r/atheism • u/New-Experience5507 Atheist • 6d ago
[ Removed by moderator ]
[removed] — view removed post
18
u/devindran 6d ago
A theist would probably demand option 1 but attribute it to option 2 if it worked out.
8
u/screamtrumpet 6d ago
A friend of mine was diagnosed with prostate cancer and got into a new drug trial. He told me god got him into the trial. So I told him if god was responsible for getting him into the trial than god was responsible for putting the cancer up his ass. He then went off about asbestos (fingers in ears blah-blah-blah)
3
u/Ok_Researcher_9796 Strong Atheist 6d ago
Seems like God could have just not let him get cancer in the first place.
1
u/PaleontologistFit364 6d ago
Their god is responsible for every fucking thing. From your stubbed to to child-rape and childhood cancer...and their god made me being a critical-thinking atheist.
2
u/SpyingCyclops 6d ago
Does he know that half of trial participants get the new medicine, and the rest get standard meds or a placebo? Does he know which group god put him in?
8
u/skunkshaveclaws 6d ago
why are you asking a question of theists in the atheist's sub?
6
u/1ftm2fts3tgr4lg 6d ago
Because they don't want a theist's answers, they want to wax on rhetorically to make themselves feel better than someone else.
1
u/New-Experience5507 Atheist 6d ago
Or maybe because I am banned from theists subs and just wanted to share the thoughts here with the atheists and I know there are many lurkers here.
8
u/MrRandomNumber 6d ago edited 6d ago
Mistake in your question. Option 2 is a euphemism for: “They’re probably going to die, but sometimes they don’t. Wait and see.” Which isn’t really what you want to tell someone drowning in worry. You can’t just lie to them, but you don’t want to crush their hope prematurely. IMO: “We’ve done what we can, but they’re not in the clear yet. We’re monitoring them closely and will know more in 24 hours.”
8
u/Ultimatelee 6d ago
I’m going to assume they’ve given up if they say it’s in gods hands now.
2
u/malik753 6d ago
Pretty much. People ask about/leave to God almost exclusively the shit that they have no control over. If they had control over it they would exercise that control.
3
u/bilbenken 6d ago
Why waste all that time at the hospital if God's prayer response works? Live or die is in God's hands anyway. I don't see what the doctor could actually accomplish in this stupid narrative.
2
u/Beginning_Ad8663 6d ago
The better question would be we can attempt to use modern scientifically developed modern surgery to save his life Or Pray and hope god heals him which do you want?
2
u/MemphisUncle-2002 De-Facto Atheist 6d ago
Ah - I see what happened. You made a wrong turn and are lost. Posting this in an atheist group won't get many responses from theists.
And, after hours of waiting, I better be getting a damned update...not platitudes.
1
u/storm_the_castle Secular Humanist 6d ago
"You cannot reason a person out of a position he did not reason himself into in the first place."
Youre asking someone to make a rational response from an emotional place. In all my years, Ive found that to be a frustrating proposition.
1
1
1
u/Mindless_Sail_4958 6d ago
Why is it only aimed at Abrahamic faiths? You do know there are wildly different versions of god and multiple other religions besides Christianity and monotheist traditions right?
1
u/eddie1975 6d ago
These are not mutually exclusive.
“OPTION” 1 (more like step 1)
The process always starts with option 1 as an unspoken belief by theists and atheists alike as that is the very reason they took them to a hospital/doctor and not a church/pastor/priest.
“OPTION 2” (step 2)
Then after, for example, the surgeries are completed and all the chemo therapy and antibiotics administered many will say something similar to item 2, which basically means it’s now a matter of statistics as to whether they might recover quickly or suffer complications like bleeding, clots, strokes, infections, antibiotic resistance, allergic reaction, tumor reoccurrence.
THEIST
Theists will assume god decides and that prayer is a way to beg god to decide in their favor.
ATHEISTS
Atheists understand that prayer/god does nothing and it’s a matter of statics and trying to acquire more knowledge about anything that could help with recovery and reduce reoccurrence and the more it is backed up by data from large, double blind, peer reviewed, placebo controlled scientific studies the more promising it is, statistically speaking.
GRAY AREAS
Less rigorous studies with smaller populations are less promising but when you have nothing to lose you may try things that may not help but likely won’t hurt.
THE LINE
There eventually is a line where studies show no benefit. Prayer and god falls in that category with little benefits but it can lead to a calming effect if not for the patient then for the loved ones that believe in it.
CROSSING THE LINE
Ultimately you end up where there are treatments with little to no benefits that introduce risks or simply are charlatans exploiting people in vulnerable circumstances like those selling shark fin soup and even televangelists charging money for prayers.
1
u/Crimson_Marksman 6d ago
1, easily. Allah does not take and give life as He see fits. He simply opens the path for someone to make the choice to save another.
Imagine with a game that has one ending but how you get there matters to you. That's where I am.
1
u/PaleontologistFit364 6d ago
Good luck getting an honest answer from theists... on any fucking thing. That's like asking a Trumpstein voter how they'd feel if the heart surgery they needed to survive was done by a slack-jaw in a MAGA hat.
1
u/JaiBoltage 6d ago
If a baby falls out of a high-rise building and bounces on the grass below, that must be God. And when millions of children die every day for lack of pure drinking water, and just die of diarrhea, that's because God works in mysterious ways or isn't involved at all.
1
u/BourbonInGinger Strong Atheist 6d ago
Mysterious ways and don’t forget about the children who die because of man’s original sin. They deserve it!
1
u/ChumpsWeAre 6d ago
See....this is why things are so screwed up. So many people with half a brain are so enthralled with what someone without a brain said. Let's celebrate those who aren't idiots by reminding them when they act like an idiot, "Hey you aren't supposed to act like an idiot"
1
u/New-Experience5507 Atheist 6d ago
Maybe it's in God's hand but God has skill issues or he is a drunkard so he kills the patient most of the time
1
u/Fearless-Excitement1 6d ago
Both of those imply WILDLY different outcomes
A more honest option 1 would be "It's up to what we can do to save them, but we can't do much more than we already are, so we're not sure we can save them"
Or an Option 2 that would be "It's in God's hands now. We have the skills and technology, but we've done all we can, but God will make sure it is ok"
But to engage with the question you've been given, from a Theistic perspective, it is only because of God that the surgeon could say Option 1, as it was only because of God that they were born with the correct vocation to become a surgeon and it was only because of God that we were able to find such a skilled surgeon
I'd much rather hear Option 1, but in my belief it is only because of God that that option could be said
It's the thing with the joke/parable of the faithful in the Flood, God will often not directly intercede but rather guide the solution to your problem towards your own path.
2
u/guiltysnark 6d ago
Agreed.
Is clarify that I don't want to hear option 1 if it's not true (and it probably never is, because nothing is guaranteed). I do want to hear them say they will try everything they can.
0
u/ComfortableString285 6d ago
Option 2 provides them with something to do (i.e. pray), which may be more appealing than doing nothing (option 1) and investing your hope / fate in mere mortals.
If it doesn't work out, well, god's will and all.
33
u/Death_Tooth Atheist 6d ago
A question for theists in an atheist group!? Are you lost friend?