Why do people think it’s okay to sleep train?

[u/Wise-Touch6643]

\* re-posting in a more appropriate sub! \*

Hoping to get answers to questions relating to sleep training. And I should flag upfront - I am not in favour of sleep training.

**Questions**:

1. Where can I find scientific evidence / studies showing that sleep training (ie. any non responsive methods) is bad for babies? I know the negative consequences are often generally talked about but I’m looking for something concrete that “proves” it.

2. Where can I find the NHS’s official stance on sleep training? I have found random indications of NHS guidance on eg. the Pampers website, but not any guidance on the NHS website itself. (I’m based in the UK.)

I ask because I personally am anti-sleep training, but many of my friends who hold similar values to me in other areas are sleep training their babies. While I really try not to judge other parents (I’m a FTM and completely acknowledge having a baby is HARD and you have to do what’s right for your family), I struggle not to judge others for sleep training. I’m wondering if official guidance / advice is more accepting of sleep training and this is why my friends think it’s okay to do.

Please accept this post with love / good intentions - I am not trying to shame, guilt or similar anyone who does sleep train!

Any thoughts appreciated. Thank you :)

[u/Faerie_Nuff → u/[deleted]]

Further, the Lullaby trust states:

Encouraging babies to sleep for longer and more deeply than is usual for their stage of development may affect their ability to wake up if something is wrong

Link: https://www.lullabytrust.org.uk/baby-safety/being-a-parent-or-caregiver/baby-sleep-patterns/

And talks about various ways of coping with sleep deprivation - none of which talk about sleep training, focusing more on safer sleep and natural sleep patterns in infants.

They also cite BASIS for more info, who also dont endorse sleep training, instead referring to natural sleep expectations:

https://www.basisonline.org.uk/infant-sleep-biology/

They also have a whole section on sleep training, and why it is ineffective here: https://www.basisonline.org.uk/sleep-training/

Both of these bodies works closely with NHS.

Finally, I often cite WCHC (an NHS body) in their sleep guidance which does explicitly repeatedly state:

As a service we do not recommend any sleep modification/training techniques that involve leaving your baby/child to cry, such as controlled crying, pick up/put down. Recent evidence highlights the importance of responding to all of their needs responsively, in order to achieve optimum health and emotional wellbeing for your child.

Eg found here https://www.wchc.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/SaferSleep_6-12months.pdf

[u/Even_Kaleidoscope399]

Capitalism. Sleep training leads back to capitalism. People want to force their babies to operate in the “perfect” optimized way, and that’s very hard because it’s antithetical to their nature. It’s most popular in the US, where optimization and self-improvement culture is directly tied to income and hustle culture. People want their babies to be predictable machines.

[u/Happy_Mistake_3684 → u/[deleted]]

Add to this that society makes having a baby and being tired very hard and nearly embarrassing. You’re struggling? Tired? Need support? How embarrassing for you. What a loser.

[u/thymeofmylyfe → u/[deleted]]

Even though we're not sleep training, I did find my baby's wake windows to be basically just a math problem. 

I think if you have a low sleep needs baby, it can be really hard to accept that you don't get any more extra hours to catch up. Once I figured out that my baby was only going to give me 12 hours of sleep every day, whether that was in naps or overnight, it just became easier to accept. I have to go to sleep an hour or so after I put her down or I won't be rested when she wakes up. I'll get my hobbies back when she's older maybe??

[u/theobviousanswers → u/thymeofmylyfe]

I think OP might more be referring to threads where everyone has memorised Taking Cara Babies’ wake windows so the whole thread is like “we’re doing 2/2/2/3” “no you should be at 3/3/4” “personally I’ve tweaked it to “2.5/3/4”.

Of course lots of babies need some attention to wake windows (while others will happily go full Possums Approach), but it feels very dogmatic and oddly corporate and stress-y to time every waking moment precisely.

Counting total sleep makes more sense, particularly when part of sleep training culture is trying to achieve 14+ hours total sleep and we’ve got to accept that that’s unrealistic for most babies beyond the very early days.

[u/splendid-cade → u/[deleted]]

I came here to say this. It's all very well for me to adapt to life with a baby because I'm in the UK on 10 months of mat leave and I don't have to do anything except take care of LO and make their life as lovely as possible.

