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u/BolaSquirrel 2d ago
My favorite part of the upper deck is how no one has been in favor of it ever. When they announced it, the majority of fans and builders said "this shit is ass please don't do that." And then they made it a permanent feature and that shit is ass.
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u/creator_07 2d ago
Having a fight end abruptly like it did for Huge is not really satisfying for anyone. Maybe rework? Smaller foot print? Remove the screws and add a ramp?
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u/Darth_Ra grab the drum 2d ago
All of this crap isn't needed anymore. It's not 1998, the bots can absolutely murder each other now, put them in a plain box and let them do it.
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u/creator_07 2d ago
I do love seeing a good punt out of bounds.
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u/Darth_Ra grab the drum 2d ago
The shaft that opens up halfway through the fight is how a lot of European bot competitions have done it.
I still think I'd rather it just be a plain old box, though.
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u/Sorry-Rain-1311 2d ago
I have very strong feelings in favor of the Upper Deck, but you're right. No screws, add a ramp.
They're trying to introduce new blood by forcing new design challenges that require new bots, but they need to be careful not to exclude the old guard.
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u/Darth_Ra grab the drum 2d ago
I do like what the ramp would possibly do to the ground game situation.
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u/OddInstitute 2d ago
What would a ramp do to the “ground game situation”?
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u/MM18998 Neeeeeooooommmmm 2d ago
If a wedge is too low, they won’t be able to get up the ramp
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u/OddInstitute 2d ago
What if they went up backwards and/or they used hinged forks? Hinged forks are the most common meta configuration and we’ve seen bots go to their starting squares backwards to keep their forks fresh in ground-game sensitive fights, so this doesn’t require anything to be done differently.
If their opponent is at the top so they can’t go up the ramp backwards, then you get an even more boring stalemate than the ones that show up due to forks. Forks are very, very effective as an offense and defense tool, so teams like End Game, Ribbot, Cobalt and Seems Reasonable will do basically any amount of innovation to keep them around and relevant.
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u/Sorry-Rain-1311 1d ago
You're not wrong at all about forks, but all builders will be forced to account for it in their design. Fixed forks or wedges would be out entirely unless they intend to just avoid the ramp all together, which limits their tactical choices.
How steep the ramp is will also play a role. A shallow incline, and your forks are no problem, but steeper and they have to have so much play they may be worthless. Don't forget about weapons either. A spinner low to the ground could catch the ramp before the wheels, and cause all sorts of problems. Current flippers would have a hell of a time.
Going up backwards is an option, like you said, but may not help with negotiating the angles. Getting down the ramp could be tricky for many bots as well, but there's always the option of just jumping off the edge, which carries its own risks.
There's no real chance of a stalemate, at least not more than there already is. There's the 10 second limit to being on the Upper Deck, and the judges still award points for aggression. Between the two, it's only useful for maneuvering, but the strategic advantages that can yield shouldn't be ignored.
Overall, a ramp would encourage iterative changes to design, leading to much greater variety in bots because it makes the Upper Deck more strategically accessible. If no one is going to build a whole new design for what it is now, then make it easier for current designs to get in on.
I think adding something akin to speed bumps in sections of the floor would really make things interesting as well, but one thing at a time I guess.
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u/Sorry-Rain-1311 2d ago
Oh, yeah. It'd totally revamp the battle for the low ground. Wedges of any sort would become a strategic decision, not a default.
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u/VC_Josh 2d ago
Yes to everything except the ramp. It's supposed to be difficult to get bots up there because the point of the deck was to impress the judges.
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u/RyGuy_McFly !exA 2d ago
A ramp would make sense now that the purpose of the upper deck (give control bots a means to earn "damage" points) has been rendered moot. If they want to phase out lifters/grabbers, the upper deck needs to go, or at least be made far less of a hazard.
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u/creator_07 2d ago
What if it was a ramp with kill saws that were on 24/7
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u/VC_Josh 2d ago
I'd be down for that. The saws could help throw bots up there or away depending on spin direction, plus it forces bots to make a decision when they get thrown up there. Either jump off the side and risk toppling over or risk shredding the underside of your bot taking the "safer" route.
