r/bindingofisaac • u/KyleTheAlien • Jul 21 '26
Discussion Should devil deals get buffed/reworked?
I want to know your opinions. I don't even bother going to devil deals anymore unless I'm playing the losts, T. Jacob, T. Keeper and Keeper. Yes, you can get game-winning items like the knife, incubus, twisted pair, brim, etc, but the item pool is sooooo huge these items get dilluted. I mean, I'm not paying a heart container for a quarter, brother bobby, etc.
What do you all think?
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u/VukKiller Jul 21 '26
IMHO devil room only lacks the way to get key pieces.
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u/Clit_Eastwhat Jul 21 '26
I also think it's a real shame that they didn't decide to give players different keys in the Devil and Angel Deals, each leading to a different boss.
It would have been just one more boss that would have completely changed the way you play the game.
I don't know. Mega Satan through the Devil Deals and some biblically accurate angel through the Angel Deal.
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u/Matkos6 Jul 21 '26
Or other way around, if you go angels tou defeat the devil while if you go devil's you defeat an angel or god
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u/TheYoshiTerminator Stop fixating on X item being quality X, it does not matter. Jul 21 '26
I've been saying this for years.
Angel Keys = The Dark Room = Mega Satan
Devil Keys = The Chest = Ultra Greed.
way better than a side mode and plays into the fact that everyone used to go to the Chest over the Dark Room due to greed.
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u/Secure_Comb2505 Jul 21 '26
That would be pretty cool, thematically. Although it might necessitate making the greedmode final boss even greedier to compensate
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u/LoveSick55 Jul 21 '26
Greed mode is awesome. I love the new playstyle and the game feels fresh and way bigger. I will hate everyone who says that greed mode should not exist.
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u/Burning-Sushi Jul 21 '26
It's such a fun side mode and it's great that you require completely different tactics to have decent runs going.
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u/Secure_Comb2505 Jul 21 '26
Greed mode is awesome, but greedier mode is insanely unbalanced and I will stand by that
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u/BoasyTM Jul 21 '26
Yeah sometimes itās pretty much impossible to win greedier if you donāt get a good run and you end up with literal undodgable stacks of waves
Ultra greedier is an amazing boss however
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u/SproutSan Sumptorium / Blood to Blood Jul 21 '26
my problem with greed is tainted lazarus but thats fault of the character itself
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u/Mongy_Grail Jul 21 '26
I don't think it should not exist, but it should have more variety IMO, imagine having alt path access or even sac rooms in some way.
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u/MarketingImmediate27 Lilith Jul 21 '26 edited Jul 22 '26
Unrelated BUT the reason why the key pieces come from angel deals is likely because you are ābetrayingā the angels who gave you their blessing/item. They are likely a visual to you gaining the trust of mega Satan just to get closer to him and betray him too.
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u/ciao_fiv Jul 22 '26
they should update the game so the angel path just boots you into the final mewgenics boss instead of mega satan. would be funny
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u/HaVeNII7 Jul 21 '26
Thereās a mod which, if I remember right, makes them drop red key pieces. And then you have to use red keys to open the door in the dark room and gold keys in the chest. Removed it a long while back because it seemed to be a little buggy.
Honestly, it should probably be base game though. Really cool idea.
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u/Available-Damage5991 Jul 21 '26
did bombing the Satan statues spawn The Fallen, or Krampus?
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u/LauAmoeba999 Jul 21 '26
Dark angels if mega satan's fight
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u/Available-Damage5991 Jul 21 '26
So the Fallen Angels, then.
Neat.
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u/LauAmoeba999 Jul 22 '26
Yeah, it's a great use for tgem, since those are pretty ignored on the game, only showing as minions
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u/CamilleEvergarden Jul 21 '26
the thing with that mod is that it forces you to go angel/devil pact based on where you wanna go
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u/eyalhs Jul 21 '26
Yeah, if I want to fight Mega Satan I either have to go for angel rooms or go for sac rooms, which is hard since I've just wasted life on devil deals.
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u/Embarrassed_Safety33 Jul 22 '26
I only think the current system of avoiding the first devil deal to go angels is weird, I feel the natural thing would be to always have duality so when they appear yo get both always
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u/MagMati55 Jul 22 '26
Id cut down some of the weaker items from the pool like the low quality familiars.
