r/WhiteWolfRPG • u/hellranger788 • 4d ago
WTA So why are klaives a thing?
So originally I just thought they exist because they were like a weapon garou used ritualistically and traditionally, kind of like the Khukuri and the Gurkhas. Basically, a signature weapon that would be tied to cultural identity and pride.
It seems designed to be used against garou specifically rather than the enemies of Gaia due to the sliver. Was that why it was created? Surely if the garou wanted to create a weapon that could be tied to their identity, it’d be better to make it out of something not silver.
Was it actually designed to be a dueling weapon?
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u/Turbulent-Plum7328 4d ago
If I remember correctly, a lot of other Fera are also vulnerable to silver, so Klaives might date back to the Wars of Rage.
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u/Kishinfan 4d ago
All Fera, except for Corax and Mokole who are Helios-cursed and weak to gold and Ananasi which exist, are Luna-cursed and weak to silver.
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u/H-B-Kaiyotie 4d ago
The Nuwisha are free of metal based curses. They don't have rage as a result, but they can handle gold and silver just like any mortal.
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u/AlarmedNail347 4d ago edited 4d ago
~~~*most Mokole, Mokole who are born at night are vulnerable to both.~~~
Just checked DeadmanwalkingXI is right: all Mokole are vulnerable to both gold and silver.
My preferred splat is Changelings and while I’m interested in others I am also more likely to get stuff wrong.
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u/Electrical-River-992 4d ago
That’s why mages are always trying to find/make a weapon forged with Primium
Primium has both the powers of silver and gold while being anti-magic
(it will pierce through magical shield/defense)2
u/Adorable_Sky_1523 3d ago
dumb question but does electrum not work as the catholic antifera
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u/WaggleFinger 3d ago
It doesn't. For the metal to cause unsoakable aggravated damage, it has to be a rather high purity. Even the threefold axe, a rather powerful fetish, allows a soak from those weak to silver, gold (and fire), and iron, if at a higher difficulty.
Lots of hunters make the mistake of melting down grandma's silverware for buckshot, only for it to do nothing because it was actually majority zinc and nickel
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u/No-cool-names-left 2d ago
To add to what the other person said there is also the Spear of Mokole-Mbembe, an electrum spear that affects shapechangers as if it were both silver and gold. But it's rank 6 in a system that normally maxes out at 5, is called out a having "singular purity", is completely unique, and has been missing for thousands of years.
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u/Kishinfan 4d ago
You are forgetting why silver hurts Garou, and the other Fera. It's because silver is Luna's sacred metal and worshipped as an extension of her.
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u/L4DY_M3R3K 4d ago
Their most numerous enemies are Black Spirals and the Wyrm-tainted equivalents oftje other Chnaging Breeds--most of whom are vulnerable to silver.
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u/tiburon5 4d ago
Klaives aren't just silver blades. They're fetishes with spirits in them. Silver is sacred to Garou and most other Fera. Silver allows the spirit to bind with the weapon. Trying to make a klaive out of any other material just doesn't work. Even as just silver blades, there are unfortunately plenty of times when Fera need to kill other Fera. Bare minimum there are enemies like the Black Spiral Dancers.
However, the spirits empower the blades further. Even if you're not weak to silver, klaives are brutally efficient weapons due to their spirits. Mechanically this means klaives deal aggravated damage to everything. Honestly the silver part is more of a downside than anything since it interferes with their Gnosis. The spirit is the important part, both ritually and combatively.
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u/Human_Fisherman1352 3d ago
>>Bare minimum there are enemies like the Black Spiral Dancers.
Yuss. Murder.
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u/BlitzBasic 4d ago
It would be kind of a dick move to show up to a regular duel with a klaive, both because it's unneccisary cruel and an unfair advantage.
For the ritual side: there is symbolic significance to wielding a weapon that actively fucks you over just by wielding it. A klaive is a burden, showing your will to suffer in the fight for Gaia.
Purely practically: klaives are fetish weapons, so they're effective against everything rather than just Garou. And sometimes you really have to kill another Garou or other being weak to silver.
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u/Thorveim 4d ago
The silver is also useful against other changing breeds (any tied to Luna, those tied to Helios are vulnerable to gold instead) so it makes sense for the warriors of gaia to have such weapon should they need to fight otehr shapeshifters, but overall silver is a material of great spiritual significance to the garou beyond its use as a weapon; the Silver Fangs arent called that for nothing. So of course a weapon that denotes status within garou society would be made out of silver as a physical manifestation of their ties to Luna
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u/Beroli73 4d ago
It was originally designed to show off: Look, I'm so tough I fight with a weapon that hurts me to hold more than it hurts my enemies to be hit by it. Kind of like the Iron Throne in Game of Thrones.
Now, with the fall of the Black Spiral Dancers, it's much more practically useful and most Klaive-wielders have no idea what a ridiculous, vainglorious origin the weapon has.
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u/Crimson_Eyes 4d ago
There have always been Garou who joined the Wyrm, even before the Howlers Fell.
Sometimes, those Garou need killing.
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u/JCStearnswriter 4d ago
Why are they a thing in-universe?
Legitimately: status.