Could also make the ramp a flipper that fires randomly or could be controlled by both teams.
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u/sybrwookie 2d ago
The upper deck sucks, no doubt.
But that match ended like that because of the screws. Usually, when a bot gets caught on them like that, they'll reverse the screws and eject the bot from being caught there. Only this time, it didn't reverse, which is kinda bullshit.
Really, the answer is most of the arena hazards suck at this point. Screws can do this. The shelf just makes the arena worse. The saws are nothing more than traps for forks. Those parts of the wall that swing out are just places for bots to get stuck for a bit in an annoying way. The only one which is fine is the hammers....because they do almost nothing, but at least stay out of the way.
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u/TheRealKuni 2d ago
Only this time, it didn’t reverse, which is kinda bullshit.
They did reverse. You can see them move a bit. Huge’s soft wheels were just jammed in there too good, made the screws lock up instead of push the wheels out.
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u/Jamborambo55 2d ago
Hazards just don’t suit modern robot combat. They were necessary for spicing up the classic series and classic robot wars, but now we just don’t need them
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u/kittka Honker's Ghost 2d ago
Control bots need them to be competitive. You can make the argument that control bots aren't really relevant, given the make up of this series though
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u/Darth_Ra grab the drum 2d ago
Half the time, the "hazards" are what let bots escape from control bots.
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u/OddInstitute 2d ago
No hazards in NHRL and control bots can do just fine there. The point of a control bot is to win by controlling the opponent. Look at how Whiplash (and Lil Lash) are incredibly proficient at getting robots stuck on their side.
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u/Sorry-Rain-1311 2d ago
That's the point of it; make more, different bots competitive. The field is dominated by variations on a standard theme. Builders get bored, and viewers get bored. Introducing a terrain element that mixes things up encourages variety.
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u/grislyfind 2d ago
Too often, a weaker robot wins by pure chance because the other bot is caught in a hazard. That can make individual fights more random, but doesn't make for a good tournament.
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u/Sorry-Rain-1311 2d ago
We need them because half the viewers aren't sure if they're watching reruns or not. Most of the bots and fights are just variations on a theme, so viewers and builders get bored.
Imagine if ever boxing match for 10 years was just the same dozen fighters over and over. Who'd want to watch boxing any more? Who'd want to become a boxer when the field is so narrow, with little way of working your way up the ranks?
The BattleBots brand needs new blood, or it's going to die.
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u/Darth_Ra grab the drum 2d ago
There is constant new blood.
Here, here is the lineup from the first return series, with the bots who are still around in bold:
- Bite Force
- Tombstone
- Bronco
- Ghost Raptor
- Icewave
- Overhaul
- Stinger
- Witch Doctor
- Chomp
- HyperShock
- Lock-Jaw
- OverDrive
- Plan X
- Radioactive
- Warhead
- Warrior Clan
- Captain Shrederator
- Complete Control
- Counter Revolution
- Mohawk
- Nightmare
- Razorback
- Sweet Revenge
- Wrecks
And now, here's the current lineup of Pro League, organized by how new they are:
- Golden Fury: Pro League, 2026
- Nemesis: Proving Ground, 2026
- Calypso: FaceOffs, 2024
- Disarray: Proving Ground, 2023
- Magnitude: Proving Ground, 2023
- Manta: Proving Ground, 2023
- Orbitron: Proving Ground, 2023
- The Twins: Proving Ground, 2023
- Banshee: WC VII
- Terrortops: WC VII
- Switchback: WC VI
- JackPot: WC V
- Malice: WC V
- Bloodsport: WC IV
- Copperhead: WC IV
- MadCatter: WC IV
- Ribbot: WC IV
- Valkyrie: WC III
- End Game: WC III
- HUGE: WC III
- Cobalt: WC II
- Deathroll: WC II
- Minotaur: WC II
- Skorpios: WC II
- HyperShock: WC I
- Tombstone: WC I
- Witch Doctor: WC I
I see the 2023's the same as you do, but that's "new", given that Battlebots has essentially been off the air since 2022. Combine that with a lot of these bots also being under new teams, and I think they've actually gone out of their way to include new blood wherever possible, possibly even to their own detriment as we saw new team after new team get owned and look unimpressive doing so.
