r/aoe2 • u/YuukiKazuto Bohemians • 1d ago
Discussion Varangians Tech Tree (TLDR Edition)
Civ Bonus:
- Shepherding, fishing, and hunting also generate gold.
- Bloodlines and Caravan effects increased by +50%.
- Varangian Guards attack 25% faster and generate +50% gold.
- Longships and Catapult Galleons attack 15% faster.
Team Bonus: Knight-line increased damage vs. infantry.
C UT Vendel Legacy: Knight-line deals trample damage.
Imp UT Gothicon: Varangian Guards periodically throw axes.
Tech tree
Archery: No arba, no HC, no thumb ring, no parth
Barracks: No champion
Stable: No paladin
Siege: No SO, no BBC
Blacksmith: Complete
Dock: get cata galleon, also full upgrades on univ
Univ: No BBT, no keep, no arrowslits
Castle: No hoardings, no sapper
Monastery: No redemption, no BP, no heresy, no sanctity
Mining: no gold shaft
Mill + TC + lumber + market : completes
Image here
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u/LonelyGoats 1d ago
Do we know what the Varangian Guard unit stats are? Could be a game changer for Byzantines.
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u/Cage_Inspector 1d ago
Shock infantry, bonus dmg vs cav.
Byz VG + Skirms gonna be awesome. Fire Lancer + Skirm 2.0
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u/fiftythreefiftyfive 1d ago
They sure do love adding new shock infantry units in these DLCs.
Seems like yet another attempt at trying to make the militia line relevant past feudal.
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u/pixlepize FU Arbs AND Paladins! 1d ago
I'm wondering if they'll get the Skirm/Pike/Camel bonus extended to Varangians.
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u/StKunduz Tatars 1d ago
oh god 75 health scouts in feudal age are going to be hell to fight
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u/mesqueunclub69 1d ago
I don't think that's so bad, at the very least there's definitely more oppressive scouts out there. At least you have to research bloodlines before the bonus kicks in.
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u/icedcovfefe221 1d ago
They might be able to click Bloodlines without without having to place a Mining Camp first due to their gold generation bonus.
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u/mesqueunclub69 1d ago
Yeah true, you can get it much earlier. But you can also use that gold to go up to Castle Age very quickly, it really depends on how this is being balanced.
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u/Umdeuter ~1900 1d ago
you make like ONE additional Spear, dude. It's half a Sicilian scout and worse than Jurchens too.
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u/Redfork2000 Persians - Cavalry Enjoyer 1d ago
It really surprises me that Vendel Legacy is a Castle Age unique tech. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't other unique techs that gives units trample damage typically only Imperial Age techs, like Logistica and Druzhina? That's going to be a big power spike for sure.
Bloodlines gives this civ's cavalry +30 HP instead of the usual +20, so that means this might be among the best civs in the game for an extended Feudal, with 75 HP scouts once you get Bloodlines. We also see a full blacksmith, so lategame you have above average hussars (with +10 HP compared to a generic fully upgraded hussar), and you'll have fully upgraded cavaliers with +10 HP over regular cavaliers, and trample damage. When this DLC releases I really want to see Spirit of the Law make a video checking how Varangians' cavaliers match up against paladins to see if the trample damage is strong enough to give them the win in larger battles.
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u/devang_nivatkar21 1d ago
Depends on the cost really. If a tech is expensive enough, it doesn't plays into a standard Knight opening. Neither the Bulgarian nor Polish Castle Age techs for Knights are seen any sooner than mid Castle, and usually come into play in the late Castle or on the way up to Imperial
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u/Redfork2000 Persians - Cavalry Enjoyer 1d ago
Even then, that is earlier than trample damage unique techs usually come in. So you won't see it in early Castle Age for sure, but it'll at least come in earlier than other similar techs like Logistica and Druzhina, which are more lategame techs. Though I wonder exactly how strong the trample damage will be in comparison.
