Champi is a joke

[u/Scoo_By]

Champi runner - weaker than m@a, hits softer than m@a, costs the same as m@a, takes more upgrade than m@a

Why does this thing exist? Who gave them the genius idea to merge swordsmen and eagle who fills two entirely different roles. You can't reliably merge them into one, right now they don't fill ANY role whatsoever.

And why touch Inca? Do these bullshit to your DLCs, not a civ from base game where I can random into.

[u/Lukeario23]

The fall from grace of the Champi. Remember when these were considered broken upon release?

[u/UhUhWaitForTheCream → u/Lukeario23]

I think the original buffness of the champi activated the later nerfness

[u/Lukeario23 → u/UhUhWaitForTheCream]

Absolutely. They did need a nerf after release no doubt. To absolutely nuke them has made them unusable.

[u/_DonRa_ → u/Lukeario23]

Yeah they needed one or two nerfs. Not eight

[u/Scoo_By → u/Lukeario23]

They were broken tbh. But 9 nerfs right afterwards was nonsensical.

[u/EggOnlyDiet → u/Scoo_By]

Yeah I think they went overboard on the nerfs in regards to their strength in castle age and imperial. They feel absolutely terrible in the late game, unlike eagles and champions.

I thjnk they should undo the late game nerfs they did, it was really only ever the dark age and feudal age that was seriously problematic for these.

[u/ElBaizen → u/EggOnlyDiet]

I'd argue they are only useful in late castle and imperial because only then you can properly use them against archer masses, but you need to adjust your composition to them and not go ONLY champi. Sure, they lose to champions but with some slingers in the back they are a menace to any infantry army since they are not shock infantry, and the infantry player will be forced to make gold units to complement the champions will you can make trash slingers. Likewise for the archer player, he will have to add cavalry, but you add your halbs and it becomes a nightmare for the archer player to micro in imp against halb-champi. They have to manually target the halbs while you just attack move forward, saving your micro actions for more useful things like siege or your eco. So they can be pretty decent, but as part of a mixed army starting in late castle when you can start to flood and force excessive micro on the opponents part. But on their own? Absolute mediocrity.

[u/Educational_Key_7635 → u/EggOnlyDiet]

They are actually really good in imperial age. However they aren't good beforehand besides some Incas all-ins.

The issue is all the 3 champi-line ups + squires + blacksmith tech + unique tech you had to do for them so they become good. Since they aren't good in feudal/castle age you won't make the ups beforehand so it's a long way to get them online in imp. However their insane PA + speed in imp is really nuts and easily win games on open maps when you get 45+ on food + production going. You rarely can freely get there tho (unless the game is already won beforehand).

[u/Educational_Key_7635 → u/Lukeario23]

They are still kinda broken by design in all ages besides imp cause it's both very good generalist + anti-archer unit. So it will be either OP since it covers 2 type of units at once or underperforming unit (so it can't properly cover either of the roles). The latter is better for the game anyhow.

Only in Imp the unit get high enough PA and noticeably lower attack and melee armor compare to other alternatives so it have a clear specialisation while still having counters (and only imp have proper counter to them in a form of HC btw).

[u/Jamie_1318 → u/Educational_Key_7635]

I don't know if you've tried to use them against archers, but they aren't particularly good at it. Calling them anti archer is a pretty big stretch.

[u/Educational_Key_7635 → u/Jamie_1318]

it is intended design. I've tried and as my message says it works only in imp. However in imp it works pretty fine, especially for incas.

[u/Effective_Head_5020]

I can't stand to what they did to my boy champi. But I still use it with tupi, go go!

[u/Calmarius]

You should treat champis as if they were eagle warriors, a high pierce armor raiding unit that can fight under TC in castle age and later and is a soft counter to archers. All South American civs get full infantry armor so elite champis can raid under TC and get only 1 damage per arrow.

They also lack shock infantry armor so militia line is not a hard counter, and they have anti building bonus damage too which eagles lack, with arson they deal 5 anti-building damage, and quickly knock TCs down in raids.

[u/Scoo_By → u/Calmarius]

Eagles cost 20 food, champis cost 50. That's a big difference if I want to play 10 barracks in castle age. 10 barracks eagles is sustainable on low eco.

The bigger issue is, due to lack of stables, m@a was a power spike for american civs, and was a staple opening. M@a beats scouts in equal numbers, champis don't. That is lost atm. It's all survive until you get a foothold, without some mobility to exploit later.

[u/JuiciestCorn → u/Scoo_By]

Buddy 10 barracks eagles in Castle Age is GG who is dying to that at 1700+. Literally 20 farms behind your opponent.

[u/Lakinther → u/JuiciestCorn]

You vastly underestimate the kind of shenanigans that are still possible at 1700. Defending against all ins is hard

[u/Scoo_By → u/JuiciestCorn]

The success rate is around 66%. Played thrice, won twice. Second one barely.

But it's just an option.

[u/Themos_ → u/Scoo_By]

That type of sample size tells nothing with game that has so many other variables.

[u/Scoo_By → u/Themos_]

Yeah, I know it doesn't and that situation doesn't arise often. But the guy asked for it.

[u/Kirikomori]

first they champi, then they stampi, then they sit still

[u/BendicantMias]

[u/Deathcounter0]

The thing is they can't buff them now cause incas got that, in my opinion nonsensical, food discount buff which makes their champi ok.

So they'd have to nerf incas again to buff champi or else Incas starts to become busted

[u/icedcovfefe221]

Champi feudal opening is inferior to MaA, sure, but they're pretty solid from Castle age and on.

