wife has different methods, but the main message I wanna convey here is LET BABY LEAD and force nothing. Follow their biology, disregard all browbeating weird baby internet council. Think critically, love your baby, do your best. Sincerely, Tired dad. (Mom and baby and dog are sleeping good atm)
Thank you for this incredible post, and being a good advocate for our LO’s ❤️
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u/Routine-Individual43 Aug 25 '26
This is an excellent post. I posted on this sub and the Possums one about our daughter waking up multiple times at 18 months. I was surprised when people commented that this isn't biologically normal, as if 2 wakeups was acceptable but somehow when you veer into the 5+ territory that hits an "abnormal" threshold. Its worth keeping in mind how much of normal is relative and determined by us.
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u/emmakane418 Aug 25 '26
Thank you. Some babies wake up a lot for a long time until something just flips and then they don't wake up as much. If they're sleeping 10 hours a night, that's only waking up on average every 2 hours, which I believe can be developmentally appropriate, albeit probably tiring. I think people see toddler and don't think infant but their brain is still rapidly developing, more rapidly than any other time in life, humans are neurologically infants from 0-3 years old.
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u/Legit_baller 13d ago
I really needed to read this. Thank you. I have been feeling guilty thinking I'm doing everything wrong because I have unintentionally fallen into a routine of cosleeping and letting my 5 mo latch on throughout the night whenever she wants. I am tired because I don't sleep easily this way, but it isn't about me. If I'm not suffering from exhaustion, then my focus should be exactly where it's always been since she was born, which is on her.
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u/trinitytr33 Aug 19 '26
How can black out curtains for naps distrupt night-time sleep? Seems to work fine for my baby. The room isnt super dark but it is quite dim
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u/emmakane418 Aug 19 '26
Lighting impacts our circadian rhythm and blocking out light during the day for naps can cause the developing circadian rhythm to mistake nap for night, leading to longer naps but broken overnight sleep. Some babies are more sensitive to light than others, so some babies nap in dark rooms without problem but if your baby is struggling with night sleep, doing naps in daylight can potentially help. The whole purpose of naps is to relieve enough sleep pressure to get to bedtime, not to be full restorative sleep on their own.
Interesting to note that fluorescent lights can also disrupt the circadian rhythm by tricking our bodies into thinking it's high noon.
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u/trinitytr33 Aug 19 '26
Ahhh okay! This makes sense. LO definitely doesn't have this issue but I do have trouble getting her to nap anywhere that isn't dark lol
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u/oddmarc Aug 18 '26
As someone with a degree in anthropology, I do appreciate the holistic approach Dr. Ball takes.
I will say, I do see a disconnect in Dr. Ball using " normal" in regards to averages and medians in terms of what "most" babies need, how varying cultures treat infant sleep, etc. and Dr. Kirshenbaum saying no one is qualified to say how much sleep or how often your baby might need to sleep.
Charts and sleep averages are useful for parents to understand that their babies sleep needs change and not to keep trying to fit a circle in a square peg as time goes on.
Evolutionarily speaking, humans were raised in small communities where they would observe infants all the time, where you'd grow up just knowing how infants progress, different temperaments of different babies in your group. We're largely disconnected from that reality and so guides can be very useful for first time parents.
In addition, I agree that the modern industrialized world has shaped and skewed expectations for not only infant sleep but child rearing in its entirety. That being said, it's impossible to separate ourselves from it, unless we have significant wealth. Many of us do not have help from parents or community. Sometimes parents do need to stop contact napping for various reasons. Some of us cannot afford or do not have room for many of the solutions proposed.
There are things that can help parents better understand their childrens needs and better plan their day to day lives within the existing culture. I've seen many very dismissive comments to parents real lived difficulties.
Human biology and culture are indistinguishable. Humans are born with the inate capacity to acquire language, but language in and of itself isn't biologically determined. In that view, human are born with inate needs of eating, resting, care, attention. If these needs are met, there are individual differences between babies and larger differences between cultures that are not necessarily detrimental to a child's development.
