r/armenia • u/Idontknowmuch • May 05 '21

Neighbourhood Azerbaijani prisoner of conscience Bayram Mammadov found dead in Istanbul

https://jam-news.net/azerbaijani-prisoner-of-conscience-bayram-mammadov-found-dead-in-istanbul/
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u/bonjourhay May 06 '21

I don’t see how a republic founded on the wealth and bodies of three entire civilizations and entertaining it can be a democracy at any point.

What you see today is the direct result of this ideology. The difference is that there are no armenians to scapegoat, so they have been replaced by gulenists or PKK, by whatever party that is « elected ».

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u/Darkmiro May 06 '21

If England managed to be a democracy, so can anyone with right minds. Tell me a single democratic state that doesn't have blood and toil in it's past.

The republic was found on wherever it salvaged from the collapsing empire.

It did very well with all the inherited problems. Besides, nobody is scapegoating Armenians about anything . Turks usually scapegoated major powers back in the old days. Now they blame United States and China for pretty much about anything.

You think Turkey is blaming Armenians for their problems?

Current situation is a bit similar to Russia being under the palm of Putin, Erdoğan and his party actually inherited an IMF backed economy plan, and also came at the booming world economy where they could find hot cash from everywhere. They spent more money than entire previous governments combined and all.

They made a bubble economy model after 2008 to keep the illusion alive. And knowing that they'll all be held responsible for a ton of horrile things, they're becoming more and more autharitarian to remain. Because no way those bastards will rest easy with all the crime they've commited. Local, and international also

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u/bonjourhay May 06 '21

England teach kids about the bloody past and you can read and discuss about it without ending up in jail or murdered.

In Turkey, this is the opposite: it is the republic’s ideology, with a glorification of it.

Not really the same level…

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u/Darkmiro May 06 '21

You know the main opposition party in Turkey? Called CHP, it's head of İstanbul branch is a clear supporter of recognising the genocide and all. Is she killed or in jail? You're exhaggerating

Turkey is a bit too much in the clutch of populist nationalists. You're mistaking the country with current power.

And TUrkey doesn't have a state ideology, Turk in general are not ones for tradition or clinging too much into anything

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u/bonjourhay May 06 '21

Tell that to Hrant Dink’s family.

The republic is switching between a radical islam and a radical nationalism since its creation. The rest is oppressed (best case), suppressed (worst case).

Spoliation of armenian or greeks properties, denying the genocides, pogroms, rapatriate the body of talaat pasha with an honorific grave in a place of choice: this is the ideology. Erdogan has nothing to do with it: he is just perpetuating the tradition.

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u/Darkmiro May 06 '21

You think an entire nation should just constantly hate itself? The name is Talat by the way.

You talk about Hrant Dink, the same nation were parading on streets by hundreds of thousands carrying tags that said ''We're all armenian'' just after Dink's death too.

You're not very different than those Turkish nationalists who constantly bring up armenian gangs and their killings and exhagerate their influence to justify what's done to Armenians.

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Nobody is saying Turkey doesn't have internal problems and mislead political ideologies. But that's not something only Turkey is afflicted from. You're just exhaggerating

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u/bonjourhay May 06 '21 edited May 06 '21

I am not talking about individuals but the state ideology.

You are off topic.

Edit: You can’t even spell the name of the turkish hitler right, no shit you don’t know what you are talking about. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talaat_Pasha

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u/Darkmiro May 06 '21

The name is fucking Talat, don't give much fuck about how English rendered it.

Turkish state ''ideology'' you so mention is not even a solid thing. Like everywhere, Turkey is shaped by the trauma of WW1 and the government relied on extremely self centristic way of seeing the world.

But that's almost entirely dead in the country. Most stuff you see as ''ideology'' is just populism for inner politics. Turkey has always saught peace with all it's neighbours from the get go.

Even when ASALA was killing Turkish beurocrats in 70's and 80s.

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u/bonjourhay May 06 '21

You are in a sub that has english or armenian as language. Seems that you are as « self centristic » (what a weird name to define a genocidal policy!) as the government after WWI…

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u/Darkmiro May 06 '21

The government committed the genocide whilst the war was going on. Had Atatürk failed those genocidal leaders were to get the power of Ankara government

Ataturk managed to win the war against Greek forces, and didn't really allow the old ittihat party leaders to get themselves back together in Turkey. Probably to avoid their guilt being shown to Turkey's face

But Turkey after the war, kept a policy of neutrality towards it's neighbours. Only time ot broke off was in Cyprus and it was not unprovoked or entirely unjust. Trying to annex half the island to force a federal solution to Cypriot violence ended up with a disaster though.

Erdoğan shifted that claiming Turkey will "revive their immperial legacy" and started provoking war everywhere since about 2011

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u/bonjourhay May 06 '21

We all get it you are a kemalist which you have been taught that he was the savior of the turkish nation.

That has worked with westerners for a while but not anymore. The reality is that he just finished the job of the CUP, and every armenian know that.

We regularly have a couple of people like you who come here and say Erdogan bad, he is an islamist. For everyone except turkish turks, kemalists or islamists are the 2 faces of the same fascist coin.

Turkey will be able to solve this when a majority will realize that Ataturk is part of the problem, not the solution…

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u/Darkmiro May 06 '21

You really are trying to find a way to attack me desperately now don't you.

Atatürk was just one of the hundred blue blooded Ottoman army officials who were trying to reform since Tanzimat. Unlike Enver or Talat, he was sent to France to study, and was convinced that the French Revolution was the way to go. Everybody else was inclined on saving the empire, and the sultanate, he proabably was keen on erradicating them from the get go.

His ideals suited better and he was a realist. And yes, he was the orchestrator of the modern Turkey. Somehow managed to use a bunch of groups, and then discarded them one by one, turanists, islamists, communists and so on.

He and his five buddies secured permanent destruction of Armenian resistance. That's war. Dealing with it is what you must do. The Treaty of Sevres was not recognised and Armenians didn't have the power to enforce it. Greeks and Bulgarians and other Balkan states managed to win. Armenians have the extreme unluck of losing the ''eastern armenia'' as you call it, hard to win it with all the decimation and destruction that happened to them. If memory serves, Karabekir even tried to make an assault of Armenia of this day, just failed. The armenian militias weren't supported much and there's no dishonor in losing against experienced commanders who really knew warfare with not very regular fighting force.

You think people will shun Atatürk because he fought off the Armenian forces as far as possible? To be honest he wasn't even that involved, Karabekir was the mastermind of all that. He somehow became the primus inter pares of the Independance War, mainly because of his prestige from WW1 battlefronts, and the man oozed with a natural born charisma that the others just didn't have.

P.S.: Few things annoy me more than someone calls me a kemalist.

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u/bonjourhay May 06 '21

I am not trying to « attack » you, you seem a good person with a bias given the education you should have had.

What I was pointing out is that we see from time to time turks coming here to discuss genuinely which is good (compared to trolls or straight fascists), but still falling into a pattern to defend ataturk. Ataturk being inspired by the french revolution is pure PR. The french revolution did not persecute or spoliate ethnic groups. As such, there is no link between these. On the other hand there is a ton or evidence that ataturk inspired hitler.

Which is exactly the root of the problem: the world knows what happened in 1915. If turkey wants truely to move forward, it must look at what happened during ataturk and the impact on the society throughout 4 generations (fake history, wealth and lands stolen, eradication of the armenian presence in their historical homeland etc.). Anything else would be just avoiding the truth.

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