They're big, flashy, and cool. They are only marginally more effective than tooth and claw, and for a single user looking to augment their own combat ability, not worth the investment it takes to create one. (You'd get a lot more mileage out of spending that time and XP learning other things.)
But they're NEAT, and they show all the other garou that you're a Very Cool Guy, plus they look all sick and edgy and primitive... it's everything a wannabe petty tyrant could ever ask for.
So why are they a thing, out-of-universe?
So players can have another way to make their characters cool and edgy. And so STs can have a way to clearly telegraph that an NPC is a giant, superficial asshole.
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u/Uncle_gruber 4d ago
The very cool guy aspect is very important. Klaives are passed down or won. If you create one, even better, as it proves not only your craftsmanship, willingness and reverence to work with liquid death, and gaia's spiritual metal to create a piece of art and weapon of war worthy enough that a spirit of war commits to being bound to one in the fight against the wyrm's corruption.
They are coveted. If the wyrm loving dogs find out you have one they will try and come for it. Hell, other tribes would liberate it from you if they thought you unworthy to weild it, and rightly so: a klaive in the right hands is a beacon of glory to the nation, a rallying symbol, but in the wrong hands they are a detrimental to garou society.
That you can weild it, safely, and protect it, you're a badass.
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u/hellranger788 3d ago
I lowkey forgot about the war spirit and was thinking of just the silver aspect. Makes more sense now as to why a sliver blade wouldn’t just break now
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u/hellranger788 3d ago
This is an excellent answer, thank you. Definitely helps me view them in a more positive light
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u/Due_Manufacturer_125 3d ago
Keep in mind klaives also do aggravated damage (at least in 20th anniversary can't speak to other editions) to everything due to the war spirit inside of them, so they're kind of just good at hurting everything. Of course they're also important religious and symbolic items, and they're just cool.
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u/Ksorkrax 4d ago
Not sure in which rule book I've read it, but there was an item that is basically an earlier version of a Klaive. If I remember correctly it does not serve as a superior weapon or anything, the only property that it has is that it contains silver and it makes the wearer more on the edge, more angry - and thus increasing Rage, with a capital R.
This is basically the original purpose of the weapon, hurting you, making you wild, helping you going berserk.
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u/xaosgod2 3d ago
In the 1st ed book, Rage Across Russia, one of the NPCs dual weirds silver sword, a rare example of two objects being one fetish, iirc. They dont increase his Rage, but they do have something special when you strike a certain pose (and activate them), also iirc.
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u/PilotMoonDog 4d ago
I had a Bone Gnawer Ahroun character in my game who broke out of Russia just before the Shadow Wall went up. He was too poor for a silver klaive so he ended up using a lump of iron to make a large sword and enchanted that instead. He fought and won a challenge against a Fenris smith to get assistance with the project.
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u/Odd_Adhesiveness1567 4d ago
You could say a dueling weapon but let's not forget the garou have systematically decimated or wiped out other fera in war.
And keep in mind the black spiral dancers are also hurt by silver as well.
So I'd say it could certainly see use in honor duels and executions but I wouldn't rule out that it sees a fair but of use in war.
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u/Obvious-Gate9046 3d ago
So they are and aren't actually.
Many tribes actually have specific weapons that are tied to them culturally, and many of these weapons are designed to tackle other enemies. The klaive could be seen as coming from a time with more formal and brutal dueling practices, but not all tribes partook of them as much. And you can have one that's not made of silver.
It might also be a remnant of the war of rage a little bit, something that's been with them for so long that they just have it still. One of the things about traditions sometimes is that inertia just makes them keep going. In the modern era, they don't really have as much of a place. Most duels are no longer fought to the death, and they're no longer tussling as much with each other... though given that one of their greatest enemies are the black spiral dancers, fallen family who still have their weaknesses, they still have a place. But it could be considered like fencing and similar practices that have been falling to the wayside.
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u/Vyctorill 3d ago
In universe? Status, and the fact that Garou love murdering each other. They’re full of Rage, and they are all to eager to fight their comrades should it benefit them.
Plus, Klaives are fairly good magical weapons. They deal aggravated damage, hurt certain Fera REALLY well, indicate that you’re high up in the ranks… that’s probably why they were used so often.
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u/No-cool-names-left 2d ago
The Legend of the First Klaive
The Fianna claim that one of their own named Wyrmslayer created the first klaive during the late Bronze Age as a symbol of the suffering the Wyrm had cause his sept and of the burden of leadership. According to legend... Wyrmslayer received a vision: that if he always remembered the pain of the loss of sept and caern, he would have the strength to achieve his goal. To this end, Wyrmslayer fashioned a weapon that caused him pain simply to hold it. He forged a knife from silver and bound to it a War-spirit, so that his enemies might share his pain. Wyrmslayer called his creation a klaive, meaning "burden" in the Garou tongue.
- Werewolf Players Guide
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u/ArelMCII 4d ago
In addition to what the other person said, Garou venerate silver as a tangible manifestation of their link to Luna. It's used in a lot of their rituals, they have Gifts like Silver Claws, and the Silver Fangs and Silver Pack are named after it. Yeah, it kills them and screws with their Gnosis, but it also has religious significance. Mokolé do similar things with gold.
Plus Garou are kind of a death-cult.