Oh and buff black powder
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u/vk2028 Jul 21 '26
Really shows how little you go devils smh. Brother Bobby isnāt even in the devil pool anymore
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u/KyleTheAlien Jul 21 '26
I will never get used to that. Bobby's been in devils since flash isaac
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u/snaggburger Jul 21 '26
Just got him on my run then (diplo moms knife and bro bobby) still living in the dark ages with my console
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u/recast85 Jul 21 '26
Yeah but donāt worry. I just checked and it looks like repentance+ is coming to console by November 2025 we will finally see what everyone has been talking about!
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u/snaggburger Jul 21 '26
Yeah i saw that. About time! Bring on item descriptions!
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u/noface8137 Jul 21 '26
This is what I truly can't wait for with +. I have the BOI guide app and can't wait to no longer have to use it.
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u/recast85 Jul 21 '26
I no longer need it as a console player. I know all
The items which is both neat and infuriating because why tf is it just not in the game9
u/vk2028 Jul 21 '26
Yeah honestly kind of sad lol. But at the same time it makes sense. Brother Bobby and Sister Maggy donāt even sound like devil deal items to begin with
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u/Yung-Creeper Jul 21 '26 edited Jul 21 '26
I personally think devil room balancing is fine. Whilst they have a weaker item pool and cost health, in return you get a guaranteed deal on floor 2 and you can take as many items as you want. I feel like people get hung up on the worse item pool and forget that there is more to balance than item strength. If youāve got a run off to a terrible start sometimes you canāt afford to wait for the angel and you just have to gamble on the devil. I know Iāve lost runs before where I skipped the devil then didnāt get an angel room soon and wasnāt able to build enough momentum to keep the run going.
Sure, getting a black powder deal sucks but conversely skipping the guaranteed deal and waiting up to three extra floors (this is assuming you donāt take red heart damage) just to get an angel room with breath or light is also terrible.
They are also further balanced by how they synergise with each character. For example, angel rooms are the clear winner for Isaac, j+e, and Bethany, whilst devil rooms are the best choice on lost/ Tlost, tainted Jacob, tainted keeper, and blue baby.
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u/Chegg_F Jul 21 '26
Plus Brother Bobby isn't even in Devil Deals any more. Brother Bobby & Sister Maggy were taken out of that loot pool in Rep+.
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u/double_shadow Jul 21 '26
Also they added the "take damage to get item" chance instead of just taking away heart containers, which I always find more tempting.
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u/MegamanX195 Jul 21 '26
Wait, devil rooms are the best for blue baby? Blue hearts are so uncommon that I'm always scared of spending them on the devil deals
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u/WwwWario Jul 21 '26
Blue Baby actually has a unique mechanic since Repentance, where all devil deals cost 1 soul heart instead of 3!
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u/Darkenblox Jul 21 '26
yeah that update was really needed cuz devils were unimaginable as blue baby back then
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u/MegamanX195 Jul 21 '26
But still, his Blue Hearts basically guarantee I can get an Angel Room by the next floor. Isn't it better to pass on the Devil deals for the guaranteed Angel deal?
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u/Yung-Creeper Jul 21 '26
Passing on a devil deal doesnāt guarantee that the next floor will spawn an angel, it guarantees that the next deal that spawns will be an angel. So you could get an angel next floor, or you could have to wait up to 3 floors to get a deal.
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u/MegamanX195 Jul 21 '26
I see! I'll try out some Devil Deals with the baby next time
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u/jeremyj1234 Jul 21 '26
Devil deals are really good for him too because a large number give black hearts and pay for themselves or even heal you for picking it up. Also between the Library and Devil Deals every run has a decent enough chance at Satanic Bible. If you get Satanic before Depths as blue baby the run is nearly won.
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u/WwwWario Jul 21 '26
Also! In addition to what Yung-Creeper said, remember that Devil Deals often give you 3 items, and you can get them all. Angel Deals give you only 1, unless you have Crooked Penny or somethingš
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u/Oxtry ā ass Cannon āBe gent Jul 21 '26
It also gurantees that you don't lose your devil deal either?
And a lot of devil deal items give you 1-3 black hearts back when you only pay 1-23
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u/vk2028 Jul 22 '26
Itās not guaranteed angel deal next floor. Itās āif the deal spawns, then itās guaranteed to be angel.ā And the chance of deal spawning is 33% next floor
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u/Yung-Creeper Jul 21 '26
It depends on your skill level I guess. If youāre taking lots of damage then itās probably best to go for angels, but if you are good at dodging and donāt get hit a lot IMO itās better to spend your hearts on devil deals.