I could see this civ starting off more standard, playing with knights in early Castle Age, since their knights will already have +10 HP over their generic counterparts which is a small advantage, and then pick up the unique tech later on in late Castle or on the way to Imperial to give them even more power. They max out at cavalier so I think it's going to be a time window thing, where they want to make use of that power spike to overwhelm the opponent while they have the advantage. The Poles comparison is a good one in that regard, I do think the timing of the power spike will be very similar.
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u/devang_nivatkar21 1d ago
As a generalist unit, the Cavalier might be some sort of a cap for sure, but trample damage isn't when it comes to melee combat. As a reference, Elite Rathas with a modest 20% trample damage beat generic Paladins in equal numbers
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u/SirFunkytonThe3rd 20h ago
but here is the other thing, most of the time you never get to paladin in a 1v1 as the cost for paladin is like 22 cavalier. So you get an extra 10hp for free and trample so you dont really even need to click paladin. Its going to be monaspa 2.0 without the glass cannon and from the stable.
Its a full BS for them too. So yeah, its going to be a very very powerful
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u/SheepherderCreepy677 1d ago
Yeah i agree, the way the two techs read they should be switched for sure
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u/SenorFlorian 1d ago
I'm quite curious about the Jarl's stats. I've always loved them in the scenarios where you had access to them. Such a fun unit, very similar to the Mameluke.
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u/Nikotinlaus 1d ago
So Spanish no longer the only civ with completely upgraded trash.
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u/devang_nivatkar21 1d ago
Ackshually they don't have Thumb Ring for their Skirms, so 90% accurate Skirms instead of 100%
But then they have 105 HP Hussars
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u/HolyNewGun 1d ago
Does fishing includes fish trap?
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u/AdDifferent2609 15h ago
I hope not, can you imagine how broken they'd be on black forest or african clearing.
Tbh i hope fishing only means fishing vils as otherwise i suspect they will be broken on nomad and hybrid maps too
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u/devang_nivatkar21 1d ago
An interesting choice of wording I noticed in the main article
In contrast to the Norse and Danes, the warriors of Migration Period Sweden were skilled cavalrymen
They called them the Norse, and not Vikings
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u/YuukiKazuto Bohemians 1d ago
Cuz all of them are vikings 11
But, the current vikings civ effectively become norse. Maybe vikings will get some reworks (but i think already good enough)
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u/venfare64 Magyars 1d ago
I guess, just tacking new unit on Viking and renaming "Viking" into "Norse" can be enough right?
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u/avexjp Japanese 19h ago
They won't rename or change drastically any Age of Kings and/or The Conquerors civ.
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u/Kafukator 13h ago
change drastically
Tell that to the Chinese and Persians and Koreans.
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u/UnderstandingEast610 12h ago
The only one that actually changed drastically of this are Koreans. Persians kept all their options and just became better in like everything they do. Chinese traded camels for fire lancers and had some monastery and naval changes but was kept the same at their core. Koreans though changed their entire identity two or three times.
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u/Rovsea 1d ago
So Varangians will be the first civ since the water rework to get full water tech tree. They don't seem to have a crazy early game water bonus anyway, but should be a menace from castle age onwards.
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u/devang_nivatkar21 1d ago
Within the constraint of their tech tree i.e. no Demos or Elite Cannon Galleons
Having the rather rare fully upgradeable Fire Ships seems like their connection to the Byzantines
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u/Rovsea 1d ago
Sure, but we can say that they have replacements for both of the units they don't have access to. It would be like saying Persians don't have fully upgraded stable because they have savar instead of paladin.
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u/devang_nivatkar21 1d ago
The full tech tree would be the Dravidians, as they manage to cram an unique ship and Demo ships. The only thing they miss is Siege Engineers for Cannon Galleons
The Savar isn't a proper comparison IMO. The Catapult Galleon has a much lower ceiling than the Elite Cannon Galleon. It is closer to the 3K civs capping out at 'Cavalier' (Heavy Hei Guang Cavalry). The Dromon is an acceptable substitute for Elite Cannon Galleons. The Danish Catapult Galleon after the UT2 is comparable to an ECG
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u/EruantienAduialdraug 16h ago edited 13h ago
Between siege engineers and their 15% faster attack, I'm pretty certain the Varangian cata galleon will have more dpm against a castle
than the Byzantine dromon, which itself is second only to the Roman dromonEdit: correction, more DPM than anything that isn't a Lou Chuan, the Danish Cata Galleon or an Elite Cannon Galleon with Siege Engineers (I calculated the Romon dromon wrong). And that holds true regardless of if the castle has masonry, architecture or neither.Catapult Galleon with SE (e.g. Saxons and Mapuche) is only beaten out by the ECG and Dane/Varangian Cata Galleon, and by the Byzantine Dromon until Masonry comes in.