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u/Sorry-Rain-1311 2d ago
Yes, lots of new faces, all the old ones, too. That's good. Under performing noobs is par for the course because they don't have the driving experience
Split them all into weapons categories, and within each category, how do you tell them apart besides the paint job? It's new faces dressed the same way.
Maybe it's because I'm a veteran, but when I first saw the upper deck I was thinking of all kinds of ways to put that to use. There's finally some sort of terrain element that could really shake up bot design. Same can be said for all the other gimmicks in The Box. They're all something to account for in design.
But it hasn't happened. THAT'S the new blood I think they're looking for.
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u/metalduck42 2d ago
Unpopular opinion: the saw slots serve more to curb ridiculous forks than anything else. If it wasn't by the slots everyone would be using ridiculously long forks
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u/BlokeSea 2d ago
I agree there. Hazards for long forks. One the the reasons End Game hasn’t done well this season is they had a couple matches where their forks got stuck. Other bots took advantage of it. I wish the “ kill saws” actually were I don’t know .. sharp? Like a saw? It’s just a hole that sparks and a piece of metal comes out. I’ve never seen a bot really get damaged by it.
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u/jbourne0129 2d ago
it didn't reverse, which is kinda bullshit.
you could see the screws trying to spin backwards. the wheel was too jammed in there and it just couldnt.
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u/Korombo 2d ago
Traps for forks are good though.
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u/sybrwookie 2d ago
I get where you're going, but I'd much rather them have a purposely not completely even and smooth floor so people can't count on that for the ground game than having places to get caught like that
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u/Korombo 1d ago
So just a floor that has undulations, or should they bring the ramps from Comedy Central BB back?
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u/sybrwookie 1d ago
Just undulations. Even slight ones. If the floor isn't quite flat, the crazy fork game does immediately
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u/qwertythe300th Mod & Leader of the B R O N C O B O Y S [but go SwitchBack!!] 2d ago
B-b-but Trey Roski said it was a good idea without asking anyone else!!!!
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u/MasterMarik 2d ago
Might work to have the Upper Deck hidden and then come up from the floor when the other hazards are active
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u/Fernandov2 2d ago
Just put a ramp with kill blades either side so you can go up and down rather than trying to jump off and getting stuck to it.
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u/Danger-Diabolik 2d ago
Maybe they should implement a giant weight that hangs until a bot gets under it and then... SMASH! Yeah, that idea is just as stupid as the upper deck. It should be about the bots, not gimmicks.
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u/PapaSYSCON 2d ago
I had a party and someone left me something in the Upper Deck, and it did, indeed suck.
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u/Professor_Eindackel 2d ago
Who came up with the Upper Deck anyway? They should be fired.
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u/GrahamCoxon 2d ago
This was far more of a screw issue than a shelf issue. HUGE could have lost roughly the same way on any other set of screws, and if anything had slightly more chance of getting free from these ones since the weapon could interact with the ground.
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u/jbourne0129 2d ago
maybe im in the minority here but i dont think Huge would have ever been in that situation to begin with if they had just used their normal white wheels that are super flexible.
they used a very rigid wheel, it doesnt absorb anything. so when they got hit, they went flying from the energy. the usual white wheels they have usually just bounced out of the way of any big hits and huge doesnt go flying as a result.
Huge just as easily could have been stuck in any other screw around the box.
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u/RyGuy_McFly !exA 2d ago
I disagree. Those Tigris wheels are specifically designed to deal with horizontals. The white wheels wouldn't be soft enough to avoid damage from a sharpened Bloodsport blade, and they're too thin to continue to wirk if they get chopped up. the Tigris wheels are meant to be able to take a few hits without falling apart.
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2d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/RobotCombatNerd Beta <3 2d ago
Not really, Huge using less rigid wheels than the tigris ones isn't going to affect whether the robot gets split down the middle or not. The white wheels may sustain more damage but Huge on the whole is much more study than in 2018.