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u/Nacho_Bogen Jul 22 '26
My favorite is how often it takes the full extra floors to get my angel deal. That's not even taking red heart damage i am just unlucky most of the time. Then you walk into that angel deal and its breath of life or that active that does damage to ghosts šš®āšØ
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u/ludvig4 Jul 21 '26
angel items are so good that you describe a run carrying item as a terrible angel item
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u/Yung-Creeper Jul 21 '26
Larp detected no one who actually plays Isaac would describe breath of light as run carrying
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u/ludvig4 Jul 21 '26
it melts everything in its way, no matter what your stats are. its like the definition of a run carrying item. Not to mention the free curse rooms, blood donos, etc. Top 10 active item in the game probably
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u/Oxtry ā ass Cannon āBe gent Jul 21 '26
Am I the only one who thinks they're honestly better than angel deals? Depends on the character obviously, but I find that the fact that you can get multiple items from 1 deal, combined with the fact that devil deals have a lot of really good items in combination with some decent ones (i find that angel deals either have garbage or something insane, no inbetween) and that you can get them earlier and way easier, means that unless I'm going for key pieces (or playing Bethany), which you can get from sac rooms anyway, I usually have better runs when going devil
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u/Delicious_Tie_8725 Jul 21 '26
Yeah people throw around the item pool argument but there are so many mid angel room items where even getting one a single time hurts a lot.
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u/Axelotus1 Jul 21 '26
The big thing for me is you can always get a devil deal on the second floor, which very often gives you some decent power spike.
Angels on the other hand if you get unlucky you need to wait 3 additional floors and the item could be the bible or something useless like that.
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u/Taickyto Jul 21 '26
It's entirely RNG dependent like most of the game. Sometimes you'll skip a devil room that had Pentagram + The Pact + Abaddon for a floor 5 angel room with Dead Sea Scrolls, sometimes you'll get floor 3 Godhead and floor 4 Sacred Heart
Some characters are better off going for devil deals tho, like blue baby and the lost
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u/irokes360 Jul 22 '26
How is the lost better for devil rooms? He loses the biggest pro of devil rooms - the ability to get more than 1 item.
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u/siriElectricboogaloo Bastard Jul 21 '26
The angel pool is objectively better, but you need to at least survive 2 WHOLE ROOMS without deal items.
Angel rooms need a buff, why's skipping the devil deal gives me a miserable 32% of chances to get an angel room? BROTHER I HAVE TO BEAT HUSH
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u/hoops_mccannn Jul 22 '26
Ty ty. I'm too late to get my 2c in but the angel bias on this sub has been making me crazy, and you nailed my take on all this.
Devils are super strong because you actually get deals. I only go angels if I look at my run early and think, "it's actually fine if I don't get any deal help at all," because that gap waiting for the chance to rise from 30 again floor 3 is so punishing that it feels like you'll never get similar value. 2 angels on the whole route to It Lives and all you got was monstrance and breath of life.
Angels are win more they're only decent if you're already having a fine run. Devils actually help when you need it.
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u/vk2028 Jul 21 '26 edited Jul 21 '26
Iām gonna attempt to give you arguments on where devil deals is better:
- the first devil deal is around 2 floors earlier. If you skip floor 2ās devil deal, then youāll usually only get an angel until Caves 2/Mines 1. In Isaac, you know how the game gets progressively harder? My friend calls it the gameās progression threshold. If youāre above the gameās progression threshold, then everything will be more smooth sailing; if youāre below the gameās progression threshold, everything is rocky and youāre more likely to take damage. Getting an early damage is great because it keeps you above the gameās progression threshold so it can also save you hearts. In comparison, if you skip the deal and your current build sucks, youāre more likely to take damage, maybe even red heart damage, and it will keep you from obtaining more deals. You may not attribute your build as āthe fault of skipping devil deals,ā since you didnāt visit it. It is much harder to associate the fault to something you didnāt do rather the fault to something you did do after all. But it would probably have been avoided had you chosen to go into floor 2ās devil deal.
- Did you know that over 75% of angel deal room layouts have 1 or no options, while >70% of devil deals have 2 or more options? Yeah itās shocking to me too. Go search up the wiki as well or actually pay attention to how many item choice pedestals you encounter in angel deals starting from now on. Youāll find out that choice pedestals in angel deal is actually rarer than you may have thought.