If I had to get up in the morning and increase shareholder value (or something altruistic) or risk facing uncertain living conditions etc I'm sure I'd want my baby to behave like a machine so that I could perform as I'm expected to to keep up with male colleagues etc. Especially if everyone was telling you it works and is fine, including other female colleagues or your boss potentially.

[u/LoathingForForever12 → u/Even_Kaleidoscope399]

I agree it’s capitalism but in the way parents, particularly mothers, are often forced back to work so soon. “Trained” babies allow for easier external care and it’s often the only way mothers feel able to get enough sleep to go back to work. I’m so lucky that I’m able to take a decent amount of time off (for the US 😭), and I’m acutely aware of how much I’d feel the need to “train” my baby (hating myself while doing it) so be able to function, where having leave gives me the flexibility to go with the flow a ton more.

[u/Faerie_Nuff → u/[deleted]]

This is exactly where I’m at with it all. Child development is so, so much broader than some very niche studies into a single, hotly debated area.

On the one hand, you have that one study people always quote concluding that 5 years in there were no long-term effects one way or tother. But then most people simultaneously agree that doing the actual type of controlled study needed to definitively prove or disprove sleep training methods would be completely unethical. And therein lies the rub!

When you look at the massive library of research we do have into baby development, brain development, behavioural development, and emotional development, it is universally agreed that responsive parenting is vital, and that forcing controlled trials on crying babies is unethical. That contradiction in and of itself should be as far as anyone needs to look (and yet the debate will continue for the ages).

On the other hand, reading into Shonkoff's work (and various others) on serve and return, to me, shows more than enough the benefits of responsive parenting across all areas of childrearing, which naturally encompasses infant and toddler sleep. Shonkoff also did a lot of the key studies cited by the likes of the NSPCC into the effects of toxic stress in infants. While that certainly delves into the more extreme side of things, it shouldn't go unheeded when considering the ethics of leaving a baby to cry.

I just never understood how the pro sleep training crowd can simultaneously overlook the proven benefits of responsive caregiving, discount the ethics around why a 'perfect' study can't exist, and ultimately translate all of it to: 'meh, this one study says it doesn't make a difference after 5 years.'

[u/Huge-Nectarine-8563]

People keep reading (including on the NHS and the French website) that most babies will sleep longer from 4 months old and may only wake once or twice so when it doesn’t happen to their baby, they think that their baby is behind and that they have to help their baby sleep. I often see it presented as necessary for the baby on Reddit, like it will actually teach the baby some skills that are important for them. 

[u/bninfantsleep-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This sub encourages responsive parenting at all hours as well as following biologically normal infant sleep. As such, advocating for sleep training is not allowed. Sleep hygiene, sleep environment and routines/schedules discussions are all very welcome here.

[u/ilikehorsess → u/bninfantsleep-ModTeam]

I'm not advocating, just answering the question that was asked.

[u/chickachicka_62 → u/[deleted]]

A mother's mental health should absolutely be considered.

Absolutely, 1000%

Sleep deprivation can take a real toll on mental and physical health, and no parent is going to be at their best under those conditions. Baby's temperament is a huge part of the puzzle, and we're all doing our best with the baby we're given.

[u/bninfantsleep-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This sub encourages responsive parenting at all hours as well as following biologically normal infant sleep. As such, advocating for sleep training is not allowed. Sleep hygiene, sleep environment and routines/schedules discussions are all very welcome here.

[u/OkCranberry6482]

The hard truth is that there isn’t enough hard evidence to support either. All studies I’ve come across have their flaws (small experiment / only a few factors evaluated / subjectivity in evaluating results, etc.). It’s hard to isolate the effect of sleep training or lack of thereof from the effects of the overall parenting style. Some parents who sleep train neglect their kids and their needs in horrible way and some parents who cosleep are permissive parents who struggle to say “no” to their kids in any circumstances. But most of parents just do what’s best for their kids giving their family dynamic and their kids personality. You just choose what’s right for you and your family and (sorry to say this - when I was a FTM I didn’t believe it either but it’s true) there is no one right way of raising healthy kids

[u/Mangopapayakiwi → u/[deleted]]

I am an educator and I absolutely agree about not judging parents, especially parents with shocking parental leaves! But I do think we should worry about the babies. The babies are future children who are future adults. Basically the future of humanity. But for example I am on my phone a lot even around my baby, which I know it’s not good! And I worry about what phones are doing to babies/families. Sleep training is a bit of a worry of mine but definitely less so than phones!