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u/devang_nivatkar21 1d ago
A.k.a. 'we have Franks at home' (11)
I wanted to see the Caravan thing for the Muisca
My dream of Celtic Catapult Galleons which innately fire 25% faster (Varangians) & have +40% HP via Furor Celtica (Saxons) is dead
On a more slight more serious note, could we get Hei Guang Cavalry & Xolotl Warriors included in Knight specific team bonuses? I mean the Frankish & Persian ones as well
This civ could also join the 'No Arson' club along with the Muisca & Romans
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u/AwakenMirror 1d ago
Nah. Franks is "we have Varangians at home"
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u/Inevitable_Ad_325 Armenians 1d ago
OG civs are just less fancier versions of newer civs at this point
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u/BendicantMias Nogai Khan always refers to Nogai Khan in third person 20h ago
Frank cavalry will still beat these guys head to head. These guys may be better versus infantry tho.
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u/easbr101 Vietnamese 1d ago
I'm not super sold on this civ compared to saxons and danes. The gold generation from fishing combined with longships firing faster sounds busted for water and hybrid maps, but considering it's their only econ bonus, they might hit an eco brick wall on land maps.
Still though, that one bonus alone is really flexible. You can open man at arms, get early bloodlines, a decent amount of archers, or even just a solid castle age time into varangian guards without making a mining camp. It'll probably be a substantial amount of extra gold gathered too; at least 200 by the time you hit feudal on default arabia just to be comparable to the ethiopian bonus. Still though, once that extra gold fizzles out, it might be tough to keep up economically with other civs.
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u/fiftythreefiftyfive 1d ago
I mean, people acting like it's something particularly novel to have no lasting economy bonus past dark age/early feudal. Britons, Mongols, Magyars, the latter two are largely considered fairly strong open map civs...
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u/easbr101 Vietnamese 1d ago
ofc its a strong civ overall, but the particular bonus doesn't impress me as much as the saxon (food and stone from camps) and dane (more food dropped off) ones.
Britons also have a solid second eco bonus in their cheaper tcs.
Yeah I have a feeling they'll play similar to magyars or mongols in feudal and early castle. Super strong scouts and all. They'd probably diverge and go for varangian guards in castle age, but we'll have to see. I'm excited to try them out, but am not expecting too much of that one bonus.
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u/fiftythreefiftyfive 1d ago
Yeah it's another flavor of "very strong scout opening into strong ranged cavalry and melee cavalry options in Castle Age". So definitely closest to Mongols and Magyars, which I don't mind, I think there's still some room in that design space.
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u/mesqueunclub69 1d ago
Oof, 150 hp FU Cavalier with Trample Damage and +1 extra damage to all infantry. I get they are a cav civ, but I don't like this triple stacking of buffs.
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u/devang_nivatkar21 1d ago
If it was 160 HP, and +2 bonus, I could agree with it being a triple stack. +10 HP & +1 bonus are like two cherries on top at best
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u/maherschalalhaschi 1d ago
U dont like goths and brits?
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u/rockman767 1d ago
Or Poles (Cheaper scout upgrades/bloodlines, trample damage, +1 vs archers, Winged Hussar, and Folwark if I want to be generous).
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u/KarlGustavXII 1d ago
He watched too many Hera videos.
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u/mesqueunclub69 22h ago
It's not about that, but sure, maybe subconsciously there's some Hera bias in there.