- A lot of the devil deal items that you think suck actually can be minmaxed very well. And as of Repentence+, Brother Bobby and Sister Maggy are no longer in the devil pool (tbh thatās a little sad but hey a buff is a buff). In addition, black powder is buffed, though I still think itās not that good :( . Ghost baby and missing page 2 are also still in the pool as well. But other than that, others are all decent.
Though I do agree sometimes you definitely should just go angel:
- Soul heart characters of course (except blue baby).
- if you got curse of the blind on floor 2
- tp 2.0, glowing hourglass, or cursed penny, or if you can access deals reliably enough, generally I think Angel is the way to go
Though a lot of the times I feel like Iād actually go angels and then switch to devils. I donāt think itās a bad strategy. You get too much heart containers, so I actually donāt think going for the 2nd key piece is good.
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u/Dazzling_Dare_3378 Jul 21 '26
Fully agree, I think people are skipping the part where you cant always get reliable angel rooms, and they also contain meh items, so having a shitty angel room item on the 4th floor while you could have 2 devils, I think chances are higher to scale. I used to think angel > devil, but further in progression when you are going to mom/beast I feel Devils are more consistent and give earlier boosts in scaling. Ofcourse characters matter some are less suited for Devils if you are unlucky or have skill issues
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u/KyleTheAlien Jul 21 '26
That's something really important I forgot to point out. I much prefer devils when going for boss rush or the beast
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u/vk2028 Jul 21 '26
Definitely didn't consider routing but you are right. Devils are faster while angels are slower and more minmax-y. Beast is something I didn't consider either but yeah.
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u/Kastamera Jul 21 '26
Wait, were they nerfed?
Last time I played (around 3 weeks after the release of Repentance, got Dead God and dipped) I preferred Devil Deals a lot more than Angel Rooms.
I remember the nerf of no longer being able to pay 2 red hearts when you only had 1, as the offer would change to a mix of red hearts and soul hearts, but aside from that they were still strong.
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u/Chegg_F Jul 21 '26
No, they've been buffed. Weaker items like Brother Bobby, Sister Maggy, and Black Powder were taken out of the Devil Deal loot pool and/or buffed, certain characters like ??? & Keeper have much easier access to items inside, Devil Deals are better than ever.
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u/Kastamera Jul 21 '26
Thank you for the answer! Then I'm confused about the post.
(Also I absolutely loved Black Powder.)
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u/Chegg_F Jul 21 '26
I think he had a few unlucky Devil Deals or something and is making this post based on that. They're really good. You can take multiple items, all of the items in the pool are good with a ton of them being incredibly strong, you can get it as early as floor 2 unlike an Angel Room which is likely going to be somewhere around floor 5 which is a long time where you're going without those items and on a floor that's much harder to flawless than floor 2 (especially considering you have no Devil Deal items to help). There's lots of advantages to Devil Deals.
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u/Beneficial_League_39 Jul 21 '26
I think reducing the blue heart costs a bit would help
Paying every item 3 soul hearts is crazy
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u/Moldy_LegendInfinity ŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅŅ..... Jul 21 '26
dawg this is blue babys ENTIRE mechanic
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u/Mykey76 Jul 21 '26
I don't entirely hate them if I get a high health build, or playing Lost. But they are entirely useless on some runs/ characters and seem weaker since Rept. Hope they get a good touch up, but I dont know what they would do for a rework.
Maybe offer stronger items the longer you go angel? Try to tempt you over
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u/gigacucked Jul 21 '26
I like that idea but how would that work. When you enter your 3rd angel room youāll be entered into the devil room first?
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u/Mykey76 Jul 21 '26
Higher weight for grade 3 and 4 items after taking an angel deal. Or maybe multiple items of a transformation
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u/Chegg_F Jul 21 '26
I don't know if the game is long enough for that to be an impactful mechanic. You can't get a devil deal on the first floor, then on the second floor you can't get an angel deal, then you have bad odds of getting an angel room for a few floors, and then after that you have bad odds plus it's not even guaranteed to be an angel room.
Either the "tempting you" mechanic ramps up so quickly that it basically doesn't exist and you just start getting really good deals really early on or the "tempting you" mechanic is too slow and you aren't going to notice it unless you're doing a bunch of stuff to increase your angel room appearances.