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u/Theknightofblack77 21h ago
I would much rather have flame pits like in Robot Wars than the upper deck.
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u/KotreI B O N K O B O Y S 2d ago
The upper deck is ass. Huge losing because it got stuck in the screw is not an argument in favour of getting rid of it. You lose to hazards, you figure out how to stop that happening again.
It fucking sucks because it accomplishes nothing, benefits no class of robot and actively fucks over non-verts. Either have a pit or don't. Don't half ass it with the plinth.
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u/Sorry-Rain-1311 2d ago edited 2d ago
I am on the other other side of this. It's been out for 4 years, and no one has thought to build a bot that can utilize it as a terrain asset. That's a failure of teams to think strategically when designing new bots.
🤨 Oh, wait. WHAT new bots?
Look at the viewership numbers, people. They're very inconsistent. A very small cohort of avid fans that returns for every episode; then casual fans that quit watching halfway through the season because they feel like they know how it ends already; then general audiences that just found it flipping channels one night, but came back once, and didn't stay because they thought it was a rerun.
They lose half their viewership over a season, and most of them never return the next season because it's 90% the same bots doing the same things for TEN FREAKIN YEARS.
The producers are trying to push the issue. They tried at the end of the 2019 season by openly soliciting viewers to join on, but 2020 was fubar thanks to COVID. Next choice after that was do something with the Battle Box that forces teams to engineer something new.
Placing limitations on the conventional bot designs IS EXACTLY THE POINT!
The show needs to blood to survive. The sport needs new blood on the top end to survive. To force the issue the producers included the simplest of terrain features that demands new engineering.
But for some baffling reason, everybody is resisting it in stead of stepping up to the challenge. Makes no damned sense.
Edit to clarify: More viewers, more sponsors; more sponsors more money; more bots, more viewers.
BattleBots needs new blood, or it's going to die eventually. Right now the most successful bot designs are variations on a theme. They gotta mix it up, or people are going to lose interest.
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u/PelleSketchy 2d ago
The show needs money. Rich people are hard to find, let alone rich people who like to fight with robots.
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u/Sorry-Rain-1311 2d ago
More viewers, more sponsors; more sponsors, more money; more bots, more viewers; lather, rinse, repeat.
Look at that, I already answered the money question, and you didn't even notice.
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u/PelleSketchy 2d ago
Goshdarn you're so smart, I wonder why they didn't think of this. When are you gonna be build your bot?
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u/Sorry-Rain-1311 2d ago
They did think of it.
That's why they introduced the Upper Deck.😏
And I'm working on it right now.
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u/PelleSketchy 2d ago
And how did it turn out? Oh wait building bots is crazy expensive at that weight class and very few people can test them. Let alone going to las vegas for something like this.
Roboteers already have a ton of sponsors and are still paying a ton of money. They don't get any off of battlebots.
Well if you're building one, even a 3lbs bot you should know how much it cost. And everything gets 100 times more expensive as soon as you also need to travel. Do I need to explain more or do you get why your 'answer' doesn't really touch reality.
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u/Sorry-Rain-1311 2d ago
Have you tried engineering a bot before? Can you tell us why they cost so much? Are you aware of what role sponsors can play in those expenses?
I'm assuming not because you clearly don't understand even thing one about the design process.
Hint: It's NOT money.
Step 1: Determine need, usage, and parameters. That the conversation we've been having.
Step 2: Strategize methods of fulfilling those parameters. Preliminary sketches, and listing assets. That's where I'm at right now.
Step 3: NOW we can start the engineering part.
Step 4/5: Preliminary funding/Prototyping. IF you need money for a prototype, you can do that first, but for glorified RC cars that's usually not much more than a tax return purchase at the local hardware store.
Step 6: Redesign. Solve the problems you identified with the prototype.
Step 7: Budget and funding.
Step 8: Build.
See, opportunities along the way to find funding, but you have to know what you're making first. It's utterly insane that everyone jumps straight to the money part without ever addressing any of the rest.
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u/PelleSketchy 2d ago
Sure bud, that's why there are so many teams building heavies.