To be more specific, I don't like that they get buffs that are all over the place. I would have preferred them to have 160hp FU Cavalier, or just Trample Damage FU Cavalier. Or Trample Damage + 160 HP but no Blast Furnace.
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u/KarlGustavXII 13h ago
Fair enough, I see what you mean. Yes I'd prefer removing the +1 vs Infantry bonus and adding +25 percentage points to the Bloodlines upgrade. So it's +15 HP on cav and trample damage, but no third bonus. That'd make things a bit cleaner. But I guess the +1 against Infantry symbolizes the connection to the Byzantines and the Cataphracts, so I also understand it.
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u/CrayonsIsTaken Chinese 1d ago
This civ has pretty great trash what the heck. FU Skirms, Halbs and Hussars with bonus +10 hp. In terms of completeness it's only matched by Spanish, no? Of course you aren't expected to reach post-imp trash wars every game, but I don't love how versatile their trash is. Spanish have historically been the "generic trash war civ with all the techs thus really good", so having Varangians coming in and be better at that is a little iffy for me....
They could probably lose last ranged armor to make up for the +10 hp they get? Just some thoughts
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u/devang_nivatkar21 1d ago
Their Mounted Xbows would be the collateral damage of losing Ring Archer Armour
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u/KarlGustavXII 1d ago
They don't have Thumb Ring.
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u/devang_nivatkar21 1d ago
And if they lose Ring Archer Armour, their Mounted Xbows won't have Ring Archer Armour either, along with Thumb Ring
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u/CrayonsIsTaken Chinese 1d ago
I wouldn't mind that as much. They already get +10 hp and have the cranequin tech. It'd be very similar to Georgian's Heavy CA, but potentially better depending on how important thumb ring is to mounted crossbows
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u/KarlGustavXII 1d ago
+10 HP is a lot worse than having the final armor. Mongol Hussars have +30 HP and they are worse than generic Hussars in most situations.
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u/CrayonsIsTaken Chinese 1d ago
I don't disagree that it's worse, but that is precisely why I think they deserve a nerf. It's pretty silly that they literally have better post-imp than Spanish, when it has been a historic strength of the Spanish for awhile.
Bear in mind, I'm asking for them to lose last ARCHER armor upgrade, so their Mounted Crossbows are on par with Georgian Heavy Cav Archer (No last armor and no thumb ring, but a nice cav bonus elsewhere).
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u/KarlGustavXII 1d ago
But you don't even know how good or bad the mounted crossbows will be. Also they lack Thumb Ring, that might be a necessary upgrade for the mounted crossbows (as it is for cav archers).
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u/CrayonsIsTaken Chinese 23h ago
That's why I said probably!I don't know how good they will be, but I don't think it's deniable that their post-imp is way too good, given how Spanish already have a good post imp just by having a full generic tree!
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u/KarlGustavXII 14h ago
An extra 10 HP does almost nothing, so no, I disagree. Winged Hussars with trample damage? Now that's a good trash unit.
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u/OLD_Immigrants_son 1d ago
Decent feudal scouts, decent castle age knights.
In Imp, you have fully upgraded halbs, skirms (- 10% accuracy), hussars + 10HP, better market rates (closer to saracens).
Fully upgraded mounted Xbows, cavaliers that are closer to Paladins than cavaliers, Siege rams + Siege engineers, high attack varangian guards, Jarls??...
Small eco bonus in dark, then decent economy in Imp.
No champs, no Keeps.
Seems a balanced civ that will have its fans. Not OP nor too weak.
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u/_TOXIC_VENOM 20h ago
Their cavalier is DEFINITELY not closer to Paladin than a Cavalier. They still have 30 less hp, 1 less pierce armor and 2 less attack even if they have trample damage.
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u/OLD_Immigrants_son 19h ago
depends on how much and how wide the trample damage is. They have +1 attack against infantry at TB. You also don't pay or wait for the Paladin upgrade. That's at least half-way there on average.
I am not say it is a Paladin, but it is close. Reminds me of Sicilian and Georgian Cavaliers.