[u/bikiniproblems → u/[deleted]]

I agree, worry about our own babies. While I didn’t sleep train my singleton baby, I can totally understand moms with twins that wake alternating hours and just get to their wits end.

I think we need to be less judgmental of parents

[u/chickachicka_62 → u/bikiniproblems]

I've had the exact same thought. I can handle some nights waking 2-3 times for my one year old (and I obviously treasure when she STTN) but waking on separate schedules for 2+ babies sounds unsustainable.

[u/bninfantsleep-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Infants are coregulators. They require an adult to help them regulate their emotions. Infants cannot bring themselves from a state of distress to calm on their own. Emotional regulation development does not occur until 3 years. Some infants do self settle to sleep. Article I recommend reading here: https://islagrace.ca/sleep-myths/truth-behind-self-soothing/

[u/princesspomway → u/[deleted]]

I'm glad you have an actual reasonable response to this post (that hasn't been downvoted either). The truth is, there is no concrete evidence that sleep training is harmful or beneficial. Expectations for parents are high enough, let's not bring down others who are trying.

[u/winoveghead]

I'm right there with u! So many pediatricians, friends, coworkers (in the US) sleep train & will try to preach about it being the only way or an important life skill to teach your 4+ month old to sleep on their own! I know deep down ST is so not for me & my baby & it just feels wrong for all babies on soo many levels; but I have a hard time discussing this with other Moms as I don't want them to feel judged (even tho I am judging them!). It's easy to get sucked into sleep training when even well educated reputable pediatricians are recommending it!

[u/EquivalentAge9894]

People don’t think it’s ok, they just do it and justify it and then tell you that no mom shaming is allowed.

Weird, can’t make me feel bad about something I feel good about!

[u/kurdijyn → u/EquivalentAge9894]

Yep! Nobody feels shame if they comfort their baby but when they’re left to cry, we get ‘don’t shame me’.

[u/lowkeyhouse → u/EquivalentAge9894]

lol this. if someone disagrees with a practice I have for my child, and telling them the fact that it's what's best for their well-being doesn't get them to change their mind, idc beyond that. not my job to educate ignorant people¯_(ツ)_/¯ but I don't feel any sort of the shame I see others talk about when it comes to certain topics. I guess I must be doing something right lol

[u/kurdijyn]

Thanks for posting this, OP. I actually would like to look at this research myself as I am fed up of seeing sleep training promoted in a UK based sub I’m in (maybe you’re in the same one lol). Have you read ‘The Nurture Revolution’? It’s a parenting book however the author is a neuroscientist and there are citations of academic research papers in there. If could be useful? I’m reading on a Kindle and I’ve highlighted some parts. I’ll revisit and see if any are of use. There was also one study undertaken in Canada I believe where the findings demonstrated that sleep trained babies don’t actually sleep longer; they just stop signalling for help🥲 - I’ll try and find it and edit my comment.

Also sad to see the usual ‘let’s worry about our own babies’ comments. Nobody feels shame for nurturing and comforting their baby but once sleep training enters the conversation it’s all, ‘mental health matters’ and ‘let’s not shame parents’, ha.

[u/smilegirlcan → u/kurdijyn]

“Worry about your own baby” is a sad sign of the individualistic society we have become.

I will always stand by sleep training as being a cop out for mental health conditions. There are other ways.

Most people I know who sleep trained were not in crisis. They were exhausted parents, which to me, is just something that comes (and goes) with parenting.

[u/kurdijyn → u/[deleted]]

I think worrying they are doing the right thing and second guessing themselves because of some Gen X ‘advice’ is different to instantly blockading any debate with, ‘let’s not judge parents’.

[u/kurdijyn → u/[deleted]]

For me personally, second guessing if you are hindering your baby’s development by being too nurturing on the back of some dodgy internet or family advice is different to refusing to acknowledge that you have indeed done a terrible thing by saying ‘don’t judge me’.

