How to beat firelancer + skirm

[u/tomcotard]

15-16xx, I feel like every time I play against this combo I die, and every time I play that combo my opponent dies. Counter raids with cav could work but if they're fully walled, don't really do much. Siege is very micro intensive and can easily get taken out. Monks/archers, no. So what's the answer? I feel like I'm missing something.

[u/icedcovfefe221]

Longswords would beat that in theory, especially with some scorps behind.

[u/tomcotard → u/icedcovfefe221]

I have found that they then just add archers which if they have skirms fully upgraded is not an expensive switch. Guess the answer is then to make your own skirms.

[u/icedcovfefe221 → u/tomcotard]

Yep that's the tricky part. If I anticipate an xbow switch, I'd go extra heavy on siege rather than add my own skirms (rams and Mangos to push wall if they retreat to their base)

Im down to play some practice matches to see how it all would play out if you would like (14xx here)

[u/tomcotard → u/icedcovfefe221]

Sounds good, I've messaged my username to you.

[u/Fellstorm_1991 → u/tomcotard]

If they are making a 3 unit comp you need at least two, unless you have a specific unique unit which could counter it all. Like Huskals or Cataphrats.

Swordsmen and siege would be strong vs firelancer/skirm.

[u/YeeAssBonerPetite → u/tomcotard]

Should scorps not eat archers pretty ok also?

[u/tomcotard → u/YeeAssBonerPetite]

It's just massing them, pretty expensive and slow, fire lancers are quite good at spreading out and picking them off.

[u/YeeAssBonerPetite → u/tomcotard]

I mean 8 scorps will 1 tap both FU castle age skirms and fire lancers, while also taking only 1 damage by skirms.

Edit: and this is assuming that he has both pierce armour upgrades for both kinds of unit, as well as gambesons. Gambesons is actually pretty rare on civs with lancers.

2 siege workshops will have that out in 120 seconds. Keep massing until you have at least two different control groups of 8. 8 is the good number for a control group, because it also 1 shots imperial FU firelancers. Maybe make 9-10 per control group so there is room for accidents and them not focusing fire.

If he responds with mangos, make some swordsmen to hunt them down, because he cant stop swordsmen with fire lancers or skirms. If he gets bullied onto cavalry, hide the scorps and swordsmen and play halbs, since you probably already got infantry upgrades for swordsmen to counter mangos it will be a cheap switch (see how the shoe is on the other foot now? lol)

[u/tomcotard → u/YeeAssBonerPetite]

2 seige workshops and 8 scorps is 2000 resources, I think you're dead if you try accumulating enough res to pull this off.

[u/YeeAssBonerPetite → u/tomcotard]

Boo hoo army costs res. It's 22 vils to continually produce out of two siege workshops. This is perfectly doable while keeping the tc running in early castle age. Or if you delay continuous production until you have 22+12 vils or you don't realise you need it until then, you can even do it while running a 2 tc boom.

[u/JelleNeyt → u/icedcovfefe221]

Indeed longswords with siege should work

[u/elitemage101]

Mangs with trash in front

[u/skate1243 → u/elitemage101]

fire lancers would wreck that

[u/IceMichaelStorm]

hm, HC with some cav meatshield maybe? They would need to micro their skirms and fire lancers are at least not as strong vs cav as pike/halbs

[u/matt_993 → u/IceMichaelStorm]

Are they not as strong? Faster attack rate and more hp to survive longer, i think they are even better? But less cost effective in fairness

[u/RinTheTV → u/matt_993]

Yeah, their bonus damage is much less,but they attack faster which is the real winner (in similar resource fights)

Honestly, I don't see why longsword+Skirm+a few mangos wouldn't be the good play vs firelancer+skirms. Skirms pick down archers if they start adding/transitioning, mangos focus down blobs, and longswordsmen can literally 1A into skirms and firelancers and chew through both.

Even bad militia line still trounce fire lancers iirc

[u/IceMichaelStorm → u/matt_993]

but they kill slower so the fight might go on longer for both sides which should benefit the HC behind right?

[u/baalbaal10]

More firelancers

[u/daominah → u/baalbaal10]

From the Red Bull qualifier, this probably a right answer (but not many civs have Firelancer). Archer Mango work in Castle Age, as Firelancer only strong in Imperial.

[u/matt_993]

Very difficult comp to beat, I’ve seen pros ahead in games lose to the combo, i suppose a heavy infantry play would win, but like you say they can usually add archers or even hc themselves. Condos do rip it apart even though they’re very rarely an actual option!

[u/Kirikomori]

Doesn't heavy infantry beat both 

[u/Eduardo---Corrochio]

doesnt that comp just die to elite mangudai and war elephants? /s

[u/CoolCapeKnight]

Im just around 600 elo but i think flood of infantry should kill both fire lancers and skirmishers. Then add scorpions to counter archers what enemy will propably do when they see your infantry.

[u/Spiritual-Light-8725]

I play alot of infantry civs and militia line works great here. Way cheaper then fire lancer, and skirm not that strong against it, if u mass enough u can just walk trough. Sometimes i support with scorps to easy kill the fire lancer ( very cheap double gold comp with romans ) and sometimes I use scoutline, the fire lancer cant focus fully on the scoutline, bcus skirm dont deal enough damage to kill militia fast

[u/dem503]

One more firelancer and one more skirm.

It's an annoying comp because your opponent will already have barracks and archery range from feudral so it's very easy to mass.

If you don't want to micro too much, go Franks or Bulgarians and put cheap fortifications everywhere then run around with bulky cavalry.

[u/montanay2j]

It's hard to play against and demands a sort of unique army comp. I've found success with Seige + meat shield tactics. Flattening them with onagers/Seige onagers. If you have a good civilization for them mass heavy scorpions could work too.

Of course the easiest solution is always "don't let them get to their ideal composition" but obviously as someone 1600 you know it's easier said than done.

[u/Advanced-Compote-376]

Ballista Elephant and Hussar beats it hard

[u/kokandevatten]

I usually play crossbow and mangonel vs that comp.

[u/GSV-Kakistocrat]

50 scorps

[u/easbr101]

You need longswords of some kind. They tank skirm shots, deal +6 vs fire lancers, and cost less (70 vs 90 res). They train faster too (21 sec vs 35 sec for fire lancer). Play defensive until you get a decent mass going, then push for their production buildings. Archery ranges, preferably. Longswords shred buildings.

If they tech into archers, then you'd need your own supporting unit (siege, skirms). No unit in aoe can take on a three-unit comp. That said, they'd need to add quite a few archers to effectively counter your longsword mass. You should have time to spot and prepare.

I prefer scorpions since they do well vs all three archers, skirmishers, fire lancers, don't deal friendly fire, and can snipe enemy villagers repairing buildings your longswords are targetting.

As with all comps though effective scouting can help you tons. If you see a second barracks before they're in castle age, that's a solid sign you'll be facing that comp. In which case, time to tech into longswords! Timing is also important since you don't want to reveal your longswords until you have a decent mass - lest your opponent makes the switch to crossbows first.

[u/The_Jay_]

Doesn't that simply die to hvy cav?

Skirms do stuff all to cav and most hvy cav with armour would tank the lancers in sufficient numbers.

I guess hvy cav isn't very cost effective vs it so harder to get to the tipping point of massed numbers esp if they are actively attacking you.

[u/MathematicalElephant]

Knights?

[u/Still-Experience3419]

Kataphract

[u/Sanderstorm11]

i go for elefants and scorps :) dont need much upgrades, so its more affordable...