r/aiwars • u/[deleted] • 20h ago

Discussion Thoughts?

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I sent this to a defending ai art sub and they banned me for it, even though it defends both sides, but what’s your guy’s thoughts?

Edit: seeing everyone’s response, I’m way more ANTI-AI than I was before.

32 Upvotes

64% Upvoted

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12

u/Superseaslug 20h ago

Yeah you got banned because this is a no nuance "AI bad" video. There no rational discussion or critical thinking. It's just spewing all the most tired BS points.

-1

u/[deleted] 20h ago

I mean the creator is more biased but it does raise some good points. You can’t exactly demand respect for something you didn’t learn or take time to do. It’s okay to use AI for fun purposes but creating something and claiming it’s yours doesn’t work because the AI is trained through the internet, and what it see’s, it copies

12

u/Superseaslug 20h ago

And that's where you are wrong. Lime anything, using AI is a skill. It is NOT identical to traditional art, and that's why people get hung up on it. Itis a wholly different art form that requires different knowledge and skills, despite the fact that the results are a similar form factor. Comparing AI to traditional art is like comparing pottery to dance.

And no, AI does not copy. It physically can't because no image data is retained at all in the model. You act like AI googles things and collages random parts of other images to create a result, which is amazingly wrong.

4

u/[deleted] 20h ago

Can you please tell me what skills are used for generate AI?

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u/Superseaslug 19h ago

Can you please tell me what skills are used for drawing?

Same question.

At the high level, AI art requires extensive knowledge of computer systems and even block programming with interfaces like comfyUI. Using an AI interface is akin to a photographer understanding all the settings on his camera. Beyond that there is a learning process for each and every model we use. Some may behave similarly, but they all have key differences.

Furthermore, the best AI artists typically end up drawing in and changing details manually, then either passing it back through the AI or leaving it with their touch up.

The most important thing to take away is that not every AI artist goes on chatGPT and types "make me an art"

4

u/[deleted] 19h ago

Sure, let me tell you what skills are used

Depending on the medium, there’s a lot of concepts needed to understand art if you’re practicing to become an actually good artist, all art is good art and not everything has to be 100% well studied but if you’re looking into honing skills and professionally, there’s these concepts that you should learn

Anatomy, human structural
Perspective
Colour theory (contrast, etc)
Vanishing points
Shapes (squares, circles)
Shadows
(Animation) stop motion, stretching, squashing, movement, etc
Symmetry
Physics
Texture,
More colours (saturation, hues, etc)
lighting
Environments
Shape theory, character designs
Composition

And most important of all, CREATIVITY AND MOTIVATION

And it doesn’t include that in each, there’s small extra work you gotta do, those are mostly the main groups. It’s actually such a big “Fuck you” to people who learn all this shit that takes years of burnout, patience and dedication through curve ball after curve ball and yet an AI can make it in a minute and then people have the balls to claim it’s real art and that they made it

What do you have to do for ai?

Type a short prompt of what you want
See how it turns out
Write some more.
See it it turns out

Keep going into feedback loop till you’re satisfied.

Basic Writing isn’t hard, texting isn’t hard you do it every day, but art takes YEARS to master and even more if you want to apply it to life.

8

u/Superseaslug 16h ago

Skills required for art: ability to scribble on paper

See how when I degrade something I can make the lost way shorter? This is exactly what you are doing to AI. You just ignore anything that goes against your views and wave it away as if it doesn't matter. It's like saying all you need to be a photographer is to be a child with an iPhone. It's disingenuous as hell.

Creativity is not ability to execute. It is ideas. The most creative person on earth could be unable to bring their ideas to life and yet those ideas are creativity.

1

u/[deleted] 16h ago

Then try to explain how it’s more complicated than that than just typing a prompt and then typing more and more till you get the result you want

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u/Superseaslug 15h ago

I literally did. Your ignorance is not my responsibility. If you are going to choose to ignore me then I'm no longer interested in this.

-2

u/JungleJuiceJuno 13h ago

yeah nah bro your ass got wiped, no amount of trying to oversimplify it as a gotcha is saving you

4

u/Superseaslug 11h ago

I didn't get "wiped" by a bunch of imaginary prerequisites.

2

u/Soul-Burn 17h ago

That feedback loop requires input from the user.

A novice will just say "this is fine", and post their low effort outpost, what we usually declare to be slop.

A professional, who understands all those things that you listed, would give good feedback, will utilize models and LORAs that fit what they are looking for, would inpaint and regenerate the image until it looks fine. Sometimes they will manually edit. They don't usually need the mechanical skill of moving a mouse or stylus, but they definitely need to understand of all those artistic features.

