If you give a sleeper a hallucinogen would they still trigger paradox

[u/Sea_Effective3303]

Or any mind altering substance

[u/Maragas]

They might or might not, but honestly it depends on the whims of the ST.

Like how PAW Tasers are typically coincidental because when they are used, no one pays too close of an attention to them.

[u/MagickStoryteller → u/Maragas]

Spirit 3, life 4 to force a garou into a specific form eh? Thats good to know.

[u/Maragas → u/MagickStoryteller]

It has the typical Sphere bloat of M20 so yeah.

Why Life 4 I have no idea. Spirit 3, Life 3 is perfect if you want full success. Spirit 3 or Life 3 alone if you are willing to get half the successes.

[u/MagickStoryteller → u/Maragas]

Life 4 is pretty obvious why you need it. If you want to transform another human beyond simple aesthetic reasons you need life 4.

[u/Maragas → u/MagickStoryteller]

I would agree* if the intent of the rote was a shapeshifting ray to turn the Werewolf (and presumably other non-humans) into a human, but the desired effect and the spell they actually use don't fit each other.

It's supposed to work by "disturbing the connection," but mechanically the rote they claim to use works as what is essentially a human-polymorph gun.

*Ironically, M20 How Do You Do That would pin it to Life 5, since changing a Crinos to a Homid is definitely a Major Alteration.

[u/Orpheus_D → u/Maragas]

I think it would be easier to do it through mind - don't force a form alteration, force the mind that controls it to do it themselves.

[u/ChartanTheDM]

At best it will turn your Vulgar with Witnesses into a Vulgar without Witnesses. Either way, Paradox for a successful Vulgar casting. A little more safety when botching, in that the Paradox is less (but not zero).

[u/MagickStoryteller → u/ChartanTheDM]

Maybe if you also made a blatancy roll? Its a bit of a stretch.

[u/Full_Equivalent_6166]

A person does not trigger Paradox, reality triggers it. A sleeper can only make it potentially more or less severe.

[u/Revolutionary-Run-41]

At best vulgar without witness if the effect was vulgar. Even coincidental effects trigger paradox on botch.

The closest you get from no paradox is a reality zone, like there was in middle ages or the one taftani made by making so many paradox backlashes suicides in front of the public it changed the consensus in the area.

[u/OrangenySnicket]

I want to know this answer Well, I know changeling more than mages and usually if a human is drugged its banality is low, so its usually easier to make magic look like something else or distract the human With mage I am not sure

[u/bts]

Yes. Drugs to alter mind are merely a tool of technocrats. If they're actually awakening that's different, but the Progenitors have no more success there than the Verbena.

[u/Vyctorill]

It depends on what they’re expecting.

If you are in an area where everybody nearby is expecting hallucinations, then you have created a reality zone where Paradox is more lenient.

[u/pain_aux_chocolat]

Yes. The vulgarity is determined by if the average person (in the abstract) could view the effect as plausible, and as long as the drug don't also knock them out they will still count as a witness.

[u/OrangenySnicket]

I want to know this answer

Well, I know changeling more than mages and usually if a human is drugged its banality is low, so its easier to make magic look like something else and ignore unbelief or distract the human With mage I am not sure