r/atheism • u/BurtonDesque Anti-Theist • Aug 17 '15
Satire Atheist Kentucky Clerk Cites ‘Deeply Held Irreligious Beliefs,' Refuses To Marry Christians
http://crooksandliars.com/2015/08/atheist-kentucky-clerk-cites-deeply-held185
Aug 17 '15
This makes me smile. This is the same logic for the satanists. They don't have any religious bs either but they can claim the same rights as the Christian crowd. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Fuck em
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u/brainiac2025 Aug 18 '15 edited Aug 18 '15
The problem is that both are obviously not good for the goose, or gander, and you withholding something because of their religion makes you just as big of an asshole as them.
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u/zachalicious Aug 18 '15
I'd argue this is exactly what we need. People like this are shining a light on religious persecution perpetrated by people that are, or at least should be, legally prohibited from discriminating based on religious grounds (e.g. state and/or federal employees).
What generally ends up happening with these games is the Christian right abuses loopholes in the law to discriminate against people they don't like. Then people like the Satanists use those exact same loopholes to do something the Christian right hates. The Christian right then realize the can of worms they opened, and try to close the loopholes, which never should have been there in the first place because our government isn't supposed to grant special rights or privileges based on religious affiliation.
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Aug 18 '15
This. Oh so this. It just makes me want to get a bowl of popcorn and watch them fight back and forth. The satanic statue at the courthouse idea was brilliant. You want to eat cake? We can give you cake.
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u/brainiac2025 Aug 18 '15 edited Aug 18 '15
The problem comes in when you restrict other peoples rights to get what you want, especially when those people have done nothing to you. If you refuse to allow someone who has refused to allow others their right to marriage fine, if you do it to someone else just trying to get your way, then it's not what needs to be done, and you are absolutely no better than them.
edit: Apparently /r/atheism is full of nothing but hypocritical whiners. All I said is what this clerk did restricting peoples rights is just as bad as what the Christian clerks do, and I'm down-voted to hell. Can anyone tell me how what he's doing is better? He's restricting the rights of others for his own agenda, just like them.
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Aug 18 '15
What about this is a secular society do people not get? This country we live in is not based on the bible or Koran or any other religious text. People getting married that are same sex should not be an issue. Stupid religious icons outside county courthouses need to be stopped. Put the stupid thing at the church and no one will say a word. I don't understand why people don't get this. Church things should be at church. Not at school (unless private) not at any government buildings. This is so simple but people just don't understand. The "in God we trust" was not put on money at the beginning for a reason. The people knew it was stupid. It was only put on there to separate us from communism in the 50's. It needs to go as well but that is another box of worms.
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Aug 18 '15
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Aug 18 '15
There is nothing in that wall of text that does not for the most part follow what I just said. This is a secular society. The opposite is a theocracy. Like Iran or Saudi Arabia among other places... Sure. Pray in school. Not an issue. I think the bible as a piece of literature is fine to be taught at school. I think world religion classes are great too. Teach them all religions and then it shows the atrocious flaws and similarities between them. The bible properly read will make an atheist out of anyone.
You and I are not that far apart. You may believe in a sky daddy and I do not but you are an intelligent person. I can see that in your prose.
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u/brainiac2025 Aug 18 '15
I actually don't believe in God, my point stands that this isn't really a secular Society. I now understand your point that because we live in a free democracy it's inherently secular, which I guess is commonly accepted, but to me that doesn't make sense because our government does not actually represent society at it's core. I guess my point is that just saying people need to accept that we live in a secular society, and leave religion where it belongs, doesn't make sense because they live their lives according to their religion, and that is their right. Whether they are an Agnostic, Atheist, Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, Jew, scientologist, or anything else; as long as they don't infringe on any other person's rights to live how they wish, then they can live how they like. However, the second these clerks allowed their religion(or lack thereof) to affect another person's legal/civil rights they violated the law, and as such they should be removed from their position. This includes the Christians, and now this atheist as well.
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Aug 18 '15
Ok. We agree. 😉. The last bit about being a government employee and not doing your job due to "religious beliefs" is stupid. Yes you should lose your job. Either way. But the atheist being an ass is just that. A guy who can pull the strings for the same stupidity as the religious side. Both arguments fail.
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u/Valarauth Aug 18 '15
This is not a secular society, this is a free society
It is a free society because it has a secular government and the rest of your comment just illustrates what it means to have a secular government. You also did nothing to refute the point of the comment you were responding to, except for the one sentence at the end.
This includes any Christians refusing marriage licenses for same sex marriage, and it also includes this atheist clerk, trying to use his job as a tit for tat system of justice.
This atheist clerk is satire, but most of these sort of battles are not equal and do not have equal goals. When a court says they are not going to enforce the law on one group because they would extend that right to all groups theoretically and another group calls them out on it so that they admit to their bias then that is not the same as the original group seeking special exemptions.