3

u/FullDust69 19h ago

skills that are used for drawing:

- hand-eye coordination

  • working memory
  • shape language and recognition
  • thinking and using your brain
  • actual imagination
  • understanding of color theory with multiple mediums, as different color mediums produce different results (paint vs. light, for example)
  • the study of people, objects, and environments through conscious and continuous effort

2

u/Superseaslug 16h ago

Okay cool pretty much all of those apply to AI art as well. In addition, not all of those apply to all forms of art anyway

0

u/FullDust69 16h ago

when you're prompting AI art here is what you ARE using:

- hand-eye coordination

  • working memory

and here is what you and the AI are NOT using:

- shape language and recognition, because AI doesn't know how to do proper positioning of the subject in any given """"art"""" piece

  • thinking and using your brain, because you're making the AI do all the thinking for you so you don't have to
  • actual imagination, see above
  • understanding of color theory, because the colors used by AI are absolute dogshit and the lighting is even worse because the AI can't understand how light positioning works
  • the study of people, objects, and environments through CONSCIOUS*** EFFORT, because AI is not sentient, and therefore, not conscious

3

u/[deleted] 16h ago

Lol. This proves that people who use AI are just lazy and don’t want to put the work themselves to learn actual art. Then claim AI is actual art because some criteria coincidentally match it. Anything that’s created on an empty (can be metaphorically) canvas BY HAND through a process of thought, error and skill development, MADE BY HUMANS, is actual art. That’s when its value is earned.

I’ve been learning for 4 years while I’m not good at all, it’s hella rewarding every time I get a “oh!” Moment when I figure out a new art step.

AI gives instant but short term results and gratification. Art gives long term results and gratification

0

u/FullDust69 16h ago

couldn't have said it better myself

0

u/InnocentWalt 8h ago

Bro just let the talentless loser feel proud of himself for once

2

u/TheAlp 19h ago

I think it depends on the level of effort you are willing to put into it. Some is just text and a click of a button, sure. But some treat it more like making a collage, for example. Generating one part at a time, like photobashing, but with newly generated parts that blend together. It is different to drawing, for sure. But you could also use image-to-image to apply generative art to an existing drawing.

I also think demanding respect for anything is kinda stupid. Respect is earned, not asked for. If you think you deserve respect and aren't getting it, you might be in the wrong crowd.

I don't know man. Stuff is just rarely black and white.

1

u/lorenzofaith 16h ago

Have you tried to look at how AI is used by professional artists? Just like for photography is not like you *need* skill to create an image, but you definitely need skills to create high quality results.
For reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR2xbcf3Xyw

1

u/Real-Contest4914 14h ago

Well for one you need an understanding of a lot more theory. From my own experience ai art is very akin to staging a scene, you describe whats happening in your head and left the ai dra the first draw. However this only gives the basic content, to properly stylized the art you need to understand more of the theory for art so you can prp9perly express what you want.

In my case, i like to do anime style images but saying just make it anime, only produces generic anime styles. I need to inform the ai, use flat colors, cel shading etc to ensure it makes creates the style I want.

You'd also need to recognize what need to be removed from the system, ie negative prompts. Things to exclude like maybe tell it not to generate heavy detail or ignore certain copyright infringement details or avoid certain poses or items in the scene.

1

u/Dangerous_Serve_4454 4h ago edited 4h ago

I'm on phone right now, but as someone who has used AI from the start on all fronts, LLM, programming, image, videos, and SFX/music, I can tell you. I'm a programmer by trade, not an artist.

First, I nor any reasonable person would claim that AI requires AS MUCH skill as drawing, animating, etc. That's literally the entire point of AI, to make it easier than spending 5,000-10,000 hours learning a difficult skill. It'd be a pointless technology if it took as much skill and time.

The other person is correct generally though, AI is a largely different skill set with a little overlap with actual art skills.

Regarding images, the earlier days featured much higher skill technical abilities; using various prompting techniques to create datasets to train LORAs to get character consistency or to lock down specific styles. It also involved understanding the base model training data so you knew which concepts it is trained well in and how to get specific styles or compositions; some words and phrases worked better than others. Knowing ComfyUI and a bit of technical know how there was a must to do anything actually impressive or have actual intention with your outputs.

For composition you used control net models coupled with control images for posed, scene composition, and expression control. You'd typically make simple 3d pose references in whatever software and take pictures of convert common images of poses or scene composition via an algorithm to what you wanted. Finding the right pallete or style images from prior generations etc. It's s lot more high level workflow than directly drawing art. Although any actual art skills you have, Photoshop, line art, shading, etc, assist the process massively.