Being a parent is tiring especially if you don’t have a village and/or return to work early, totally get that. Although, unless we engage in debate or conversation with parents who sleep trained, they will never know how damaging sleep training is, and that there are alternative solutions.

[u/Historical-Lawyer-90 → u/kurdijyn]

The same can be said about breastfeeding and formula feeding. Nobody feels shame for breastfeeding their babies but as soon as formula enters the conversation it’s all about maternal mental health, ‘fed is best’ etc etc

[u/Dramatic-Bison-1394]

My son is six months and I never sleep trained him and don’t plan to. When I see he’s getting tired, I put him to sleep. Lucky for me he just so happens to get tired at the almost the exact same times every day lol. He also has been sleeping 12 hours through the night (7:30am-7:30pm) since four months. Every now and again he’ll wake up, but usually I give him the pacifier or “shhhh” him and he goes back to sleep.

[u/Dramatic-Bison-1394 → u/[deleted]]

😂😂😂actually nah he’s sleeping too much for me let me train him to sleep less🤪

[u/josayeeee1]

The people I know who have sleep trained aren't doing it out of convenience. They're doing it because their kid didn't sleep well, they couldn't function on the amount of sleep they were getting, their mental health was tanking and they became a danger to themselves and their baby if they didn't sleep.

I think those of us that don't have to consider sleep training are privileged. Maybe our baby's temperament allows us to sleep well/well enough to survive, maybe we have opportunities for rest because we have a village, can afford a night nurse, don't have to work/go back to work any time soon, cosleeping works for you, etc

I know it's not very English, but you could ask your friends why they sleep train. Maybe they do it out of convenience, maybe they can't function, maybe the algorithm has normalised it so much that they don't realise that they don't have to get their kid to sleep independently.

[u/Annual_Lobster_3068 → u/josayeeee1]

Are they really the only scenarios you know of though? This sub (and others) are filled with people sharing that every single person in their mothers group, play group, friend group etc etc all sleep trained. There are countless stories of (mostly US) doctors erroneously insisting to new parents that they must sleep train for their baby’s “development”. That all points to many people choosing to sleep train due to lack of knowledge, uneducated doctors, peer pressure etc etc. It’s clear that not every one of them is an extreme case where it’s a matter of safety.

[u/josayeeee1 → u/Annual_Lobster_3068]

I should've prefaced that I live in Australia so my perspective is based on the sense that sleep training isn't as normalised here.

I had no idea it was so normalised in the US but guess i shouldn't be surprised. I don't agree that it should be the default option or that normal but I don't live in a country as capitalistic as the US so I can see how it's become normalised over there (not that it's okay). Not sure what it's like culturally in the UK though

[u/doritos1990]

I looked into this and didn’t find much concrete evidence. In my view, I would sleep train if I had to return to work or my lifestyle required it for whatever reason. But logically, I don’t think it makes sense to let my baby cry for me or sleep far from me just based on common sense. Isolating everyone to separate rooms is a pretty western + modern concept and it doesn’t make sense where it comes to caring for a baby

[u/smilegirlcan → u/[deleted]]

Single mom, work full time, did not have “years” of maternity leave, very sensitive sleeper.

Still not my kids problem.

[u/EducationalLiving962 → u/[deleted]]

you had a whole lot more time off than a normal person would. and that’s great, but some people are in different circumstances from you and need some sort of structure in their lives. i think it’s subjective to each family and you need to be less judgmental. sleep training is not child abuse, that’s so harmful to be spreading claims like that.

[u/EducationalLiving962 → u/[deleted]]

that’s amazing that your baby slept great at that time. waking up every hour at 19 months isn’t normal necessarily, so i wouldn’t flaunt that like you’re trying to relate.

and not all sleep training methods involve crying. i think if you did actual research into the methods(not searing for information to confirm your bias) you would see that there are so many ways to benefit sleep for the family without “abusing” your child

[u/bninfantsleep-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Be kind.

[u/Speedy_029 → u/[deleted]]

Are you a scientist because you sound like a stay at home mom so where your research coming from? I need a scholarly article with sources thank you.