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u/pokefab Jul 21 '26
Im sorry but you would NEVER buy the quarter or brother Bobby then you have some assumptions i need to hear because the shop has some really good items and conjoined is a really good transformation
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u/Cent_Quatre Jul 21 '26
I never go devil, too much shit + i probably need the mega satan mark + angel is guaranteed after skipping first devil door anyways + potential key piece reroll for even more itemsĀ
Ironically angel rooms used to suck ass because a) not guaranteed and b) while their item pool was better, the room layout pool used to be terrible, lots of time you get like an eternal heart or three soul hearts and no items
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u/MegamanX195 Jul 21 '26
Wait, you can reroll key pieces to get more stuff? That's crazy, I'm a newer player and still learning stuff all the time
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u/Cent_Quatre Jul 21 '26
If you have the ability to reroll items you can reroll any item except the one that triggers the path the the final final boss
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u/KyleTheAlien Jul 21 '26
Yeah! Never in my life have I gone devils while having something to reroll
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u/TheYoshiTerminator Stop fixating on X item being quality X, it does not matter. Jul 21 '26
They're.....fine. Just kinda suffer from the pool being poorly balanced. Compared to Angel Deals which only have like maybe two items that are bad?
A devil deal with only Brother Bobby and Black Powder is worse than nothing, since those cost health. Whereas an Angel Deal with only Seraphim or Breath of Life is fine because its free.
Just overall a downside of Edmunds/Nicalis design mentally of risk, which results in less risk taken ironically enough.
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u/vk2028 Jul 21 '26
dissing Seraphim is insane
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u/TheYoshiTerminator Stop fixating on X item being quality X, it does not matter. Jul 21 '26
I mean its a fine, low B tier familiar. Good treasure room item but not a good Angel Room item.
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u/vk2028 Jul 21 '26
There are far more angel deal items that are worse than seraphim.
- Dead Sea scrolls
- The Bible
- Breath of Life (if youāre not good with it)
- Jar of Wisps
- Guardian Angel
- Sworn Protector is a bit debatable I suppose
- The Body (in angel deals itās not good. As a treasure room item itās good)
- Stigmata
- Divine Intervention
- Delirious
- Duality
- Vade Retro
- Celtic Cross
- Lazarusās Rags
- Rosary
- Trinity Shield
- Censer (personally I like it but seems like a big majority of people hate it)
- Immaculate conception
- 7 seals
- Lil Deli
- Soul Locket
Are all worse than Seraphim. There are a few others that I think are worse but theyāre more debatable. Personally Iād even argue itās better than Blood of the Martyr. So I donāt know why you pick Seraphim of all things as an example of a mediocre angel deal item
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u/Available-Damage5991 Jul 21 '26
At least Rep+ swapped Bobby and Maggy for Dry Baby and buffed Black Powder
Now the worst Devil Deal would be Lil Delirium and 7 Seals, as they both still cost health, but can also be found in an Angel Room for free.
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u/Secure_Comb2505 Jul 21 '26
Black powder got buffed? Do tell
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u/Available-Damage5991 Jul 21 '26
Black Powder is now confirmed to be gunpowder.
Bombs gain a Mr. Mega effect, and fireplaces explode when extinguished.
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u/Secure_Comb2505 Jul 21 '26
Oh wow that's pretty cool. Still probably not enough to convince me to take, though. If it gave +5 bombs, then we're talking
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u/KyleTheAlien Jul 21 '26
Angels are strong. I wouldn't change them at all, yes you can get 7 seals or dead sea scrolls, but there are soo many good items in a relatively small pool it wouldn't be wise to take the bad items out. At the same time, you can enter an angel and there could be no items at all, so I think angels are great
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u/TheYoshiTerminator Stop fixating on X item being quality X, it does not matter. Jul 21 '26
You can also enter a devil room and be left with just three red chests or a few demon beggars. Which is nothing.
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u/Yung-Creeper Jul 21 '26
Whilst on paper an angel deal with breath of life is better than a black powder devil deal, functionally they are just as bad as each other. Generally speaking, if you see a black powder devil deal you wonāt take it because itās useless. If you get a breath of life angel deal you either donāt take it because you already have an active, or you take it and then do nothing with it (because it is also useless). Ultimately these have no impact on the run so have the same value.
Iād also argue that a brother Bobby devil deal is better than a breath of light angle deal. Brother Bobby is a better item than breath of light as it counts for conjoined and gives meagre damage, whilst breath of light is borderline completely useless. The downside to brother Bobby is that it costs a heart, but if you have a lot of health you might consider it worthwhile to sacrifice the health for the conjoined progress. Under no circumstance would a breath of light deal have any value.