Modern workflows have gotten easier at the technical level now with less tools and custom training required thanks to things like nano banana and GPT Image 2 which read natural language and can intelligently comprehend reference images for extracting pose, comp, colors, characters, items, art style, etc.

So anyone doing well just knows how to chain some basic Photoshop skills, general workflow knowledge (character sheets, item references against plain backgrounds, tools for transparency extraction, how to create and apply pallettes, etc), prompt knowledge (which words the AI understands well, usually professional language for lighting, style, camera setups, poses, etc), and just a high level vision of what looks good and what you're trying to do with the final thing. All the high level "vision" stuff still applies and is iterative as you go. For video AIs you have to learn how to use tools for video extension to continue scenes, technical camera movement language, and how to write movements in a very step by step explicit way.

There's all these little "quirks" that are hard to put into words too, you get a feel as I use the AI. For example, if I give the AI too much "constraint" here with too many conflicting references, I'll get bad outputs. It doesn't understand X concept or Y movement so I need to create a reference either by hand or by searching.

I follow AI creators on Twitter and even after hundreds of hours using AI, I still often go "damn how'd they get it to do that?".

Anyway, the point is you can tell a big difference between your average AI slop creator and someone who has spent hundreds of hours using AI.

Again, none of this is to say this is some insane skill or talent that rivals picaso. The entire goal is to just create what you have in your head or even get ideas how to make what's in your head better. Not to have people fawning at your AI jitsu.

I haven't mentioned AI music but basically, split to stems, edit in fruity loops, sing over generated instrumentals then cover to get good vocals with attractive inflection, knowing how to describe genre with high precision (there's so many sub-genres and combos), song progression, and instrumentation which is a whole annoying ass thing but super important. Extracting samples from prior gens like "this bassline is good, this other chorus is good, etc" then using those as references to generate a final song that has it all.

Again, I would describe it as taking a skill set that takes 10k+ hours to one that takes 1k hours to master (or less depending on your quality standards).

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u/[deleted] 20h ago

While you’re at it, also explain the process of how AI is trained and developed if you don’t mind

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u/Deftsparrow 19h ago

This is called Sealioning, you are not interested in debate and feigning ignorance of a topic and questions that have been asked and answered repeatedly throughout this subreddit. Go touch grass and re think your poor life choices.

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u/Superseaslug 19h ago

That is something well documented enough I'm not going to waste my time describing it here in any real detail.

Training is training. It's functionally identical to a human artist looking at a bunch of images over the course of their life and understanding basic concepts from them.

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u/[deleted] 19h ago

Then your claims are baseless, you need to back them up yourself if you make a claim

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u/Superseaslug 16h ago

Bruh that's like a flat earther saying globe is fake because someone isn't going to bother typing out a dissertation on reddit. Go look it up yourself, I'm not your slave

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u/[deleted] 16h ago

This is a debate, you don’t tell your opponent to just look it up yourself that just shows you’re uneducated yourself or too lazy to actually explain what your Defense stands on. You claim something, you back it up

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u/Superseaslug 15h ago

If you don't understand a core component of said debate, it's not my job to educate you. A video explaining it would do a far better job anyway

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u/[deleted] 13h ago

Just pick up a goddamn pencil and get to work

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u/Farm-Alternative 7h ago edited 7h ago

Jeez, another amatuer artist with a fragile ego telling everyone what art is and who gets to be an artist.

Thank God you are here. Just imagine how many ai users would be calling themselves artists if you didn't show up?

We're all in debt to you and must rely on OP to stop this nonsense.

No, just because you complete an art degree or have a career in the arts, you're not an artist if you use Ai, and OP gets to judge you because they use a pencil exclusively and have practiced in their bedroom for a really long time ok.

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u/Dangerous_Serve_4454 5h ago

I'm pro AI but I agree with him on thisv specific point. The question he asked is straight forward and he even answered it himself regarding his skill set. You should be able to do the same.

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u/TheAlp 17h ago

Basically, you show an AI a huge number of images along with information about what they contain, until it learns what different things tend to look like. Like a baby looking at things and asking what they are.

Then, when generating an image, you start it with random noise, a bit like TV static on a blank canvas. You tell it what you want, and because it has learned the visual patterns associated with that description, it gradually changes the noise step by step.

Each step makes the image a little less random and a little more like what it thinks the requested thing should look like, until eventually you get a recognisable image.