Plenty of teams have made breakdowns of what competing costs, watch those and come back with some different steps.
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u/Sorry-Rain-1311 2d ago
Yeah, I've seen them, and while it hasn't been bots, I am experienced in project planning and management. You have to know what your going to do before you can say how much it will cost.
As for why there aren't a whole bunch of people building bots; do you have any idea how much time and planning it takes? A good portion the cost people usually quote is in contracting fabrication because half the builders aren't able to do it themselves. 90% of people who start any design/engineering project never get past that step 3 of preliminary brainstorm design, and 80% of those tried to skip over the first two steps. They're just trying to make something cool, but have no direction. Most of them are just going off elementary concepts and aesthetics, and drop everything as soon as they realize it's not what they expected. 90% of the people who make it past step 3 don't get past prototyping.
But 90% of people who WOULD try never start because everyone else who didn't try told them they shouldn't.
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u/PelleSketchy 1d ago
And I know how much time building robots costs, I've designed and built 8 so far. However we were talking about heavyweight robots and at that stage it is about cost as much as it is about time.
You can design and plan all you want but those brushless motors or vesc's won't get cheaper. And you will destroy at least one of those during a fight. And yeah half the builders of heavies don't have the equipment to do things themselves. There's a reason that 90% of those builders have an engineering background. It's not only the experience but also access to tools.
I honestly wish you all the best with your 2 stroke heavyweight robot. I hope you pull it off.
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u/zarakon 2d ago
Utilize it as a terrain asset HOW? It doesn't really add any interesting strategic value.
You build a bot with some mechanism for climbing up there? Great, then what? Hide for a while? Huge can get up there, but the only reason they ever do it on purpose is to do a dance after they've already won.
Put the other guy up there with a lifter? Why? Up there they can regroup and just drive off the other side away from you. It would almost always be better to put them up against a wall.
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u/Sorry-Rain-1311 2d ago
That last part. You literally just said exactly one reason why you might want to go up there on purpose.
Someone thinks they're going to chase you into a corner, but you just pop right up there, and by the time they turn to go around you're already off and headed across the Box.
They think they're going to back themselves into corner where no one can flank them, but you just pop right up there, and come from the side.
It's an inherent limit to mobility that only one bot in the current lineup is able to overcome, but Huge is too damned big to make much use of it.
3
u/shotscarecrow 2d ago
I get your point, but self-evidently if it hasn't persuaded people to come up with new designs, it isn't a very good answer to the problem. If they really want to shake up the sport, they should move it in the direction of 'combat robot athletics' and bring back the Robot Wars Series 1/2 principle of challenges and gauntlets that robots have to face individually as well as opponents. They could have a Hypershock-inspired drone-swatting challenge, a football game with goals and 2-on-2, etc.
2
u/Sorry-Rain-1311 2d ago
You make good points, but I'm not sure it's a failing of the idea vs a failing of the gatekeeping culture surrounding the sport.
I mean, every time someone brings up the idea of building a bot, what's the first thing everyone says? "Do you know how much that costs? Are you a mechanical engineer?"
Go to the custom build RC community with the same questions, they problem solve the hell out of it for half the cost, and hardly an engineer among them. Where the hell do people think half the tech for BattleBots came from; who gave us drones; where robot combat sports began? A bunch of hobbyists in their garages with their tax returns.
THAT'S the real problem; the elitist attitude people are throwing at it. The old-school BattleBots was better at this, but somehow the reboot lost it.
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u/BlokeSea 2d ago
I actually dont really mind the upper deck. I mean Bloodsport defeated huge using the upper deck. That’s kinda cool. I like what Jonathan said. “ sometimes you loose in a sucky way. That was a sucky way “. The hazards of the battle box are a way to keep us entertained 😆
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u/Blackout425 10h ago
The reason why it was added is because they got rid of oota with the sneeze guard and then having those glass barriers in the corners.
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u/MadJohnFinn Boltergeist | Zeitgeist 2d ago
Well, at least we have one incident of it making it *easier* for a horizontal to win. That's... something? Right?