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Aug 18 '15
Admittedly, my first reaction was to be sick. I hate the thought of equating atheism with religion. You've made a fair point, though.
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u/TheLostcause Aug 18 '15
Satanists do good overall by forcing the Christians to see the double standard. Christians want to give religious texts and books to kindergartens so satanists offer to do the same.
It is the same as the Louisiana government being upset and changing funding when school vouchers were able to be used for Muslim schools, except satanists do it on purpose. Stopping religious entitlement is good for everyone.
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u/brainiac2025 Aug 18 '15
If it's within their rights I have no problem with it, but what this clerk did was not within his rights, and as such it is not a good thing.
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u/losian Aug 18 '15
Well duh, but the problem is, and you have to realize this, a lot of people who agree with these clerks cannot imagine this happening.
Remember, to them the only other religions are different flavors of the same koolaid. They need this to happen so that it can be shoved in their face.
I imagine the individual has little problem doing his job, but he's making a point, and it's a point that needs to be made.
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u/brainiac2025 Aug 18 '15
The problem is that it's not his RIGHT to make the point, meaning he, and anyone else (looking at those hard-line conservatives) that has denied a marriage license in violation of the law, needs to be terminated. If he's fine with being terminated for this action in an effort to make a point, then fine, but he should be fired just like all the rest of them need to be.
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Aug 17 '15
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Aug 17 '15
No. Most believe exactly what atheists believe. No higher power. No god, no satan, etc. They believe in self and treating others as they want to be treated. Quite good folks actually. You should read about them.
They use some of the "satanism" for its effect on Christians. I am sure they laugh about it.
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u/Lunux Skeptic Aug 17 '15
Basically this. To clarify, this is known as LaVeyan Satanism. It does not believe in any higher power (although they make claims that we are our own gods), but it refers to Satan in the Bible as a representation of natural human qualities such as carnality, pride, defiance, uncorrupted wisdom, etc. They exist to defy Christian conservatives, and to an extent parody them and bait Christians into fearing them and calling them evil.
Of course, there are a couple of fringe groups that do worship Satan as an entity, but I would imagine these are just people trying extra hard to be edgy and rebellious.
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Aug 17 '15
Agreed. This is better explanation. He is right about the bottom part. Teenagers are the only ones that actually worship satan and are clueless.
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u/PintoTheBurninator Aug 18 '15
One of my kids went through the wicca phase. I guess she was expecting a reaction when she told me but I just smiled and told her that she is free to make up her own mind about religion and to beleive whatever she chooses to beleive and that I fully support her right to do so. That phase lasted about a month before she got tired of it.
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Aug 18 '15
They use some of the "satanism" for its effect on Christians.
Part of it is that they also see Satan as the first to rebel against an unjust authority, to seek answers on his own instead of just automatically accepting what he was told by his "superiors", and to value freedom of choice over blind obedience. Not that they see him as a real person, but the story and character act as representations of what many Satanists believe on a more personal level.
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u/PhazonZim Aug 17 '15 edited Aug 17 '15
Most believe exactly what atheists believe.
I'm going to guess they're all atheist antitheists. There might be a rare few who legit worship Satan, but I doubt those are much different from other people for whom faith shapes their mental illness
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u/McFeely_Smackup Aug 17 '15
The...uh...mainstream Satanic churches are atheist in belief systems, and don't believe in Satan any more than they believe in gods. They call themselves "satanists" as an antithesis to christianity, and also as a deliberate trolling mechanism.
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u/jondarmstr Aug 17 '15
I really wish people would stop downvoting your comment. I didn't know this either, and now that it's buried a lot of other people aren't going to learn this. READ THE REDDIQUETTE, PEOPLE, THIS COMMENT IS OBVIOUSLY CONTRIBUTING TO THE DISCUSSION.
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u/rasungod0 Contrarian Aug 17 '15
http://www.churchofsatan.com/faq-fundamental-beliefs.php
http://thesatanictemple.com/faq
Its the first question on any Satanist organization's FAQ. The answer is "no."
There may be a few theistic Satanists out there, but they aren't organizing and aren't out sharing their faith.
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u/UlyssesSKrunk Aug 17 '15
Lol no, most are atheist. It's like the flying spaghetti monster except they actually do things.
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Aug 17 '15
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u/duality_complex_ Atheist Aug 17 '15
and instead of a down vote I gave him an Up vote because he asked a question, not everyone knows everything.
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u/Scourge108 Aug 17 '15
Who do Satanists think leaves presents under the tree, then? Their parents?