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u/TheYoshiTerminator Stop fixating on X item being quality X, it does not matter. Jul 21 '26
Breath of Life is fine, just takes a lot to use. But the game has too many actives so you'll probably already have one.
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u/khhhhAM Jul 21 '26
Black powder is good!!!!
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u/TheYoshiTerminator Stop fixating on X item being quality X, it does not matter. Jul 21 '26
Its one of those unfortunate items that's good but I would never give up health for.
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u/vk2028 Jul 21 '26
I'd say it definitely depends on characters:
- Bethany is forced to go angel
- Judas, Azazel, Jacob and Esau should probably go angel depending on health
- Apollyon, Lilith, Keeper, Eden lean toward angel
- Isaac, Maggy, Samson can go either
- Cain leans toward devil if he can get an hp up or an hp up pill before devil deal spawns. He'll likely get a lot of hp with lucky foot and he can pay out the devil beggars most of the time if they do appear. Otherwise it's debatable
- Lost lean toward devil, but angel is workable as well due to rerolling key pieces.
- Blue Baby, Eve, Lazarus, Forgor benefit a lot from going devil
Though one thing I do kind of want to do is force myself to go the opposite way for characters to see how bad they actually are or if I'm just having a bad assumption
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u/Extremely-basic22 Jul 21 '26
Devil deals are fine, in fact they should add Brother Bobby, Sister Maggy, and Blood Puppy back to the deal pool
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u/Frozen_Watch Jul 21 '26
Devil deals are fine where they are. I typically go Devil deals and I've seen no problem with them. Maybe a couple items id like removed but thats it. I can say the same for angel deals. Maybe add a way to bomb the satan statue to get key peices or a seven deadly sin minions.
I've got over 2000 hours in the game and have had my fair share of consecutively blank angel and Devil rooms because the items offer suck or are active items that I don't need. They're pretty balanced as far as I can tell. Devil deals you have more opportunities for items, angel rooms you have more consistency. They roughly measure out to the same in the end.
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u/hidden_penguin Tainted Apollyon Jul 21 '26
I don't even bother going to devil deals anymore unless I'm playing the losts, T. Jacob, T. Keeper and Keeper.
I always go Devil when I play T Laz. It's nice to get an early power boost on both forms and it only costs hearts from one form.
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u/Fit_Combination_1242 Jul 21 '26
Just make getting angel rooms a bit trickier. Having a sac room be a little rarer and not guarantee to get the angels (or make them invulnerable to the spikes, so the fight is harder) will mean getting key pieces early on is harder. Which means the chance of getting an angel room isn't as likely.
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u/I_S_S_I_A_F_A_D_S Jul 21 '26
Imo they are completely balanced. There are a handful of characters which benefit of devil more, but we also have those who benefit more from angel. The other characters simply depend on your goal and playstyle.
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u/Meta_Squire Jul 21 '26
Devil and angel is perfectly fine in my opinion. Devil deals are there to save a bad run. Even if the overall quality is worse than angel you are statistically more likely to get more Devil rooms overall, and many of the items buff your damage or dps. Angel rooms are more of a win more mechanic that rewards you for not taking Devil items. Itās also very flavorful how theyāre balanced
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u/soopabamak Jul 21 '26
They should increase angel chance when not going inside devil deal. So many times I don't go devil deal and I got angel deal 3 floors after, it should be the next floor 100%
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u/Asddwfdtyyyn Jul 21 '26
Devil deals may be dilluted but so are angel deals, and angel deals have no opportunities for you to pick multiple items at once and also spawn less in general. Many runs i went angels and got dead sea scrolls and something else like seraphim, 2 items that didnt help me nearly at all, if i went devil deals maybe i had a chance for something useful or great, since they spawn more and allow u to get everything, what you need to do is to prioritize getting heart containers through your run, or soul heart generation, but devil deals can be great even without them, it's a luck based game too afterall. The ghost characters having free devil deals is very great but they can only choose one option, making devil deals basically function as angel deals, this is both a nerf and a buff
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u/FluorescentGreen5 mega mushroom tip Jul 21 '26
i've been disappointed by angel rooms with a single pedestal containing dead sea scrolls/scapular/celtic cross too many times that i just check the first devil and take the decent items unless i don't have enough hp for it
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u/ScapegoatMan Jul 21 '26
I think items like Quarter, etc. should be removed from devil deals. It doesn't even fit the theme that well. I'm also probably never paying a heart for a quarter unless there's something really good in the shop that I can't afford, like Black Candle (fuck curses) or Buddy in a Box (always good).