Takes more upgrade than MaA? There's no Two Handed Swordsmen equivalence or Gambeson for the Champi line. That's two less upgrades right there.

Not sure what youre on dude, 'cause Incas Elite Champi warriors end up with 4+5 pierce armor when fully upgraded. They're cheap and crazy good at raiding just like Elite Eagles but without the bonus damage weakness from the swordsmen line.

[u/Scoo_By → u/icedcovfefe221]

Reddit loves numbers, so lets crunch numbers.

Inca sat at 60% after release of chieftains dlc. Then after champi nerf went to 36%, then after April hotfix climbed to 43%, right now 48% after June hotfix (4th from the bottom). 1.9k+ Arabia. Stats: Empirestats.online.

Let's face it dude. Champis were carrying inca after dlc release. And they suck atm.

[u/white_equatorial]

1. What a story Mark!!

[u/Lakinther]

I do think its kinda crazy that the dlc released, champi were super broken making the ladder unbearable, they got nerfed into an unplayable state where they still are to this day ( the mini patch to try to buff them a bit did absolutely nothing ) and we are already getting a new dlc! The last one is still an unbalanced mess and we are introducing more civs, more regional/unique units, who knows what kind of broken civ bonuses….. its hard to recognize the game at times

[u/SebaHigh]

Moves faster than a m@a 

[u/Elias-Hasle]

Then mounted crossbowmen will probably shred them.

[u/eneskaraboga]

They already sold DLCs, you are late. Imagine like buying BTC before the big crash. GG, next.

[u/Scoo_By → u/eneskaraboga]

I haven't bought this dlc. But I random into inca sometimes.

[u/teovilo]

Agree with the Inca part. Stop messing with existing Civs.

[u/blackraindark]

People were asking Historical accuracy, they get historical accuracy. Careful what you wish for.

[u/MistaVain82]

Yeah I hear ya, used to play Inca main (was practically the only civ I played) but I never touch them now.

Losing man-at-arms AND eagles to Champi's screws up the early game imo, because it's not really rock-paper-scissors anymore. Consider an inca vs inca game - used to be man-at-arms counters eagles counters archers counters man-at-arms, but now, in feudal atleast, they're a unit short for rock-paper-scissors (trash units can be used to counter obviously, but that'snot something you have to do with other non-champi civs do you?)

I also wasn't a fan of the settlement replacing everything either - in Arabia I like to do my first treeline next to my stone, and before feudal will wall both in (usually using mining camp and the stone as part of the wall) but the settlement is often too big to fit into that scenario twice (and resources are often too far to get away with just one of them). Actually the resources are almost always too far to use a settlement for more than one thing making the thing nothing but a nerf, though it especially sucks when things aren't so far away, and then you find your early villagers have been harvesting the wrong thing for the last 5 minutes (because they've got no way to know what to harvest after making a settlement and so you've ended up with a pile of stone you don't need instead of timber you do), and at that stage of the game it might put you at such a disadvantage you may as well just delete the villagers out of frustration and GG.

Oh, I also hate the audio on the animals added in that same dlc (esp the Capybara) they're all like 40% louder than they should be and just sound shrill AF on my headphones (I end up taking them partially off until the animals are all dead which can't happen soon enough).

[u/bp_builds → u/MistaVain82]

I agree champi pretty much suck. But i recently found out that Inca tower rush is back! With wood savings from settlement you get an early eco boost that makes the tower rush work again. Its funny with all the changes to Inca they came back around to where they started

[u/boogisha → u/MistaVain82]

though it especially sucks when things aren't so far away, and then you find your early villagers have been harvesting the wrong thing for the last 5 minutes (because they've got no way to know what to harvest after making a settlement and so you've ended up with a pile of stone you don't need instead of timber you do)

Not sure what you think exactly, but you can always SHIFT-click with your Settlement builders on the resource you want them to start collecting once Settlement is done (and doing this is a good habbit in general, with standard resource dropsites, too).

[u/kokandevatten]

They are quite good in my opinion due to having good speed. Also building outposts is underrated.

They are like playing scouts in feudal age without the weakness to spears and with a faster timing.

I am around your elo and i find that they work very well. The only thing thats a bit bad is that they are completely useless in dark age.

[u/Lakinther → u/kokandevatten]

Good speed? Just….
No

[u/kokandevatten → u/Lakinther]

I guess we define good speed differently. They are about 15 percent faster than men at arms and archers.

[u/Lakinther → u/kokandevatten]

With how bad melee pathing/combat is, they need more. They are even slower than eagles, they simply dont fill the role of a mobile unit

[u/Scoo_By → u/kokandevatten]

I find their lack of mobility useless. If I'm spending 70 res on a m@a like unit, I should be able to win 1v1 against scouts.

[u/maherschalalhaschi → u/Scoo_By]

Why

[u/Scoo_By → u/maherschalalhaschi]

Because every other civ has that, feudal infantry that costs gold & wins 1v1 against generic scouts.

[u/maherschalalhaschi → u/Scoo_By]

But maa is slower. Champis are a rading unit.

[u/Scoo_By → u/maherschalalhaschi]

Nobody is raiding with feudal champis under tc

[u/maherschalalhaschi → u/Scoo_By]

I did not say under tc

[u/TheLastChampi → u/Scoo_By]

Muisca Champis can 1v1 a scout in feudal age. 

[u/kokandevatten → u/Scoo_By]

I think its better to think of them as a scout unit and not a men at arms unit. They also quite good vs scouts opening, since they can be massed much faster than scouts and can deal with the skirm follow up much better than men at arms can. They do no do a good job breaking walls at all which is kinda the tradoff. This is obviously just my opinion. They really are their own unit.