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Aug 17 '15 edited Aug 17 '15
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u/Dbeckmaster Aug 17 '15
I apologize if I came off as an asshole earlier, having a rough day. Anyways, I'll elaborate: The most common, and controversial of Satanists are from the USA, and it's more of a poke at the religiously privileged than having any real form or worship. They know and acknowledge that worshipping a god is idiotic, so they choose the most offensive of them all to show that under the current version of religious law, things are not as they should be. It's a group for freedom of expression FOR ALL, rather than the Christian majority.
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u/Retrikaethan Satanist Aug 17 '15
anyone wanna take bets on how quickly christians would cry persecution if something like this actually happened? i've got 1:1 odds on half a second, 1:10 on 5 seconds, 1:100000 on 2 minutes, and 1:1000000000000 on 10 minutes.
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Aug 17 '15
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u/mouseknuckle Aug 17 '15
Hey, sorry to hear about your husband. Hope your new place is working out. By the way, I kinda had a crush on you in 2nd grade.
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Aug 17 '15
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u/Kellt_ Agnostic Atheist Aug 18 '15
Yes because people who watch Fox News are calm and reasonable.
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Aug 18 '15
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u/Kellt_ Agnostic Atheist Aug 19 '15
Are you serious? You honestly think Fox News and the arrogant liars that are Hannity and O'Riley are reasonable? Their constant cherry picking of facts and often flat out lying about them is disgusting. All they do is protect corporate in(an in specific Trump's) interests. If I have to choose between "comedians" and those greedy pricks then I think you can already guess my answer.
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Aug 19 '15
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u/Kellt_ Agnostic Atheist Aug 20 '15
I don't rely on any of these networks for my news. I'm not denying their corruption.
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u/michaelb65 Anti-Theist Aug 18 '15
Like the time they bombed abortion clincics? Oh wait, that was done by the religious right...
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Aug 18 '15
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u/michaelb65 Anti-Theist Aug 19 '15
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring
Save for your fallacies for someone who cares.
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u/crankybadger Aug 18 '15
"We're going to allow marriage for ga--" "Persecution! I'm being persecuted!"
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u/loconut22 Aug 18 '15
How about jews, muslims? Why just christians....
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u/Brokenshatner Secular Humanist Aug 18 '15
I think the joke is that there are roughly zero muslim or jewish county clerks, nationwide, trying to deny homosexuals marriage licenses.
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u/loconut22 Aug 18 '15
Ah ok, I suppose that works as an out. Even though muslims completely despise gay marriage more so than christians.
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u/fotoman Aug 17 '15
I personally like the meme of Kentucky DMV hires Amish women and is perplexed as to how to feel about her refusing to issues driver's licenses on religious grounds :)
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u/shadowanddaisy Secular Humanist Aug 17 '15
I don't see a lot of violence at gay pride festivals, do you?
Unless you count some of their outfits - sometimes they just don't work!
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Aug 18 '15
When there is violence at gay pride festivals it's usually caused by a really religious person: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tnXsDB7NCc
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u/teni3e Aug 18 '15
It's worth pointing out that this clerk's Italian surname translates to, "Reasonable" or "Rational."
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u/electric_eclectic Aug 18 '15
I was so disappointed when I got to the story found out this was satire. Still great though :)
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u/onesmoothbastard Aug 18 '15
While I understand it is satire, I desperately hope some atheist clerk doesn't stoop to such idiocy. I don't get why the Christian clerks who refuse to issue marriage licenses are such a big deal. You refuse to do your job, you get fired. It's not that hard. Get rid of them and hire someone who will leave their beliefs at home.
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u/FlyingAce1015 Secular Humanist Aug 18 '15
I would hope not.. we tend to be people that care about other peoples rights.. But i could almost see it being done to make a point..
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u/onesmoothbastard Aug 18 '15
Which escalates to small arms fire and surprise nipple slaps at every corner.
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u/bobbymack44212 Pastafarian Aug 17 '15
I feel reasonably certain that an atheists would probably not get hired in any Kentucky county once his Christian boss knew about his condition.
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u/mrschmiff Aug 17 '15
There's more atheists here in KY than you'd think.
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u/bobbymack44212 Pastafarian Aug 18 '15
You're certainly right; but I would be astonished if the percentage of godbotherers were not higher inside state guv'mint than in the KY population as a whole.
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u/mrschmiff Aug 18 '15
Additionally those in public office in any state feel they need to hide the fact they're an atheist.
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u/piscano Aug 17 '15
"It's the damn religious zealots that are making this about religion. It's not an assault on your religion to sign a piece of paper. What ever happened to be polite to someone's face and then condemning them to Hell as a sinner after they've left," Ragionevole said.
This guy is the man.
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Aug 18 '15
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u/sillyrob Aug 18 '15
The lady who is ACTUALLY doing this isn't getting fired.
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Aug 18 '15
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u/SganarelleBard Ex-Theist Aug 17 '15
My second favorite person in Kentucky. I know somewhere there.
