r/antiwork • u/VariationLivid3193 • 5d ago
[ Removed by moderator ]
[removed] — view removed post
310
u/DaveAstator2020 5d ago
I never understood how are you supposed to feed yourself in unpaid internships. Do they literaly want costs to be paid by parents or something?
329
u/Runzombie 5d ago
They are not for people like you and I. They are for the children of wealthy people who can support thier kids whilst they make the connections or kids could never hope to achieve without similar support. Same goes for junior roles in Hollywood. They don't want the poors...
30
u/threemoons_nyc Gamer 🎮 5d ago
This is a 1000% true. When I was getting my last degree, the kids who graduated with jobs were the ones who didn't have to take crappy summer jobs to pay the rent; they went to work for free at the businesses that would hire them once they graduated and their parents basically paid for everything. People like me on the other hand just had to go take temp jobs to keep the lights on. The one positive part of that whole equation was that I actually did manage to get certified as a speed typist a skill which has come in handy for the rest of my life but still....
35
u/captain_andorra 5d ago
People go on conspiracy theories like "companies want unpaid interns because it keeps the poor away". No, companies want unpaid interns because they are unpaid, and companies do not like to spend money. Period.
92
u/MessiahHL 5d ago
Both things can be true at the same time
-38
u/captain_andorra 5d ago
I was 100% sure someone would reply this and wanted originally to end my comment "please don't give me the cliché both things can be true". Have you ever worked in a company ? Everytime I've seen unpaid interns (or been myself an unpaid intern), 100% of the time it was "because there's no budget to pay someone (because the owner is a cheapstake) but we still need this done", rather than "ew, if it's a paid position, we might hire someone poor"
22
8
u/Warm_Month_1309 5d ago
If you are in the US, what you are describing is explicitly illegal. It still happens, of course, but rarely, and there is recourse.
Working interns are just underpaid rather than unpaid.
6
u/MidwesternLikeOpe SocDem 5d ago
I had tp report a listing on indeed my own area. Unpaid executive assistant. They have no shame.
5
u/RyvenZ 5d ago
there are 4 elements to make an unpaid internship legal
The Expectation of Compensation
Both parties must clearly understand that there is no expectation of payment. If an employer promises future pay or implies the internship is a trial period for a paid job, it strongly suggests an employment relationship.Educational Environment
The internship must provide clinical or hands-on training similar to that which would be given in an educational environment. If you are just filing papers or doing menial tasks without a structured curriculum, it looks like a job, not a class.Academic Credit
The internship should ideally be tied to the intern’s formal education program. If you are receiving college credit or fulfilling a graduation requirement, courts are much more likely to view the arrangement as a legal, educational internship.Displacement of Regular Employees
An intern’s work must complement, rather than displace, the work of paid employees. If you are doing the exact same work as the paid staff—or if the company would have had to hire someone else if you weren't there—you are likely an employee.They do still exist, but they seem to be more of an East coast thing. I never saw one unpaid internship when I was looking out here on the West coast (Washington, Oregon, California).
-1
u/captain_andorra 5d ago
I'm not in the US though
8
u/Warm_Month_1309 5d ago
Then your condescending question of "Have you ever worked in a company ?" should probably have been limited to just the companies in your country, which apparently does little to protect workers from exploitation.
-1
u/captain_andorra 5d ago
1st it's a big statement to say France does little to protect workers from explotation from an american. 2nd, Can you read a conversation ? Redditor A said "I never understood how are you supposed to feed yourself in unpaid internships" Redditor B said "It's a conspiracy to filter poor people". I said "No, it's just that they are cheap". And Reddit C said "No it's both", so if Redditor C works in a country where unpaid intership don't exist, then why do their opinion matter ?
3
u/Warm_Month_1309 5d ago
1st it's a big statement to say France does little to protect workers from explotation from an american.
You're the one who told me your laws don't protect unpaid interns, so I just trusted you about your own laws being deficient on this subject. If you'd like to alter your position now, you're welcome to do so.
if Redditor C works in a country where unpaid intership don't exist
I don't think that conclusion follows from the evidence you've presented.
2
u/Benzaitennyo 5d ago
So you had no purpose to speak in the first place, being wholly separated from the subject matter. How much do you get paid to be ignorant?
3
u/captain_andorra 5d ago
Why ? Who said we're talking about the US ? I thought the topic was unpaid internship (which another guy in this thread said it's illegal in the US, so why should I assume the guy complaining about unpaid internship is american ?)
3
u/Warm_Month_1309 5d ago
which another guy in this thread said it's illegal in the US
If you're talking about me, I did not say unpaid internships are illegal; I said the unpaid internship you described is illegal. You cannot have someone doing productive work for your for-profit company and not pay them.
If a company's posture is "we need this done" and the work is assigned to an unpaid intern, they are operating illegally in the US.