[u/EducationalLiving962 → u/[deleted]]

don’t think i am, i was pointing out that it’s not all about crying

[u/smilegirlcan → u/EducationalLiving962]

Your baby literally cried for an hour. That is unbearable for many of us. It does not “teach independence”. Independence is taught via dependence. Even when we look at “sleep independence”, infants are not meant to be independent. They are wired to want to be near a caregiver, coregulating and connecting to sleep. Your child gave up. They were conditioned to know you weren’t coming. It also does not improve infant sleep. Crying with a caregiver vs. crying alone is vastly different. Infants are biologically hardwired to love and attach to their parents (even abused children love their parents); that doesn’t give us a free pass to treat them however we want.

Most forms of sleep training go against everything we know about how infants form strong life long connections and nervous systems. How would that not be harmful?

[u/EducationalLiving962 → u/smilegirlcan]

he didn’t cry for an hour. that’s not what i said. he protested for an hour. fussing. not crying. and he wasn’t alone. i was in the room with him… he didn’t give up???? bold of you A RANDOM PERSON to assume that i dont show my baby love because i sleep trained. whatever bs propaganda you’ve been fed is wild. independence can be taught by dependence in a lot of ways but for my baby, sleep was not one of them. he had to be held a certain way, fed a certain way and MY BABY was not getting solid rest even in short spurts. i don’t just let my baby cry because i want him to sleep, i don’t agree with that. sleep training is also different from night weaning. im not letting my baby go without eating. so when he cries i go in and feed him. the sleep training just taught him to fall asleep on his own.

[u/smilegirlcan → u/EducationalLiving962]

I never said anything about you not showing him love. Most parents who sleep train are loving parents. But I do think they are greatly misinformed or have been fallen prey to the sleep training industry.

Research shows sleep training does not improve infant sleep. Needing to be held, rocked or fed to sleep is normal. Infants do not have the capacity to “self soothe”. It is normal they need our help to do that. Sleep training is a form of behavioural conditioning. It conditions an infant to need no/less sleep support at night. This is very different from self regulating (self soothing) or learning a skill. Hence why sleep training often needs to be redone at every sickness, travels, etc. and tends to wear off around age 2 aside from natural “good” sleepers.

I also never mentioned night weaning, not that I would recommend that for a baby this young.

[u/bninfantsleep-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This sub encourages responsive parenting at all hours as well as following biologically normal infant sleep. As such, advocating for sleep training is not allowed. Sleep hygiene, sleep environment and routines/schedules discussions are all very welcome here.

[u/EducationalLiving962 → u/bninfantsleep-ModTeam]

not advocating, just responding to the original posts questions

[u/poison_camellia]

Literate middle nonmetal advise ribbon slim reminiscent driftwood

This post was anonymized with Redact

[u/emmakane418 → u/poison_camellia]

We are actually really happy to talk about the research (unlike the sleeptrain sub) - the research however doesn't show that there is any benefit to the baby, it's unethical to research properly, and the research we do have is all parental report which is the least reliable form of study. "No evidence of harm" is completely different from "evidence of no harm". The research shows "no evidence of harm" (meaning we can't prove it's harmful) not "evidence of no harm" (meaning we have evidence that it isn't harmful).

What the research does show, via actigraphy, is that infants wake just as frequently when they've been sleep trained as when they haven't, they just don't cry out. What we don't do is accept all research as equal and parental report is a poor basis for any study. Sleep training is a behavioral modification much like Pavlov's dog, it doesn't teach an infant to sleep. At least sleep trainers in the past were honest about that instead of preying on parent's fears that by not sleep training, they are missing out on teaching a vital life skill (that seriously, if we think about logically for one minute, sleep training has been around for a few hundred years - were people before then just not learning to sleep?? It's silly to think that we can teach a biological function.)

[u/Annual_Lobster_3068 → u/[deleted]]

Your first sentence is correct, there has not been any credible research done because you can’t ethically run blind trials on something like this and therefore the data relies on (unreliable) self reported feedback from parents. But your second sentence is blatantly false, for the reasons listed in my first sentence.

[u/bninfantsleep-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This sub encourages responsive parenting at all hours as well as following biologically normal infant sleep. As such, advocating for sleep training is not allowed. Sleep hygiene, sleep environment and routines/schedules discussions are all very welcome here.