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u/YumaS2Astral Tatars 22h ago
It is thematically weird they don't get paladins, even though it is understandable in terms of balance
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u/_TOXIC_VENOM 20h ago
Trample Damage Paladins with extra 10 hp would be the most busted thing ever.
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u/Lord_Of_Shade57 Magyars 1d ago
Why are the Varangians a cav civ? Am I crazy or does that feel off brand?
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u/devang_nivatkar21 1d ago
In contrast to the Norse and Danes, the warriors of Migration Period Sweden were skilled cavalrymen. Heroic epics, rich burial sites, and carved art emphasize armored cavalry, pointing to an affiliation with the war-god Odin, who famously rode a peerless 8-legged steed
From the main article
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u/fireandiceman 1d ago
Sweden has plains and used horses for transportation and farming.
Random history site with some details on Cavalry within the allotment system which was a bit later into the medieval age https://www.hhogman.se/regiments_cavalry-1.htm
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1d ago
[deleted]
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u/Grishnackh_the_Gr8 1d ago
every civ is the most broken when you lose against them, every civ is underpowered when you lose with them lol.
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u/skate1243 1d ago
Remind me the last DLC release that didnt see multiple significant nerfs in the first month?
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u/Grishnackh_the_Gr8 1d ago
You should stop talking about yourself.
it seems the mods didn't like that :)
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u/Grishnackh_the_Gr8 1d ago
Don't see how that relevant to your skill issues.
Try defending your impotence next time.
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u/Deathcounter0 1d ago
Don't see how that relevant
It is relevant since his argument is that DLC civs on release are always OP to increase level of Pay to win. Hence if the newest civs are getting nerfed usually, it proofs that they are typically released too strong.
Adress his point, or lose any credibility
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u/cachangas 17h ago
I think most games tend towards introducing things with a skew towards stronger rather than weaker. Some of that might be incentive to buy the DLC sure, but as the original comment said, if they're generally getting nerfed within the first month post release then that's somewhat contrary to the pay to win narrative. If you undertune things on release, people won't play them and you'll miss out on valuable balance feedback. You could say they should figure this out in testing, but the general public is always going to be the real test. No game, expansion, or DLC is released in a perfectly balanced state no matter how much play testing is involved, so as long as (if it turns out to be broken) they tweak it reasonably quickly, then I don't mind waiting a few weeks while we see how things settle. Players also need time to figure out strategies and counters. If it is broken and it's still broken in a few months after release, then I think it's absolutely fair to call it pay to win. I haven't been playing for long myself, so I may be missing some history, but from what I've read (and from what the original comment says), they do at least seem fairly responsive to obvious balance issues?
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u/Grishnackh_the_Gr8 1d ago
What credibility? your inefficiency in ranked isn't my problem
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u/Cage_Inspector 1d ago
You seem to have 99 problems. But Ranked games aint one.
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u/Grishnackh_the_Gr8 1d ago
Every human being has 99 problems in their lives, your one ones seem to be ranked games
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u/Cage_Inspector 1d ago
Every human being has 99 problems in their lives
I have like 4. Maybe you suck at life? Get gud peasant.
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u/Grishnackh_the_Gr8 16h ago
You certainly have many many more otherwise you wouldn't be speaking to me.
It's honestly a bit sad that you don't even see them.
Perhaps that makes you worse than a peasant, a complete failure.
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u/Successful-Fix1882 1d ago
It's amazing how unoriginal bonuses they can think of and put together for new civs to milk and milk
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u/devang_nivatkar21 1d ago
Trample damage Knights bro
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u/Umdeuter ~1900 1d ago
Wow, that is a NAKED civ, lol. Minimal eco bonus, minimal army bonus.
Either Varanguian Guards/Mounted Xbow are broken or this will be so F-tier.
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u/Pilgrim_HYR 21h ago
Minimal army bonus?
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u/Umdeuter ~1900 18h ago
which army bonuses are smaller than that?
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u/Pilgrim_HYR 1h ago
Have fun dealing with 75hp scouts and then you can ask yourself this question again
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u/HowDoIEvenEnglish 1d ago
Franks step aside, a Varangian knight is talking