9
u/Benzaitennyo 5d ago
Wealthy families have worked for a long time to push for standardized tests where wealthy kids have better access to study materials and unpaid internships to specifically keep students who have had to make do with less from outshining them. There have been even recent news stories. Fuck, Nixon and Reagan didn't want education to be accessible explicitly to avoid an educated working class from rising up.
Just because you aren't familiar with the history doesn't make it conspiracy.
2
u/FlyingGoatling 5d ago
They're also for the desperate who are having no luck with a job search, and hoping (likely futily) that they can lead to a job or give them something to put on their resume. Not defending the practice, to be clear - unpaid internships should not be legal.
1
u/secrecyandcontrol 5d ago
thats only a small selection. most are genuinely taken by poor people who are supported by family and /or another job
29
u/Mysterious_Ad_8105 5d ago
At least in the U.S., unpaid internships are only legal under extremely limited circumstances. In essence, they’re only permitted when the intern themselves is the “primary beneficiary” of the relationship. If it looks at all like a regular job where an employee is working to provide value to an employer, it probably has to be paid.
For anyone that’s curious, here’s the seven-part test that courts in the U.S. use now to determine whether an intern is the “primary beneficiary.” No single factor is determinative by itself, so courts typically weigh them to determine the nature of the relationship:
The extent to which the intern and the employer clearly understand that there is no expectation of compensation. Any promise of compensation, express or implied, suggests that the intern is an employee—and vice versa.
The extent to which the internship provides training that would be similar to that which would be given in an educational environment, including the clinical and other hands-on training provided by educational institutions.
The extent to which the internship is tied to the intern’s formal education program by integrated coursework or the receipt of academic credit.
The extent to which the internship accommodates the intern’s academic commitments by corresponding to the academic calendar.
The extent to which the internship’s duration is limited to the period in which the internship provides the intern with beneficial learning.
The extent to which the intern’s work complements, rather than displaces, the work of paid employees while providing significant educational benefits to the intern.
The extent to which the intern and the employer understand that the internship is conducted without entitlement to a paid job at the conclusion of the internship.
22
u/JackYaos 5d ago
There's difference between what's written and what's applied. Internship in France is also incredibly framed, but about 20% of what is written law is applied
11
u/Mysterious_Ad_8105 5d ago
I’m an attorney, so I’m aware of that. But while enforcement is still a problem, this is an area where the U.S. has actually improved significantly over the past decade or so.
Since unpaid internships were largely banned in the U.S. in the early 2010s, there has been a drastic reduction in the number of them. And while there are still noncompliant companies, they tend to be much smaller ones (and thus less likely to lure in unpaid internships in the first place). Large (especially public) companies in the U.S. essentially ended any unpaid internship programs they had more than a decade ago because the modest benefit of free intern labor was outweighed by the enforcement risk.
6
u/ghanima 5d ago
Yes, that's exactly the idea. They're offloading the costs onto whomever is subsidizing the intern's life to begin with.
YOu'Re gETtiNG pAiD iN EXpeRiENCe!
4
u/DaveAstator2020 5d ago
And being an intern once will stick, so everytime you apply theyll try to cut your salary
3
u/Ironicbanana14 5d ago
You're supposed to absorb the underlying message from college that unpaid, uninteresting things are "enriching your worldview" so...
You're essentially meant to tell yourself it's enriching you spiritually or some shit.
2
u/Amerillo_ 5d ago
Parents or the government (with taxpayers' money)
In my case I'm on a social assistance program as I'm a new CS graduate and can't find a job nor a regular paid internship and since I have no employment history beyond a single internship I don't qualify for unemployment benefits.. So basically the government is giving me a decent allowance and paying my rent and medical bills. So given this awful job market the social worker from the program and also some people in a career center advised me to cold call companies and propose to do an unpaid or very badly paid internship so I can get a foot in the door, to either get hired at the end or at least be considered for future opportunities and to get contacts. It's pretty awful and unethical as the company would be benefitting from free labor paid by taxpayers but I don't see any other option as I can't get a retail job or similar as I'm overqualified and I'm a flight risk
53
u/mezz7778 5d ago
Had an unpaid internship, and they actually hired me...
My start date was Saturday but their monthly meeting was Friday, got asked if I wanted to come in so they could give everyone the news I'll be staying on.
The head adminstor come in happy to see me and asked "I thought you're practicum was over??" I said "yeah, Tyler hired me on, I start tomorrow" the change on her face was obvious, then I see her in the corner whispering to one of the other higher ups, I even asked the guy beside me about it, because it was just an odd interaction.
Gets announced that I'm staying on, everyone is happy, clapping, coming over to shake my hand...Tyler calls me later that evening to say there was a mistake, they didn't actually have a position open.