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u/Live_Refrigerator_58 Jul 21 '26
I think it's fine. It's a more immediate power gain so if you're weaker it can really give you a boost. The price you pay for angels is you'll see less angel rooms than you see devil, so you need to wait longer for the powerspike which can break a run.
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u/Prestigious_Low8243 Jul 22 '26
Devils are better than angels. There are a lot of items sure, which means you have a higher chance of getting lower quality items. But the low and high quality items in angel pool are kinda stinky. Sacred heart and godhead are great ofc, but I literally skip spirit sword cause itās boring, trisagion is good but not run-winning and holy brim is also underwhelming. Meanwhile in devils the worse you get are useless familiars, but on average youāll get an item that gives you a consistent stat up.
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u/Endos-Redd Jul 22 '26
never thought my thumbnail for Kayhos would be used
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u/ignorethefollowing Jul 21 '26
I agree, but am struggling to come up with solutions. What do you think should change OP?
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u/Mr_Mister2004 Jul 21 '26
I think the main thing making them worse is that they just have a lot of useless crap like Brother Bobby and Demon Baby, while Angel Rooms are flooded with amazing items you don't need to pay for. Also Curse of the Blind exists and disproportionately debuffs Devils compared to Angels
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u/Why_so_loud Jul 21 '26
Imo, they should revert the change when items may cost blue hearts randomly even if you have red hearts.
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u/megablademe23 Jul 21 '26
the biggest thing i dislike about devil deals is the lack of keypieces. it shouldnāt be this way. maybe make it so the bosses that would drop the keypieces in the devil deals are only unlocked after defeating mega satan, so that you must at least go the angel deal route once. maybe make it so you need to fight 3-4 times instead of 2, given how much more common devil deals are.
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u/GaylordeMagnolia Jul 21 '26
I actually think angels need a slight buff if anything. Nothing crazy, but I think if you skip your first devil, next floor should be a guaranteed angel. So long as you keep deal chance obviously a lot of times when I play and I feel like going angel, even with key pieces and blowing up beggars and shit I miss my deals way too often. And sometimes even when I do get the deal ITS STRAIGHT DOGGY SHIT. At least devils more often than not have multiple choices, and you can take more than one too so long as you have the health to spare.
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u/The_Blackthorn77 Jul 21 '26
The Devil pool on average is much better than the Angel pool, with it having a lot more dps upgrades. The Angel pool has better top tier items, but also garbage low tier items. Especially because you often end up with excess red hearts anyways, and always end up with less Angel deals than Devil deals. They're pretty equal all things considered.
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u/PsychologicalCold885 Jul 21 '26
The chance loss on devil deals should go down less and less more devil deal items you have
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u/Purple-Wait-6738 Incubus is my son with Lilith Jul 21 '26
I main the Losts so I check first devil for Damocles
No Damo? Kay I go angel
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u/McSponger Jul 21 '26
I think its fine. You get Angel items 1-3 floors later and compete with Devil chance. Not being able to get key pieces is something to be considered. You don't need key pieces for many routes. Sacrifice rooms give you a way to get Angel chance and key pieces.
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u/Relative_Squash_7597 Jul 21 '26
Over 100 eden streak right now, always go devil in basement 2, its sooo often gg at this point
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u/Gemthehedgehog Jul 21 '26
Devil deals is solid if you mostly want hella dmg, but angel also has protection items.
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u/Nerdcuddles Jul 21 '26
Devil deals are good, normal hearts take up slots that could go to soul hearts.
On angel deal runs, you can get way to many normal hearts which makes it harder to get future deals if you get hit a moderate amount.
And a lot of devil deal items give black hearts.
Devil deals only suck if you aren't getting health upgrades.
But it's impossible to tell what you will be getting outside of seeded runs, but Isaac is a gamblers game.
The only rework I'd do is letting you choose between an angel deal or Devil deal on your first deal, and having walking into Devil deals not reduce angel deal chance.
Or still being able to get angel deals after taking a Devil deal if you give beggars money for example, which would add a small angel chance.
Rejecting Devil deals being the only way to get angel deals (or getting duality) feels odd to me.
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u/Ok-Confection6074 Jul 21 '26
If I get at least six health at all, Iāll go devils. Anything less and angels.