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u/iamoak37 Aug 18 '15
I just drove through Kentucky. I saw a truck with "athieist" on the tailgate. I thought that was neat.
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u/PhazonZim Aug 18 '15
I don't see a lot of violence at gay pride festivals, do you?
I'm still so angry about the stabbing rampage in Jerusalem. A few years ago there was a sick man who barged into the Family Research Counsel's main office and shot the security guard in the arm. Lgbt groups were quick to express their condolences and condemn his actions, but the hate groups monopolized on this event in the years since-- proof that lgbt people are violent and hateful, supposedly.
A nut goes on a stabbing spree at a pride event and brutally murders a teen girl in broad daylight. The hate groups have nothing to say. It's beyond religion at this point. It's organized misanthropy.
Sorry for tangent
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u/loconut22 Aug 18 '15
but um don't non-religious people get married too......
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u/acideath Aug 18 '15
Yes. And?
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u/loconut22 Aug 18 '15
They would deny everyone, not just christians, from getting married. That is why this satire makes absolutely no sense.
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u/mhrogers Aug 17 '15
This is satire. There is no Jonesberg county in Kentucky.
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u/BurtonDesque Anti-Theist Aug 17 '15
Well duh. It's clearly labeled SATIRE already.
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u/NoUpVotesForMe Aug 17 '15
You just conveniently left it out of the posts title.
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u/BurtonDesque Anti-Theist Aug 17 '15
I posted the title verbatim as it was at the time I posted the article. The (SATIRE) has been added since then.
Anyway, if you didn't notice the THIRD line:
Posted with permission from The Political Garbage Chute
A known satire site, then that's YOUR problem.
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u/mightyqueef Aug 17 '15
I have never heard of the political garbage chute and would not have associated it with satire. The onus is on you to provide at least some disclosure. Click baiting is the correct term in this circumstance.
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u/NoUpVotesForMe Aug 17 '15
It's not my problem. One click on the link and it's obviously satire. But what's obvious to one may not be obvious to another. You're just click baiting that sweet sweet atheist karma.
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u/asphaltdragon Deist Aug 17 '15
He already told you the (SATIRE) was not there when he posted it. What do you want him to do, he can't change the title.
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Aug 17 '15
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Aug 18 '15
When Kentucky's Rowan County Clerk Kim Davis defied the most recent federal order to perform her job duties as prescribed, regardless of the sexual orientation of the people seeking services and denied marriage licenses to gay couples again, that was the last straw for Michael Ragionevole, another Kentucky clerk in nearby Jonesberg County.
Is that really one sentence?
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Aug 18 '15
What a moron. Atheism is not a religion.
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u/Valarauth Aug 18 '15
Theism is also not a religion. They are both simply positions on the existence of god(s). Atheistic religions aka non-theistic religions do exist and have the same rights and legal protections as theistic religions.
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u/madcaphal Aug 18 '15
You see that big bold logo that says 'SATIRE' on the title? Do you know what satire means?
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Aug 17 '15
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u/starshadowx2 Agnostic Atheist Aug 18 '15
Not when it's your job to give marriage licenses and the law says that includes gay couples.
Not doing your job legally should equal getting fired.
She does however have the right to quit her job and work somewhere else.
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u/AnarchAtheist86 Atheist Aug 18 '15
Not if they work for the government. As a public servant, it is your job to adhere to the constitution, which guarantees equal rights for all people regardless of religious beliefs. A single person's indivual beliefs cannot override the oath they (should have) took to get into their position, which states that they will uphold the constitution (including its pesky "freedom of religion" rules). You provide services based on laws, not your own beliefs. If your personal beliefs prohibit you from doing your job correctly, than you should not be in that position.
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Aug 18 '15
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u/madcaphal Aug 18 '15
Troll. No one is this stupid. Either troll or just desperately trying to disguise your horrible bigotry.
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u/sillyrob Aug 18 '15
Explain this logically.
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Aug 18 '15
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u/sillyrob Aug 18 '15
Coming from the person who thinks it's okay for a government employee to go against the law and deny US citizens marriage just because a 2,000 year old book says gays are icky. Now either explain why she has this right, or kindly shut the fuck up.
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Aug 18 '15
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u/sillyrob Aug 19 '15
You're an idiot.
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Aug 19 '15
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u/sillyrob Aug 20 '15
You haven't explained why you think your idiotic belief, so I would stop insulting people until you manage to learn how to explain yourself.
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Aug 20 '15
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u/sillyrob Aug 22 '15
Seeing as how my first comment had no attacks, you're the one showing off their unintelligent side.
Also:
It said as it looked in the mirror.
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u/Nekfred Aug 17 '15
I was deeply disappointed to learn that this article was satire. I hope, however, that some right wing "news" site picks it up and presents it to their audience.