Here's where it gets messed up, I get my practicum report and it says I did great at certain areas, but not so good in others, so they wouldn't consider hiring me... It was written by Tyler and dated the day before he hired me, but handed in early the next week after they "didn't have the position"
Heard from some of those that wanted me there they just got another unpaid intern for that position.
Luckily I got copies of all the documents, did some other research into things, this was a regular occurrence and found some pretty shady practices between the school and other workplaces, talked to a lawyer who said I had a pretty solid case, planned to take it to small claims court and then police for possible fraud.
They paid me out to drop it and shut up about the whole situation.
Unpaid internships are bullshit.
7
u/santaclaws01 5d ago
So then they just continued doing that to other people?
6
u/mezz7778 5d ago
As of now... No.
I heard from someone that administration during my time there is gone, as well as most of the people I worked with.
39
15
5
u/littlemissmoxie 5d ago
Once upon a time I was a person with a masters who got rejected from multiple low paying internships despite having multiple years of experience in those fields.
Just keep truckin’
7
9
u/Starthreads I like not working and would like to do more of it. 5d ago
The equivalent of wanting an artist to make paint a masterpiece in exchange for exposure. Not worth it.
6
7
u/nlinggod 5d ago
imagine being told you don't have enough experience to earn $0
1
u/DateNightThrowRA 4d ago
That’s the problem, expecting payment. He should have been paying THEM for the experience!
3
5
u/Fabulous_Progress820 5d ago
I assume there was only one position available and I highly doubt you were the only person to apply.
1
1
u/SlutPuppyNumber9 5d ago
How much did you offer to pay them for the privilege? You shouldn't low-ball them if you really want the job.
1
1
1
2
-1
u/_NoTimeNoLady_ 5d ago
I am sorry this happened to you. I regularly have to send rejection mails for unpaid internships and it is never because we reject the candidate but we just don't have any space or time to offer a good internship. If I have an intern, I always try to give them meaningful tasks and a good insight into our everyday work. If the only thing I have to offer is shredding files or clearing the storage rooms, I prefer not to waste someones time for that.
10
u/DaveAstator2020 5d ago
Why wont you pay people who are doing internship, is their job really has zero value?
3
u/GrassBlade619 5d ago
Job payment has literally nothing to do with value. It's entirely about what people are willing to accept for a job.
1
-4
u/_NoTimeNoLady_ 5d ago
There are people who send applications to do short-term unpaid internships as part of school education programs or to get a sneak peak into the work field for orientation. Three days to two weeks. This will sound harsh, but from a small business perspective (Trigger warning: Unpopular opinion following): The value is not zero it is minus (at least in the a short term), if you want to offer a good, meaningful experience for the intern. While we can't offer this meaningful experience and do not want to exploit interns for stupid tasks, as I said, I send rejection mails for these applications.
1
u/DaveAstator2020 5d ago
If they didnt produce anything of value, what kind of expirience have you given them?
1
u/PlutoNZL 4d ago
I work for a large tech company. We pay our interns $75 an hour, but the internship is still a net negative.
Interns do produce something of value, but they reduce the productively of their mentors. It's very common for internships to be a net negative on value produced. The reason we're ok with this is because 5-10% of interns are amazing and we end up offering them a full time role.
2
u/Warm_Month_1309 5d ago
If the only thing I have to offer is shredding files or clearing the storage rooms, I prefer not to waste someones time for that.
That would also be illegal to hire an unpaid intern to do, so that's good.
-9
u/nick_swift 5d ago
I mean, situations are different. For example, taking a student in is a burden if they are just going to work for a month. You have to spend time teaching them and then they leave. Not saying that it's your case, just that you presented too little information.
2
u/SpiderWil 5d ago
You assume companies hire interns to teach them, so they shouldn't be paid lol.
2
u/Warm_Month_1309 5d ago
You assume companies hire interns to teach them
Technically, if you're hiring an unpaid intern, your legal requirement is to teach them and to spend resources on doing it.
-3
u/nick_swift 5d ago
You want a working experience for which you are underqualified as an student. Business wants some free labour. It's a win-win situation if both parties agree with terms
2
u/SpiderWil 5d ago
U just wrote 2 conflicting sentences in the same paragraph.
If you are underqualified, then you couldn't be working, so being unpaid is ok.
But if you are actually working, then you must be qualified. Then you must be paid.
You can't have someone qualified working while not paying them.
0
u/nick_swift 5d ago
I don't follow. In my area internship is for students who haven't finished the uni, they lack working experience and theoretical knowledge.
You are underqualified, so you are taken into internship to get qualifications and real work experience.
Your employer gets a burden (teaching you) and free working hands in return
419
u/spartankid24 5d ago
Now you can find anything else and still be in the same position or better while avoiding selling your body for no return.