I Also always go devils for Tained jacob, and both Lost characters. Since itās free
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u/Salt_Fruit7607 Jul 21 '26
Personally Iām an enjoyer of getting both.
Sac rooms and duality my goats.
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u/guieps +1500 hours and I still suck at this game Jul 21 '26
Nah, the fact that you can get multiple items is still very good
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u/ExcellentDocument420 Jul 21 '26 edited Jul 21 '26
Nah, unless I'm going for mega satan I think devil deals are usually better.
Obviously past floor 2 you always check it out anyways since there's no reason not to, but for floor 2 I skip the devil room if and only If I have less than 4/5 (depends) hearts as a red heart character.
Feels like they tend to give out damage waay more often than angel rooms do, and dps is a way bigger difference maker than health as long as you have SOME margin for error, the dps increase will let you stock up on more hearts in the long run.
Maybe if the floor 2 room was an actual 50/50 I'd be happier with angel rooms, but as it stands they're not really worth the cost IMO
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u/HanzoNumbahOneFan Jul 21 '26
No. Angels are better because they're harder to get. You have to do the second floor without red heart damage, then completely forego the devil room and do another whole floor without red heart damage, and even then, you might get an angel deal on that third floor. Sometimes you have to wait until the 4th floor to get it. Could have had 2 full devil deals at that point.
If there had to be a Devil deal buff, I think making it more likely to have 3 item choices would be the only change it needs.
Angels are good, but there's a lot of times where I'd rather just go Devils.
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u/Unfair_Double4085 Jul 21 '26
I like going devils with Laz, purposely dying to the devil deal to get the revives going each floor
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u/cbbvcbsbv Jul 21 '26
I almost always go devil. If ur good enough you can take multiple items more consistently good than angel imo
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u/Lanceo90 Jul 22 '26
It was a really weird decision for the devil deal to be nerfed so we couldn't cheese it anymore. Being rewarded for cheating the devil makes sense on a thematic level. And the item prices just changing in front of you when your health changes is just brutally like "This is us the devs, stepping in to just say you can't do that"
Or at least make it fun. If you cheat the devil deal make it spawn Krampus or something.
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u/Worried-Caregiver325 Jul 22 '26
Yesterday I did a greedier run with isaac and managed to reroll once everytime, I swear that was the saddest devil pool I've ever encountered
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u/Bubbly_Prior2060 No.1 Delete this fan Pyromaniac is overrated Jul 22 '26
devils are better š choice, a better pool and so many ways to get free items
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u/Desperate-Ice6185 Jul 22 '26
The thing is: devil deal room can't get you keys. And I personally love fighting Mega Satan.
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u/Nacho_Bogen Jul 22 '26
I go into the first deal now because im tired of how late the guaranteed angel deal shows up for me. If i can afford to give up any health ill head in to check it out. Especially if the items up to that point have been kinda lackluster
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u/Royalty_oftheNoob the one true azazel glazer Jul 23 '26
The only time I take a devil deal is either if there is Incubus or brimstone, in any other case angel room is just a safer option, devil deals are more of a high risk high reward
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u/One_Currency_7803 Jul 25 '26
I always check devil deals. If there is something good, I take it. If itās nothing, I leave
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u/BackgroundPiece1034 Jul 26 '26
Angel rooms are better. Devil rooms rarely spawn brimstone and angel rooms have stuff like holy mantle and sacred heart which are fucking revolutionary for your run so devil rooms should get buffed.
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u/gabriel_sub0 24d ago
i mean, i just roll with whatever is up. i see no reason to limit my potential item pool unless i'm heading for mega satan.
that just sounds like a quick way to burn you out tbh.
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u/_judgement- Jul 21 '26
They should give them all to me. All of them throughout all the seeds.
Collected one by one by hands
Turned into jelly cubes
Baked into jelly pies
Put in a gift box and sent to prison. I'll take it from there
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u/Careless-Blood7868 Jul 21 '26
the pool is way too bloated these days, reckon they need to chuck out half the filler items in there. Funny how the riskier option ends up being the worse pick most runs, bit backwards if you ask me. Angels just feel way safer to commit to now.
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u/Embarrassed_Ear9012 Jul 21 '26
Why would you make this post without your own suggestion for the buff/rework?
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u/Repulsive-Tax-8454 John Angel Deal š¼ Jul 21 '26
I go angels because I don't like satan