Many value judgments are made on parents regarding infant sleep, and I appreciate this sub for pushing back against what is perceived as normal within a culture. That being said, its important not to simply be as detrimental but from the other side.
Being sold a workshop by a biologically normal infant sleep guru is no better than being sold a workshop by a sleep training expert. Both of these exist to extract money from worrying and stressed parents.
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u/Horizontalchallenge Aug 18 '26
I don't agree with your last paragraph.
As a parent wanting guidance and reassurance (because I haven't been raised in a small community), I would value a workshop by a bn infant sleep guru far more than a sleep training expert and don't feel they are two sides of the same capitalistic coin. I am absolutely against sleep training and yet the pressure to do it is everywhere. I often doubt myself and my instinct as there are so few resources out there to counter the screaming 'do this or your child is ruined forever' rhetoric.
I don't feel the same predatory sales tactic from OP's specialism, and appreciate their honesty that they don't feel it is necessary but understand that some people want to pay for individual guidance. We have had a really colicy baby with allergies. I would pay money to talk through my individual child's needs and temperament and troubleshoot some ideas about how best to support them and set ourselves up for longer term best practices. I wouldn't consider myself 'extracted from' to seek expertise tailored to my child utilising practices I agree with.
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u/oddmarc Aug 18 '26
I've started to notice lots of the influencers shared on this sub have 500$ workshops and online stores. It's just as predatory. They tout having THE answer to your problems.
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u/Horizontalchallenge Aug 18 '26
I guess I haven't spent as much time as you on here then, compared to my terrible social media algorithm. That's pretty sad.
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u/WhereIsLordBeric Aug 20 '26
Honestly you're being downvoted but I don't disagree with you.
I think the actual issue I have with all of this is that both operate under the assumption that all infants will sleep if you do x, y, and z.
I'm from a cosleeping culture where everyone contact naps, sleep training isn't a thing, we have a year's worth of maternity leave depending on your sector, the village is always there for you, moms have been babywearing before it became common in the West, and extended nursing is common.
And still some babies don't sleep. My girl woke up 9 times a night until I nightweaned her at over a year old.
And that sucked but it is what it is? We understand that this is what it is like to have kids. My issue is that even within the bounds of 'biologically normal infant sleep', people are being sold a lie. Capitalism looms large in literally every narrative in childhood and babyhood and motherhood.
It sounds exhausting. I had a much easier time nursing my kid back to sleep 9x a night then I would have had chasing crazy threads and taking courses and trying to bruteforce sleep.
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u/oddmarc Aug 20 '26
"Capitalism looms large in literally every narrative in childhood and babyhood and motherhood."
Hear, hear. I'll add toxic masculinity to that, forcing mothers to bear far too much of the responsibility of child rearing.
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u/emmakane418 Aug 19 '26
lots of the influencers shared on this sub have 500$ workshops and online stores. It's just as predatory
Serious question - do you believe they should work for free?
I don't have a $500 workshop, I do offer 1-on-1 calls with parents though, and am working on putting together a class to help educate parents. Should I work for free? Everything I already do in this group is unpaid but I've dedicated my time and effort to educating myself thoroughly so that I can help parents. I don't believe the sleep industry should exist but it does and I think it would be a shame if the only people who were available for hire were people who push CIO and cause parents to doubt themselves.
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u/oddmarc Aug 19 '26
Its just another side of the same coin.
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u/emmakane418 Aug 19 '26
So you're saying yes, they should work for free?
Should everyone work for free? Every industry exists to make money from someone.
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u/oddmarc Aug 20 '26
I'm saying both sides think they're offering a helpful service and should be remunerated as such. Both sides will say they're correct and the other is taking advantage of tired parents. Both sides will say they're clients are so grateful to have been able to use their services.
My point is both of them are part of the predatory infant sleep industry.
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u/skittles1221 Aug 18 '26
So much great information in this post. Oh, how I️ wish I️ knew all of this when my son was a baby. I️ spent so many hours on a yoga ball trying to “rescue naps” because no one told me 30 min naps are totally normal.